Cole's Live Game Experience Takeaway

ColePens

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Mar 27, 2008
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I was at the game last night and decided to watch as a scout as opposed to being a fan. I wrote some notes down and figured to share them in a more holistic view of the Penguins that contains some x's/o's as well. I've been to about 5 games this year and watching the game from that perspective allows me to watch away from the puck. This will be a combination of what I see live and how we see things on television.

First.. let me start off by stating the obvious. Here are the biggest issues 1-5 that the team has. Of course there are additional issues, but here are the absolute top 5.

1) Players/Coach Chemistry: Everyone wants to point the finger and blame, but the blame needs to go all around. I've said it for YEARS. You can have the best system the game of hockey has ever seen, but if you cannot get the players to play it - it will fail and look awful. Period. From everything MJ/Tocchet said to what we see the players doing is completely different. It's as if I'm reading a screen play of Jaws but I'm watching Sharknado.

Right now the players and coaches are saying/doing completely opposite things.

2) Identity: Best discussion to have because this team has lacked an identity for 5 years. DB took over and we just became this adult league hockey team that played off skill and we called it "our game" but I really don't think the Pens have a game. They haven't for 6 years now. MJ was trying to give them an identity to play like Babcock and puck possession teams, but we still do not have an identity. The argument is simple - Do you want to be a big team? Do you want to be a fast team? Do you want to be a skilled team? Do you want to be a puck possession team? Which one is it? Pick one and build around it.

3) Accountability/Discipline: I'm not going to dive into this too much. The players are not accountable for anything. From the Kunitz saga, to Sid's poor season, to Sutter not battling at all and never being called out. We laugh when Craig Adams is always given the benefit of the doubt but it isn't even the biggest accountability issue the Pens have. For what the coaches say to what players like Sutter, Sid, and Kunitz do is amazing. The fact no discipline has been dished out, except Kunitz being moved to the 3rd line for a few games, is bad. The best players deserve benched sometimes. I remember Subban getting benched. I remember when Toews had his hissy fit and was called out by his coach. I remember Geno getting a ton of flack under MT.


4) Defensive Responsibility/Urgency: I use the word urgency but not in the meaning of rushing. That leads to mistakes. I think this is a huge issue that the team plays as if nothing matters. Nothing is ever on the line. In 2009 they were so pissed that they lost the Cup, that every game felt as if their lives were on the line. Complacency is a scary thing. This organization is complacent and it shows on the ice. The forwards do not backcheck as if every shift matters. The defense do not finish hits or fill lanes as if the next goal makes all the difference. I know it's a long season but you would at least expect to see it occasionally. We do not. It's a BIG time issue. You can even see it off faceoffs.

5) Roster/Player Management: This one is on the coaches. It's been discussed to all degrees. You guys/gals know this one. It's no secret. Every team has their same issues. We have guys who are ready to make NHL 4th line differences but we are just so sure Adams is the guy. We have guys who don't fit their role or play their offwing and we wonder why they struggle (cough Jarome Iginla). We have a powerplay where we want Letang/Crosby to be shooters but they don't ever want to take a shot when we have guys like Malkin/Perron who ONLY want to shoot play for rebounds/passes.
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X's/O's: One big mess that this team has had for years... :

Defense: Neutral Zone/D-Zone

We all complain about offense but probably one of the biggest flaws I've seen with the team since the DB era took over is actually the neutral zone/defensive zone. We actually cause more issues than we need to have. Let me start off by saying the forwards are just as much to blame as the defense because defensive responsibility is something this team does not take seriously. Ovechkin actually backchecks harder (this season) than 90% of our forwards. That puts the defense in a really tight spot. We have poor gap and our feet are still.

The neutral zone coverage off a set breakout is the weirdest thing I've seen. You have 2 forwards forechecking (1 in first, 2nd on a delay) and you have 3 players back by the red line. Right off the bat we have terrible gap and are flat footed. In addition we have our 2 defensemen wide almost at the faceoff dots and the center or first forward back is hovering the center of the ice. This is why we constantly get burned up the middle when transition breaks down.

