Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Game 5 - The one where the Pens dominate

[zhenyas most fly rep]

My .02 on Letang,
Obviously he is held to ridiculously high standards. His offensive production, what he brings to the team in transition from defense to offense is simply incredible and in fact, should more than make up for his defensive mistakes.
Of all the offensive dmen, he's probably one of the best defensively, not to mention the fact that he is arguably one of the top offensive dman in the game actually. (at least top 5 and best PMD IMO)

However, the disturbing thing with him, is that we're not talking originaly about a purely offensive kind of dman, a guy who has always been prone to defensive lapses.
Before he began producing that much offensively, 2-3 years ago, he was way above average defensively, really reliable, much more than nowadays. (Still producing offensively at a pretty decent clip mind you.)
It seems to me that his commitment to defense, his attention to detail has dropped considerably this past 2-3 years (kinda like Staal).

From watching him these days, he reminds me more of the Letang I first saw when he was playing for the Foreurs in the Q, trying to make things happen offensively everywhere on the ice at any time, than the NHL player we watched in his first seasons as a pro taking care of his own zone first and foremost.

He needs the right guidance to find the middle ground.

That said, these playoffs, for best or worst he has really been entertaining to watch. and/or

 

[Ogrezilla]

letang is head and shoulders better defensively than he was 2 or 3 years ago.

 

[spcastlemagic]

Letang can be as emotional, hotheaded and sloppy as he wants to be as long as he's putting up Bobby Orr numbers.

 

[stardog]

I'm going to over simplify it because this team needs strong defense. We have so much offensive firepower that I think a solid defensive game might actually have more value than a tremendous offensive one.

The mental errors have turned into goals against w/ Letang. I can understand weaker defense, but he actually has the ability to shut down opposing top players. He just can't do it for some reason. He makes embarrassingly bad decisions from time to time.

And let's not even look at results. Let's talk about decision making that should never happen. Drop pass between your legs when you are the last person in the umbrella. That is horrific.

He deserves some ****. He also deserves a lot of credit for his amazing play. But I'd take a very consistent effort going forward.

I hear ya, but disagree about his defense. Decision making at times is his main issue and even that we can see has gotten exponentially better with age and tenure.
And name me a defenseman who doesn't make a mistake on a nightly basis on this roster. Letangs are magnified more so than others.

 

[Ogrezilla]

cole i sort of disagree with us needing defensive guys more than offensive guys because we have so many offensive weapons. i think we absolutely need the great puck movers to take full advantage of our offensive weapons. there's nothing more frustrating than seeing sid or geno waste a shift in the d-zone because we can't get the puck out.

 

[Cardboard Orpik]

Letang will take risks, sometimes bad ones, and get burned quite visibly. Overall his defensive game is pretty sound but solid defensive play isn't nearly as memorable as the odd breakaway Letang might give up. He'll get emotional and do dumb things, but that's going to happen with just about everyone. The occasional defensive brainfart is a price I'm willing to pay for his offensive play. He's also an integral part of getting my girlfriend to watch games.

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

letang is head and shoulders better defensively than he was 2 or 3 years ago.

Ok agree to disagree then, but head and shoulders ?
For example, you think he was much more careless with the puck, taking more ill advise decisions, way more often out of position in the defensive zone 2 or 3 years ago ?

 

[IcedCapp]

Ok agree to disagree then, but head and shoulders ?
For example, you think he was much more careless with the puck, taking more ill advise decisions, way more often out of position in the defensive zone 2 or 3 years ago ?

I think you're really oversimplifying what goes into D-zone play?

There's more to it than that. He's better positionally and physically and is better with his stick, etc...

 

[Ogrezilla]

Ok agree to disagree then, but head and shoulders ?
For example, you think he was much more careless with the puck, taking more ill advise decisions, way more often out of position in the defensive zone 2 or 3 years ago ?

i think his basic defensive play is much better. his position, stickwork, body work, physicality and all of that is head and shoulders better. his decision making is a different story.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

I don't notice Letang abandoning his lane to chase the puck carrier during 2 on 2 rushes for the other team (which always led to an inexcusable breakaway). He's improved.

I feel Letang is overrated due to his points. He's still a great player, but his super high point totals are without a doubt in large part thanks to playing with the 2 best players in the world. I'd have trouble paying him elite ($7 million +) d-man type money, just think while he he's obviously very skilled (skating and stick work some of the best in the league) and is still young with plenty of room to improve, there are too many deficiencies in his game to make me comfortable signing him to a huge deal. But hopefully we can retain him for a reasonable price, as he is still a great player.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I don't notice Letang abandoning his lane to chase the puck carrier during 2 on 2 rushes for the other team (which always led to an inexcusable breakaway). He's improved.

