Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[yeaher]

Orr, Lemieux, Howe, and Gretzky will not be unseated by anyone currently playing in the NHL. Recency bias is normal in sports, so I get the allure of saying McDavid is the 2nd best of all time.

Orr completely redefined an entire position and is the best all-around player I've ever watched. Lemieux is the most gifted offensive player in league history. It's hard to fathom what both players would have accomplished beyond what they did had they not have to deal with major injuries/health problems.

Howe is the second best all-around player ever. Gretzly is right behind Mario when it comes to offensive prowess.

McDavid is not anything special as an all-around player and he is not as good offensively as either Mario or Wayne. No way he will end up top-4 ever.

I will say I liked your post, but the whole premise that you have come up with seems absurd when some people don't even have Howe 4th. And also I love Lemieux but how does him scoring a thousand less points and 250 less goals give him more offensive prowess than Gretzky? Something we see in them I guess, but I guess you could argue anything at that point when you just throw the numbers out the window

 

[WalterLundy]

I will say I liked your post, but the whole premise that you have come up with seems absurd when some people don't even have Howe 4th. And also I love Lemieux but how does him scoring a thousand less points and 250 less goals give him more offensive prowess than Gretzky? Something we see in them I guess, but I guess you could argue anything at that point when you just throw the numbers out the window

Essentially the argument from big Mario Lemieux fans (I am one that doesn’t do this by the way) is that his size and skill combo we haven’t seen before or since. I can agree with that to a degree but when I get off the train is when we look at actual offensive production whether raw totals or adjustments for peak, prime or even sample sizes of games played or ages. When you look there it’s Gretzky every time.

When people say Mario Lemieux is the most offensively talented player ever I don’t get upset because I usually recognize that fans are talking about his size and skill combo. It’s when production is brought up that I can’t get behind because it isn’t in his favor there. To me a distinction has to be made and there rarely is. Definitely second in that production regard though.

 

[CTHabsfan]

Did you watch? You can't even compare what Mario had to endure vs beloved wayney

Did I compare what Lemieux and Gretzky had to endure?

FYI, I have a Mario Lemieux jersey. I do not have a jersey of "beloved wayney".

 

[Fourier]

Doesn’t mean he didn’t get hit ever, but who are we kidding here?

He didn't get hit that much because he was incredibly illusive, not because guys did not try. Part of this was his ridiculous vision and on ice awareness. The other was his ability to change direction almost instantaneous.

One thing Gretzky had to deal with more than anyone I have ever seen is players being assigned to do nothing but shadow him wherever he went on the ice. Great players will get this but not to the extent that Gretzky did. Today teams rely more on systems than on shadows. But of all of the top players today, McDavid probably gets assigned shadows more than anyone by a fair bit.

 

[paracord]

LOL at Crosby being top 5. He's great but at no point in his career has he ever demonstrated that belongs in the top 10 players ever, let alone top 5. McDavid is light years ahead of pre-injury Crosby at his peak, let alone the Sid who has had two 100 pt seasons in 10 years.

If your only argument for a player is "but era," then just make the GOAT list an era based thing and don't even compare past players to current. Otherwise, you need to take into account the fact that modern day players are beneficiaries of yesterday's innovations. It's like saying Einstein wouldn't even be a top 10 physicist today because "bro the guys today are light years ahead." There has to be consideration for how great a player was relative to both their competition at the time, and to the innovations that pre-existed them in the game.

Gretzky is nowhere near the physical talent of McDavid. But Gretzky also fundamentally BROKE the game, and as a result produced numbers that are mind boggling. That factors into the argument.

Similarly, it's even more ridiculous to act like Sid and McD are near each other because "Crosby played in the lower scoring era...of 10 years ago." THEY ARE PEERS. They played in the same era. Crosby came in at a time when players just weren't as good as they are now. The generation of MacKinnon, McDavid, Kucherov, etc. are fundamentally better hockey players than the mid-00s draft class. Nothing about the way the game is played has changed, no major rule changes, goaltending is different but similar...the difference is that a few draft classes happened that involved ungodly talent. That's all. No different from Gretz and Mario being worlds better than dudes who were drafted from 70-78.

So I don't wanna hear about Sid and Ovie being somewhere near McDavid in greatness. Those guys are more comparable to Sakic, Forsberg, and Lindros. Which is amazing. Top 15 players all time type talent. I'm still taking Jagr, Messier, and Yzerman as rounding out the middle to bottom of the top 10.

Wayne, Mario, McDavid, and Orr are in a class of their own. If we're including goalies, Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek are the Wayne (Roy broke the game) and Mario (Hasek the ultimate talent) of goaltending. No one before or since is comparable.

As for winning the Cup, McDavid isn't 35 years old. He has time. Criticizing him for no Cups when he has played on trash teams up until now isn't fair. Past Oiler teams had ZERO depth. He didn't walk onto a squad with Malkin, Staal, Letang and Fleury on it. It was him and Drai and the bargain bin for a long time. That's finally changing.

Crosby not even in the top 10? Wow. Take Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe, and Orr as 1-4 in whatever order you want. Who are the other 6 players who bump Crosby out of the top 10?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Very fair assessment
I think the Crosby losing to Benn is cherry picking. If McDavid has an off year next year and Elias Pederson wins the Ross I don’t know how much would change for me

Good chance McDavid would have lost the Art Ross to Huberdeau if he missed 5 games too like Crosby did that year

 

[paracord]

I will say I liked your post, but the whole premise that you have come up with seems absurd when some people don't even have Howe 4th. And also I love Lemieux but how does him scoring a thousand less points and 250 less goals give him more offensive prowess than Gretzky? Something we see in them I guess, but I guess you could argue anything at that point when you just throw the numbers out the window

The same way Barry Sanders or Jim Brown have way less yards than Emmitt Smith but aren't automatically discounted as being less great. Macro, career-long stats have a component of a player's durability, as well as his being on a good team for a long time.

No one is questioning that Lemieux was anywhere near as durable as Gretzky. But look at his per-game totals and you'll see that Lemieux is the only player that is in Gretzky's realm. There's a huge gap below those two.

Gretzky's career will almost certainly never be eclipsed in terms of pure production, but peak vs. peak is another story.

Good chance McDavid would have lost the Art Ross to Huberdeau if he missed 5 games too like Crosby did that year

No doubt Crosby missed out on two Ross's and maybe Harts during his injuries, or at least was the odds-on favorite for sure.. Luck plays a part in all of these things to some degree. That's why you can't just look at only stats or hardware. There's a human element that needs to play in too.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

The same way Barry Sanders or Jim Brown have way less yards than Emmitt Smith but aren't automatically discounted as being less great. Macro, career-long stats have a component of a player's durability, as well as his being on a good team for a long time.

No one is questioning that Lemieux was anywhere near as durable as Gretzky. But look at his per-game totals and you'll see that Lemieux is the only player that is in Gretzky's realm. There's a huge gap below those two.

Gretzky's career will almost certainly never be eclipsed in terms of pure production, but peak vs. peak is another story.


No doubt Crosby missed out on two Ross's and maybe Harts during his injuries, or at least was the odds-on favorite for sure.. Luck plays a part in all of these things to some degree. That's why you can't just look at only stats or hardware. There's a human element that needs to play in too.

Ive always liked that in 07-08 he showed of avenged his injury sprain. Was tied for the lead after 45 games. Comes back and leads the playoffs in scoring. All in all crosby had 99 points in 73 games 1.35 ppg. Ovechkin had 1.37. It would have been extremely close