In the d-zone it's very similar to DB's zone concept late in the DB era. The only difference is our forwards are more collapsed. It's a reactionary defense which doesn't work in the NHL. They cover their zones and make sure the front of the net is covered, but without moving your feet you aren't going to win battles.

For as much talent as we actually have on our defense, we hinder ourselves by playing this way. A lot of the gap/transition issues could be handled by more pressure up front w/ activated defense but we absolutely have to have backcheckers dedicated to playing defense. Right now we don't have that so we are constantly pushing backwards as opposed to forward.



Passing:

A lot of discussion is about how awful our breakouts are and how out of sync we look. Here's the deal... it's a combination of Pens not playing the way the coach wants them to and the poor decisions the players are making. If the pass has to be a board pass, we will try to force it through skates. If the support has to come over for a chip play, we will try to make a direct pass instead. This is 100% on chemistry and not doing what the coaches want them to do. This takes us back to the #1 issue the team has. If the players cannot play this way, the coaches need to simplify it.

I wanted to bring this up because the live experience is PERFECT to see how the passes are being set up. The forwards have NO clue where to go on the breakout. Sometimes we dump. Sometimes we carry. Sometimes we chip. They have no clue when to do each one. That's why it looks so out of sync. It stems from chemistry and the fact that the players are just not buying into MJ's system at all. What is discussed and the product are 2 different things.

If anyone is going to a game, take your eyes off the puck and watch how the movement of forwards goes up the ice. You never see the same thing. They just have no clue what to do on a consistent basis.
-----------------------------------------------

And now let's take an individual view at the players. Here are four players contributing to this hot mess we have on our hands:

1) Sidney Crosby: Watching him live was deflating. His decision making is worse than it looks on television. He takes big loops away from the puck instead of stopping/starting. He doesn't look engaged at all. On the PK he tried to high stick the puck out of the air instead of just batting it with his hand. His passes are garbage and seriously it's so disappointing to watch him play. In fact, a lot of the bad passes you see on tv are worse live. There isn't a Penguin player anywhere in the area. Sid is just guessing because he doesn't want to take the puck to a corner (or to the net) and go to work. It's very sad.

2) Chris Kunitz: Complete mess. Plays as if he's pissed off that the he even has to dress to collect a paycheck.

3) Sutter: Surprisingly Sutter looks worse live, too. His defensive responsibility is overrated. He goes into the boards weaker than Pesonen, Beau, Miro Satan, and Sykora combined. For a guy who is given credit for his hustle he just doesn't. He plays Craig Adams hockey. He's going to be safe and stand around in the defensive side of the ice because he can't make a mistake if he's already standing there. As soon as he goes into a corner we all know the outcome. The puck is going the other way.

4) Evgeni Malkin: Weirdly the guy is buying into the system more than most, but he also looks like he's trying to push too hard to be the savior. Every shift he's looking to be the hero instead of just playing the right way. That's why Geno's line either looks the best or the worst shift-to-shift. You can feel his energy wanting to take over the game but he's pushing entirely too hard. He's desperately trying to score a goal each shift and that just isn't the way to play the game. You just have to focus on each shift doing what you CAN do. You aren't going to score a goal every shift. It just isn't going to happen. He's really forcing the play . On television I thought he was being lazy like the 3 above him, but that's actually not the case. Very shocking.
 

ColePens

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Obviously a tl;dr post, but it was some notes I took down and figured to share. Hopefully you enjoy.

A lot of discussion is *****ing about Craig Adams or our powerplay, but the underlying issues are bigger than the things we talk about. The only way I really got to take that in is by going to a few games and keeping my eyes off the puck in general but watching how the system evolves and works.

So next time you want to blame one player or one play, take a deep breath and look at the holistic view of what is going on. The underlying issues are actually the bigger problems with the team/organization.
 

ColePens

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When people say 10 cent brain, it's 100% true. I left him off this discussion because I think it's going to deter the thread. You will not find a more athletic beast out there on the ice when you see him live. He's faster and doesn't run out of energy than pretty much everyone on the ice. It's remarkable how much he skates. He's constantly up/down the ice. I would love to see how many calories he burns per game. :laugh: It's not human.