I feel Letang is overrated due to his points. He's still a great player, but his super high point totals are without a doubt in large part thanks to playing with the 2 best players in the world. I'd have trouble paying him elite ($7 million +) d-man type money, just think while he he's obviously very skilled (skating and stick work some of the best in the league) and is still young with plenty of room to improve, there are too many deficiencies in his game to make me comfortable signing him to a huge deal. But hopefully we can retain him for a reasonable price, as he is still a great player.

I don't get this mentality. its the same argument with neal. of course they are better because of who they play with. but we've seen year after year that not everybody can play with these guys. why do we care what letang would be worth without sid and geno? we do have them, and with them he is worth a lot of money.

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

I think you're really oversimplifying what goes into D-zone play?

There's more to it than that. He's better positionally and physically and is better with his stick, etc...

Well, his statement was "head and shoulders better", so I chose a few examples, hence the "for example" and, no I don't see how he is better in term of defensive positioning.
Physically, yeah I'll agree on that.

 

[IcedCapp]

Well, his statement was "head and shoulders better", so I chose a few examples, hence the "for example" and, no I don't see how he is better in term of defensive positioning.
Physically, yeah I'll agree on that.

nothing you listed has anything to do with D-zone play, though. It has to do with transition and mental mistakes.

And Letang is infinitely better now than in 2009.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well, his statement was "head and shoulders better", so I chose a few examples, hence the "for example" and, no I don't see how he is better in term of defensive positioning.
Physically, yeah I'll agree on that.

maybe i'm thinking back farther than 2 or 3 years with the head and shoulders comment. i think its the staal comparison that is throwing me, because staal had noticeably declined defensively. letang used to be worse than he is now defensively. he has never been better. nothing about his development reminds me of staal.

 

[ZapRowsdower13]

Hey guys watched the game at a bar last night with a ton of friends so once it was over started high fiving and drinking and the general hoopla so I didn't get to really watch the handshake. I did look up to see Cooke standing there talking to no one in particular/looking annoyed by something.

I'm not making any uninformed assumptions but did something happen. As we've all stated the Sens are a classy team so I'm sure they got around to him. No one skipped him or anything? Again just asking the question not accusing the Senators of doing so.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Hey guys watched the game at a bar last night with a ton of friends so once it was over started high fiving and drinking and the general hoopla so I didn't get to really watch the handshake. I did look up to see Cooke standing there talking to no one in particular/looking annoyed by something.

I'm not making any uninformed assumptions but did something happen. As we've all stated the Sens are a classy team so I'm sure they got around to him. No one skipped him or anything? Again just asking the question not accusing the Senators of doing so.

not that i've heard of. then again, who the hell would make a big deal about a handshake?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I don't notice Letang abandoning his lane to chase the puck carrier during 2 on 2 rushes for the other team (which always led to an inexcusable breakaway). He's improved.

I feel Letang is overrated due to his points. He's still a great player, but his super high point totals are without a doubt in large part thanks to playing with the 2 best players in the world. I'd have trouble paying him elite ($7 million +) d-man type money, just think while he he's obviously very skilled (skating and stick work some of the best in the league) and is still young with plenty of room to improve, there are too many deficiencies in his game to make me comfortable signing him to a huge deal. But hopefully we can retain him for a reasonable price, as he is still a great player.

There is no defenseman in the league who doesn't make mistakes every game. We should be happy to have a player who can impact the game like he does.

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

nothing you listed has anything to do with D-zone play, though. It has to do with transition and mental mistakes.

And Letang is infinitely better now than in 2009.

I can't see how making mental mistakes and play in the D-Zone are unrelated. Best defensive players are keeping the mental mistakes to the minimum.

FTR, 2 - 3 years ago is 2010 - 2011

 

[PensFanSince1989]

There is no defenseman in the league who doesn't make mistakes every game. We should be happy to have a player who can impact the game like he does.

1. There are defencemen however that make a good deal less mistakes
2. I don't even think I mentioned his mistakes in my post. There's a lot more to his deficiencies than just his mental lapses/mistakes.

And we are lucky to have him now. If we have to pay him the same amount as the elite d-men (Suter, Weber, etc) that's when I start getting concerned.

 

[plaidchuck]

It's funny we're comparing him to the "elite" dmen who are either no longer playing in the playoffs or didn't even make it into the playoffs.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

1. There are defencemen however that make a good deal less mistakes
2. I don't even think I mentioned his mistakes in my post. There's a lot more to his deficiencies than just his mental lapses/mistakes.

And we are lucky to have him now. If we have to pay him the same amount as the elite d-men (Suter, Weber, etc) that's when I start getting concerned.

Uh, you pay him like an elite blueliner because he is one. That simple.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Super Scout!


