Coffey vs. Leetch

[BraveCanadian]

Curious how people view these two in relation to one another.

Coffey

Almost unquestionably the best offensive defenseman of the past 30 years. 5 time 100 point scorer. However, people berate him for defensive shortcomings.

Others will point to the amazing breakup of the play in the Canada Cup or his more conservative play with the Red Wings as evidence that he could play competent to above average defense when needed or expected.

A Stanley Cup finalist with 4 different teams, Coffey won the Stanley Cup 3 times with the Oilers and once with Pens while coming up short with the Wings and Flyers.

He is a 3 time Norris winner and a Canada Cup all star internationally.




Leetch

Another of the best offensive defensemen from the recent era. Like Coffey, he was a great skater, great passer and wonderful powerplay quarterback. Also a 100 point scorer. He had a monster year in the 94 playoffs to help the Rangers win the Stanley Cup and won the Conn Smythe trophy. Won a Calder trophy and 2 Norris trophies. Internationally he won a silver medal for the USA in the Olympics and won the 96 World Cup.

Also similarly to Coffey, people often point to the hit he made on a somewhat surprised Pavel Bure in the 94 finals as an instance that proves he was more solid defensively than many give him credit for..

Who would you pick from these two similar players for your team?

Click to read more...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Curious how people view these two in relation to one another.

Coffey

Almost unquestionably the best offensive defenseman of the past 30 years. 5 time 100 point scorer. However, people berate him for defensive shortcomings.

Others will point to the amazing breakup of the play in the Canada Cup or his more conservative play with the Red Wings as evidence that he could play competent to above average defense when needed or expected.

A Stanley Cup finalist with 4 different teams, Coffey won the Stanley Cup 3 times with the Oilers and once with Pens while coming up short with the Wings and Flyers.

He is a 3 time Norris winner and a Canada Cup all star internationally.




Leetch

Another of the best offensive defensemen from the recent era. Like Coffey, he was a great skater, great passer and wonderful powerplay quarterback. Also a 100 point scorer. He had a monster year in the 94 playoffs to help the Rangers win the Stanley Cup and won the Conn Smythe trophy. Won a Calder trophy and 2 Norris trophies. Internationally he won a silver medal for the USA in the Olympics and won the 96 World Cup.

Also similarly to Coffey, people often point to the hit he made on a somewhat surprised Pavel Bure in the 94 finals as an instance that proves he was more solid defensively than many give him credit for..
Who would you pick from these two similar players for your team?

Its foolish to pick one play and surmise it proves anything.

I would rank Coffey higher than Leetch, but I may not want him on my team more. I think Leetch was better defensively and a better teammate. It would depend what kind of team I already had.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Its foolish to pick one play and surmise it proves anything.

I would rank Coffey higher than Leetch, but I may not want him on my team more. I think Leetch was better defensively and a better teammate. It would depend what kind of team I already had.

I agree with this. I think Coffey was better than Leetch. But I think Leetch could play on almost any type of team, while Coffey almost needed a run-and-gun team.

Of course, you could also say that Coffey was so good offensively that him forcing your team into a run-and-gun style is a good thing.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Its foolish to pick one play and surmise it proves anything.

I would rank Coffey higher than Leetch, but I may not want him on my team more. I think Leetch was better defensively and a better teammate. It would depend what kind of team I already had.

I agree with this as well.

Coffey ranks higher all time, but Leetch was more versatile. Really depends on the type of team

 

[habsjunkie2*]

For me it's Coffey rather easily. Leetch was a great player in his own right, but Paul Coffey is just a notch behind the elites. I find his short comings defensively largley overstated. Obviously when mentioning him next to Orr ect his defence doesn't match up at all, but he wasn't Mike Green bad like many make him out to be.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I agree with this. I think Coffey was better than Leetch. But I think Leetch could play on almost any type of team, while Coffey almost needed a run-and-gun team.

Of course, you could also say that Coffey was so good offensively that him forcing your team into a run-and-gun style is a good thing.

About sums it up for me as well but I don't think you necessarily need to run and gun but you would need to pair him with a conservative partner and make all the forwards extra aware of their responsibilities when he takes off.

Like was mentioned already, Leetch on the other hand doesn't the extra "assistance".

For me it's Coffey rather easily. Leetch was a great player in his own right, but Paul Coffey is just a notch behind the elites. I find his short comings defensively largley overstated. Obviously when mentioning him next to Orr ect his defence doesn't match up at all, but he wasn't Mike Green bad like many make him out to be.

Agreed. It's not that Coffey couldn't play an acceptable level of defense, he just usually didn't.
Where Green can't and doesn't do either heh.

 

[BraveCanadian]

About sums it up for me as well but I don't think you necessarily need to run and gun but you would need to pair him with a conservative partner and make all the forwards extra aware of their responsibilities when he takes off.

Like was mentioned already, Leetch on the other hand doesn't the extra "assistance".

Having someone drop back to compensate for a rushing/pinching defenseman is hockey 101 not something you have do specially for Coffey.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Having someone drop back to compensate for a rushing/pinching defenseman is hockey 101 not something you have do specially for Coffey.

Not in a run and gun, the whole point is to have 4 attackers going in.
At least that's how it was for the Oilers run and gun.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Not in a run and gun, the whole point is to have 4 attackers going in.
At least that's how it was for the Oilers run and gun.

The whole point is to transition quickly and to create odd man rushes.. you don't necessarily have to have 4 players going in deep as long as you out man the defenders and catch the other team going the wrong way.

You're right though, the Oilers seemed to just run back and forth trading chances a lot though.

But hey, they could afford to.