His brain is AWFUL. His decision making away from the play is why he needs a defensive anchor to play with him. He's not a guy who can carry a #6 dman. He tries so hard to be the difference maker and a lot of times he's out of position. Maybe it's because he wants to be the hero that he gets himself in trouble making dumb plays. It's something that will never change. He plays the game athletically and not intelligently. That's for damn sure.

Let me also talk about Fleury. He's a different goalie than the many games I've gone to in the past. He is the calming influence to the team. Can anyone believe I just wrote that? His rebounds aren't as huge and he lets the puck get eaten up in his pads. I don't know what happened, but he's a different goalie. Really cannot believe the transition. It's remarkable. Sustainable? I don't know. It looks like it could be as long as he believes in his own game. It's a great way to play goalie, I"ll tell you that much. He's making the right saves instead of focusing on the big save.
 

Black Label

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Aug 6, 2009
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3) Sutter: Surprisingly Sutter looks worse live, too. His defensive responsibility is overrated. He goes into the boards weaker than Pesonen, Beau, Miro Satan, and Sykora combined. For a guy who is given credit for his hustle he just doesn't. He plays Craig Adams hockey. He's going to be safe and stand around in the defensive side of the ice because he can't make a mistake if he's already standing there. As soon as he goes into a corner we all know the outcome. The puck is going the other way.

I'm going to sound like a homer, but I don't really care because I have a huge mancrush on the guy...

I think we would be a better team if we had Sundqvist at 3C right now instead of Sutter. He is everything that we want Sutter to be. He is bigger than Sutter, he is meaner than Sutter, he wins board battles, he goes to the net, he finishes his checks, he backchecks, he does everything a 3C should. I can't wait for him to have another awesome preseason next year and then get sent down to WBS so that worse players can play over him.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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Great post Cole. A lot of this analysis is spot on with what I'm seeing. I've only been to one game this season, so I don;t have the same visibility into the players without the puck as you. Question for you. In your opinion, why has this team drifted away from playing so well early in the season?

I thought early on they looked pretty organized on breakouts and were playing like a pretty cohesive unit. It's tough to know what changed. I definitely agree that what the coaches want them to do and what they are doing are pretty far off at times. It's just tough to understand the driver. Injuries didn't help. Maybe MJ installed different looks later on. Other teams adjusted. Just all around they look disorganized and sloppy.
 

AquaticBirdman

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Sep 25, 2007
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Cole what was your impression of Pouliot from seeing him live? From what I see on TV he is obviously a kid that has all the tools to be an excellent puck moving d-man in this league. He has great skating ability and he's definitely confident in what he can do with the puck. However he looks like your typical rook d-man that still has a lot of MENTAL development ahead of him in terms of his decision making...
 

pensfan71

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Jun 9, 2010
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This post was great. One sec lemme print this **** out and mail it in to Mario
 

mikethelegacy

formerly mikelegacy
May 9, 2013
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1) Sidney Crosby: Watching him live was deflating. His decision making is worse than it looks on television. He takes big loops away from the puck instead of stopping/starting. He doesn't look engaged at all. On the PK he tried to high stick the puck out of the air instead of just batting it with his hand. His passes are garbage and seriously it's so disappointing to watch him play. In fact, a lot of the bad passes you see on tv are worse live. There isn't a Penguin player anywhere in the area. Sid is just guessing because he doesn't want to take the puck to a corner (or to the net) and go to work. It's very sad.

Are you talking about on breakouts? I've been to 10 games or so this year, and 100 or so in the past 5 years and from what I've seen Sid has always looped back for puck support on breakouts, especially this year, which I attribute to Johnston's "attempt" at implementing a puck support system.

I agree he is disengaged for sure. I don't question his work ethic, though. He hustles, wins battles, and does a lot of the intangibles that the best player in the world is supposed to do. The drive is obviously there. He doesn't get pissed and scream **** at the top of his lungs after getting robbed last night AND fight Dubinsky without at least caring/knowing about how bad he has been recently. I think his frustration is at the highest it's ever been, but he's not going to show that to the media.