I wonder what his opinion on Joe Dziedzic was

 

[stardog]

I value defense defenseman more then offense defenseman, and Letang always gets hurt, hes a guy who's gonna be targeted every year and miss games, much rather trade him for assets when his value is sky high, then sign him to a big money contract.

It really doesnt matter what us as individual fans prefer to be honest. And this line of thinking is wreckless. Why not trade Crosby or Geno simply because their value is sky high and the two have had injury issues the past couple of years?

If you want a defensive defenseman then thats cool as well. But you dont trade away a player of his caliber as if the choice is between one type or the other. It is extremely poor asset management.

PMD are infinitely more valuable than any other type of defenseman

Agreed. Especially for this team and especially one who is probably the best in the league at transition from defense to offense (or close to it).

I agree, you need PMD, if the pens didn't have PMD coming up within the next couple years i would feel differently about Letang, you could also get a young PMD coming back in the trade, for example something like Letang for Jake Gardiner 1st round pick + something else.

So if your preferrance is defensive defensemen as youve stated, why are you wanting to trade him for a player who is not a defensive defensman? And if you now recognize the importance of a great PMD, why are you wanting to trade away what we already have for a player whom you hope will be as good as Letang (even though the chances of him becoming that good are very slim?)

And if it because you dont want to pay a player what he is worth, then you are eventually going to trade Gardiner (or whomever) once he reaches his potential because you prefer defensive defensmen.

The whole point of drafting and developing talent is the hopes that you do it correctly and the reach their potential. You dont draft them, develop them and then trade them away once they become exactly what you hoped they would become. Especially ones who have yet to or are just entering their prime.

I'm going to over simplify it because this team needs strong defense. We have so much offensive firepower that I think a solid defensive game might actually have more value than a tremendous offensive one.

The mental errors have turned into goals against w/ Letang. I can understand weaker defense, but he actually has the ability to shut down opposing top players. He just can't do it for some reason. He makes embarrassingly bad decisions from time to time.

I disagree with a couple of things here. The first being that he doesnt play a solid defensive game. He does. Especially this year and his improvement in that area has been both steady and exponential. He has not given any indication of an oncoming plateau either.
The second is that you are painting it as an either/or situation. Letang can provide both steady defense as well as tremendous offense. It isnt like this team has to have one or the other. But, if as you say is true, would Rob Scuderi and his tremendous defensive game be more valuable to this team at this moment than what Letang brings?
Third, mental errors turn into goals against for every player. Noone is exempt and this is not exclusive to Letang. This is the main area of criticism I have for people who relentlessly bash Letang (Im not saying this is you btw). They act as if the goals against when Letang causes it are either exclusively his fault or they are more egregious than those when another player is involved.
This simply isnt true.
Im like Jiggyfly in that I hold Letang to a higher standard in evaluating his performance (the same high standard I have for Malkin or Crosby). But I see far to many who hold Letang to this standard yet excuse mistakes of others.
Finally, he HAS been shutting down other teams top players. Youre acting as if he has the ability yet the execution or follow through is absent. I take the opposite stance. He has played extremely well in that role this year and used more methods to do so than your stereotypical shutdown defensman does.

And of course we can say "lets not look at results", but why on earth shouldnt we? This is a sport and results are everything. Individual results are what, at the end of the day determine if the team wins or loses.

I like that Letang takes chances. I like that he throws it all out there. I love his compete level. It is the chances that are really unnecessary which Id like to see him eliminate. And to his credit, even those boneheaded decisions are less frequent.

 

[stardog]

My .02 on Letang

However, the disturbing thing with him, is that we're not talking originaly about a purely offensive kind of dman, a guy who has always been prone to defensive lapses.
Before he began producing that much offensively, 2-3 years ago, he was way above average defensively, really reliable, much more than nowadays. (Still producing offensively at a pretty decent clip mind you.)
It seems to me that his commitment to defense, his attention to detail has dropped considerably this past 2-3 years (kinda like Staal).

Man, I don't know what to say. I've read a few of your posts and found them to be really good, insightful and intelligent. You've truly made some threads actually bearable, but brother, this one is just way off base! In no way was he better defensively at any point in his career than he is right now. Especially two to three years ago. Like I said, I respect your opinion, but I simply can't fathom why anyone's opinion would be this.

 

[stardog]

Letang will take risks, sometimes bad ones, and get burned quite visibly. Overall his defensive game is pretty sound but solid defensive play isn't nearly as memorable as the odd breakaway Letang might give up. He'll get emotional and do dumb things, but that's going to happen with just about everyone. The occasional defensive brainfart is a price I'm willing to pay for his offensive play. He's also an integral part of getting my girlfriend to watch games.

Kind of hit the nail square on the head with this one. Love this post.