Literally, my #1 issue with his game is his passing/decision making. It's awful right now. I can look over his lack of scoring and contribute it to unlucky bounces, etc, but for a guy who used to do everything right ALL the time, the amount that he makes poor decisions is alarming.

4) Evgeni Malkin: Weirdly the guy is buying into the system more than most, but he also looks like he's trying to push too hard to be the savior. Every shift he's looking to be the hero instead of just playing the right way. That's why Geno's line either looks the best or the worst shift-to-shift. You can feel his energy wanting to take over the game but he's pushing entirely too hard. He's desperately trying to score a goal each shift and that just isn't the way to play the game. You just have to focus on each shift doing what you CAN do. You aren't going to score a goal every shift. It just isn't going to happen. He's really forcing the play . On television I thought he was being lazy like the 3 above him, but that's actually not the case. Very shocking.

That's always been Geno's M.O. I've been saying it for years. I love the dude, and he is AMAZING when at the top of his game, but when he get the least bit frustrated, he tries to force everything. He needs to get out of his own head sometime and just use his natural ability.
 
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mikethelegacy

formerly mikelegacy
May 9, 2013
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Cole what was your impression of Pouliot from seeing him live? From what I see on TV he is obviously a kid that has all the tools to be an excellent puck moving d-man in this league. He has great skating ability and he's definitely confident in what he can do with the puck. However he looks like your typical rook d-man that still has a lot of MENTAL development ahead of him in terms of his decision making...

I was there last night, as well. I thought he has a bad game. There are certain nights he looks very strong, and others that he looks incredibly shaky. After last night, I'm not sure he is going to be ready for the playoffs. A defensive lapse like on the Hartnell goal is a huge mistake. I know it was a turnover, but you can't just leave a guy open in front of your net when the puck hasn't even left your own zone yet.

His decision making and play making abilities are evident. He is going to be like Despres I believe though and take a while to develop defensively. He is obviously a force on the PP, but as much as this board doesn't want to believe it, PKing wins you Stanley Cups, PPs don't (although a good power play never hurts). Only 1 stanley cup team in the past 10 years (post lockout era) has had a regular season power play ranking higher than 14th according to Bob Grove. I thought that was an amazing stat.

Overall, he's going to be a great player, but he really needs to work on his defensive game.
 
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SHOOTANDSCORE

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Sep 25, 2005
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Nice job. I can't disagree with anything up there.


Obviously a tl;dr post, but it was some notes I took down and figured to share. Hopefully you enjoy.

A lot of discussion is *****ing about Craig Adams or our powerplay, but the underlying issues are bigger than the things we talk about. The only way I really got to take that in is by going to a few games and keeping my eyes off the puck in general but watching how the system evolves and works.

So next time you want to blame one player or one play, take a deep breath and look at the holistic view of what is going on. The underlying issues are actually the bigger problems with the team/organization.
Yup. Merely symptoms of the underlying illness.

And that is coming from someone who loves to bag on good old Craig.
 

penguins2946*

Guest
In your opinion, why has this team drifted away from playing so well early in the season?sloppy.

I'll answer this with my thought. At the beginning of the season, the Pens were a completely new team. There was a ton of roster turnover and there was an entirely new system. My guess is that teams didn't know how to approach the Pens gameplay, and that's why the Pens looked so good at the start of the season. Not because they were playing that good, it's just that no team knew how to counter what they were doing because no one knew what they were doing before the game. Now, with a lot more video of games, teams can adjust accordingly and shut down the Pens. The Pens system doesn't seem to be well constructed, so it doesn't seem difficult to shut them down.
 

ColePens

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Great post Cole. A lot of this analysis is spot on with what I'm seeing. I've only been to one game this season, so I don;t have the same visibility into the players without the puck as you. Question for you. In your opinion, why has this team drifted away from playing so well early in the season?

I thought early on they looked pretty organized on breakouts and were playing like a pretty cohesive unit. It's tough to know what changed. I definitely agree that what the coaches want them to do and what they are doing are pretty far off at times. It's just tough to understand the driver. Injuries didn't help. Maybe MJ installed different looks later on. Other teams adjusted. Just all around they look disorganized and sloppy.

The biggest thing is the connection between coach, accountability, discipline, and the players. The beginning of the season was met with strong belief. Every adjustment worked (PP, PK, lines, etc). Then we hit our slump that we ALL knew was going to happen and look what occurred. Instead of them building on it, they are letting it become this huge issue.

It's becoming a bigger issue because the team is letting it. That stems from a lot of leadership. Now the disconnect between coaching and the players is even bigger. The powerplay is confidence and not listening.

Sadly the truth is that the doom and gloom is growing because the Pens are letting it grow. There is no belief and you can feel it when you are there. It's a bad place to be. Even the fans feel it. Now everything is just crashing down instead of being built back up.

That makes the fix a little bit harder.

Cole what was your impression of Pouliot from seeing him live? From what I see on TV he is obviously a kid that has all the tools to be an excellent puck moving d-man in this league. He has great skating ability and he's definitely confident in what he can do with the puck. However he looks like your typical rook d-man that still has a lot of MENTAL development ahead of him in terms of his decision making...

I read through a lot of the post-game and it was a debate where both parties were right. Was Pouliot to blame for the goals? It wasn't all his fault but he definitely didn't help the fact either. I look at that defensive responsibility factor again. That was the slowest forming 2 on 1 to lose the game. If everyone was hauling ass and supporting, it never happens. Would never happen.

His skating ability is ridiculous. I swear that is something you cannot teach. His pivots and ability to turn on a dime in the d-zone is amazing. Superb edges. He just needs comfort in the NHL game. He's going to be a great player as long as he's passionate and adds size/strength. His skating and surprisingly his wrist/snap shot release speed are his biggest weapons that are NHL ready right now.

The physicality in the playoffs against this kid will show us that he's not 100% ready. He does decent under pressure, but when it's a 1 on 1 battle in the d-zone, he's getting worked over a little. That's to be 100% expected though. He's definitely better live than he is on tv.
 

EVGENIMERLIN

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Thanks for the write up Cole. So it seems as though the players not playing MJ's system don't allow MJ to even begin to make adjustments. One thing I wonder though is why not shake up the lines to see if there's better chemistry between players on the ice?
 

ColePens

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Thanks for the write up Cole. So it seems as though the players not playing MJ's system don't allow MJ to even begin to make adjustments. One thing I wonder though is why not shake up the lines to see if there's better chemistry between players on the ice?

This is why it gets worse instead of better. If there is such a disconnect - no line changes or adjustments are going to work. Not at all.

It comes down to the coaches coaching in a way the players buy in or we get serious and start heavy disciplining. But I know we all want to see players benched and held accountable, but that can turn into a MT situation all over again.

It's tricky. I would say it's an absolute coin flip to see if this team figures it out this year. They could be a dangerous formidable group if they figure that locker room out OR they will be a laughable 1st round opponent that teams will abuse by continuing to do what they do to us.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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What's their body language like on the bench? That's something you can see more clearly live than on television, because often times the camera doesn't pan to the bench.

Are they animated? Do they look like they're "pumped" for their next shift? Or is there a noticeable sagging of shoulders, an almost defeated look about them even when they're on the bench?
 

pensfan71

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What's their body language like on the bench? That's something you can see more clearly live than on television, because often times the camera doesn't pan to the bench.

Are they animated? Do they look like they're "pumped" for their next shift? Or is there a noticeable sagging of shoulders, an almost defeated look about them even when they're on the bench?

So basically do they look like they did before MT and DB got fired?
 

Ugene Magic

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Thanks for all the time you took, Cole.

I agree with a good amount of the stuff, but nothing more than this team needs to be more in-tune with themselves.

They need time. They need to make a choice and they all have to buy in.
 

Freeptop

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Jun 17, 2009
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What's their body language like on the bench? That's something you can see more clearly live than on television, because often times the camera doesn't pan to the bench.

Are they animated? Do they look like they're "pumped" for their next shift? Or is there a noticeable sagging of shoulders, an almost defeated look about them even when they're on the bench?

I was at the game last night, and as soon as they came out of the locker room before the national anthem, I was already worried, because their body language looked bad. Whatever is going on is in their heads before the first puck drops.

I'm starting to think the whole team should just start booking appointments with Fleury's sports psychologist, because he's the only one who has been consistently looking engaged.
 

ColePens

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What's their body language like on the bench? That's something you can see more clearly live than on television, because often times the camera doesn't pan to the bench.

Are they animated? Do they look like they're "pumped" for their next shift? Or is there a noticeable sagging of shoulders, an almost defeated look about them even when they're on the bench?

102 sits just behind the benches. I was actually looking at this. NHL is tough during regular season because it is just such a long season. It's hard to tell exactly. The one guy I see get up, stand up, and looks so focused is Downie. The guy is on his feet for every scoring chance.

The guy is awesome. I'd love to see what he is like in that locker room. I bet a key component.
 

NewAgeOutlaw

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Good post and I agree with just about everything. Wish I could catch a game live because I too get a better sense of how the team is playing watching in the arena.
 

UnrealMachine

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Jul 9, 2012
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Defense: Neutral Zone/D-Zone

The neutral zone coverage off a set breakout is the weirdest thing I've seen. You have 2 forwards forechecking (1 in first, 2nd on a delay) and you have 3 players back by the red line. Right off the bat we have terrible gap and are flat footed. In addition we have our 2 defensemen wide almost at the faceoff dots and the center or first forward back is hovering the center of the ice. This is why we constantly get burned up the middle when transition breaks down.

Awesome thread all around, Cole. I just wanted to focus on the above quote since that has been jumping out at me lately as well. Essentially, the opponent has a 3 on 3 through the neutral zone, but because we are setup in more of a 1-2, the puck carrier has so much space that he basically has a one on one the first defender. You can almost read the mind of the puck carrier saying to himself, "wait a minute, there's so much room here that I can just skate around this guy". In the end it ends up a partial 3 on 2 and at a minimum they gain easy access on the zone entry. At worse, it ends up a 3 on 2 or 2 on 1 scoring chance. Does anyone remember the Pens giving up as many odd man breaks at the frequency they have over the last month?

Now flip the roles and imagine the Pens as the puck carrier here. Instead of trying to skate around the 1st defender, they will force a pass directly to where the offensive blue line meets the boards. Bonus points if your winger arrives in that space at the same time as the defender. Chip...Chase....Possession Lost.
 

ColePens

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Awesome thread all around, Cole. I just wanted to focus on the above quote since that has been jumping out at me lately as well. Essentially, the opponent has a 3 on 3 through the neutral zone, but because we are setup in more of a 1-2, the puck carrier has so much space that he basically has a one on one the first defender. You can almost read the mind of the puck carrier saying to himself, "wait a minute, there's so much room here that I can just skate around this guy". In the end it ends up a partial 3 on 2 and at a minimum they gain easy access on the zone entry. At worse, it ends up a 3 on 2 or 2 on 1 scoring chance. Does anyone remember the Pens giving up as many odd man breaks at the frequency they have over the last month?

Now flip the roles and imagine the Pens as the puck carrier here. Instead of trying to skate around the 1st defender, they will force a pass directly to where the offensive blue line meets the boards. Bonus points if your winger arrives in that space at the same time as the defender. Chip...Chase....Possession Lost.

I mean you are pretty spot on about how these 3 on 2s keep developing. On set breakouts our first 2 guys are pointless if they aren't taking the body or picking off a near impossible pass. I'd rather them just go full trap. The first forechcker is as pointless as DB's first. And I know what experienced coaches will say "But the first guy forces the pass to teh side we want the puck on!" No... that's not the case such as a LWL.

The second part just described DB's chip/chase system. We at least have more speed than that. Sadly.
 

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