 

[Rhiessan71]

The whole point is to transition quickly and to create odd man rushes.. you don't necessarily have to have 4 players going in deep as long as you out man the defenders and catch the other team going the wrong way.

You're right though, the Oilers seemed to just run back and forth trading chances a lot though.

But hey, they could afford to.

Exactly and if the dman jumping in makes it 4-3 he goes everytime.

 

[BostonAJ]

Its foolish to pick one play and surmise it proves anything.

I would rank Coffey higher than Leetch, but I may not want him on my team more. I think Leetch was better defensively and a better teammate. It would depend what kind of team I already had.

Seems to be a popular consensus, and that confuses me. It's a contradiction. Presumably, one would always want the better positional player on their team. For those with the "it depends" response as to who they'd prefer, they may wish to reevaluate who the better all time player was in their estimation, either Coffey lower or Leetch higher.

For me, I'll take Coffey from his Oiler days over anything Leetch did.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Seems to be a popular consensus, and that confuses me. It's a contradiction. Presumably, one would always want the better positional player on their team. For those with the "it depends" response as to who they'd prefer, they may wish to reevaluate who the better all time player was in their estimation, either Coffey lower or Leetch higher.

For me, I'll take Coffey from his Oiler days over anything Leetch did.

Not a contradiction really, just a matter of team need and fit.
Like if you're the Caps you take Coffey in a heartbeat, as opposed to the Devils who would take Leetch instead.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Seems to be a popular consensus, and that confuses me. It's a contradiction. Presumably, one would always want the better positional player on their team. For those with the "it depends" response as to who they'd prefer, they may wish to reevaluate who the better all time player was in their estimation, either Coffey lower or Leetch higher.

For me, I'll take Coffey from his Oiler days over anything Leetch did.

It definitely is a contradiction to say one player is better than another but he's not necessarily the one you want on your team, taking everything into account.

It does seem strange that so many people are crediting Leetch as being more versatile or better defensively while he is still a 100 point defenseman.. yet he is getting beaten pretty badly so far in the poll.

I'm not taking part in my own poll because I think that isn't proper but I expected it to be closer to be honest.

 

[Rhiessan71]

It definitely is a contradiction to say one player is better than another but he's not necessarily the one you want on your team, taking everything into account.

It does seem strange that so many people are crediting Leetch as being more versatile or better defensively while he is still a 100 point defenseman.. yet he is getting beaten pretty badly so far in the poll.

I'm not taking part in my own poll because I think that isn't proper but I expected it to be closer to be honest.

It's Coffey, that's why, he's kind of an enigma when it comes to ranking him.
He kinda stands by himself in no mans land. He's just as far behind Bourque and Lidstrom as he is out in front of the Leetch's and Macinnis'.
His own little spot where he doesn't reach anyone and no one reaches him

 

[begbeee]

It's Coffey, that's why, he's kind of an enigma when it comes to ranking him.
He kinda stands by himself in no mans land. He's just as far behind Bourque and Lidstrom as he is out in front of the Leetch's and Macinnis'.
His own little spot where he doesn't reach anyone and no one reaches him

As far this sounds weird, as far I have to agree with this

 

[canucks4ever]

Coffey for sure, I personally wouldn't vote for Leetch in the top 100. He has about 5 good seasons and that 1 great playoff run, but he really lacks depth to his resume and that's why guys like stevens and macinnis are greater than him.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Seems to be a popular consensus, and that confuses me. It's a contradiction. Presumably, one would always want the better positional player on their team. For those with the "it depends" response as to who they'd prefer, they may wish to reevaluate who the better all time player was in their estimation, either Coffey lower or Leetch higher.

For me, I'll take Coffey from his Oiler days over anything Leetch did.

Perhaps its a contridiction in a fantasy league. But a player like Coffey doesn't necessarily translate into more wins for his team automatically. His style was unique and his defensive shortcomings could be disastrous in a situation where better D is needed. I'm not sure his ego wouldn't be a factor in some situations also. 2nd best offensive Dman ever and he played on 9 different teams. That's unusual.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Perhaps its a contridiction in a fantasy league. But a player like Coffey doesn't necessarily translate into more wins for his team automatically. His style was unique and his defensive shortcomings could be disastrous in a situation where better D is needed. I'm not sure his ego wouldn't be a factor in some situations also. 2nd best offensive Dman ever and he played on 9 different teams. That's unusual.

He did bounce around an awful lot especially later in his career as he was fading.

 

[TheBigBadCat]

Coffey hands down . Paul Coffey set the standard in offensive dman . Nothing like watching Paul Coffey go end to end .
Leetch a very good player but not even close .

 

[Rhiessan71]

Coffey hands down . Paul Coffey set the standard in offensive dman . Nothing like watching Paul Coffey go end to end .

Followed the standard, some guy named Orr set it

 

[Big Phil]

Coffey for sure. I don't understand what people are saying about Coffey. When the chips were down he was as good as anyone else. Example:

1984 Canada Cup Canada vs. Russia semifinal overtime. Coffey intercepts the pass on a threatening two on one. He was the only defenseman back after an untimely pinch from Doug Wilson. In one fluid motion he intercepts the pass gets up off his knees and immediately darts end to end the other way. The puck goes into the corner and eventually gets back to Coffey who rifles a wrist shot that Bossy deflects in for the winner.

Yeah I know we've heard about this before. But I will say this again. I figure there is only one other person in NHL history who can make that play, and that's Orr. No one else would have the instincts and the speed to break up a pass and immediately go against the grain the other way. Who else could do that play? No one I know of.

That's just an example but Coffey beats Leetch in every avenue I can think of. All-star noms, Norris Trophies, Cups, postseason play, clutch play, passing, scoring, rushing, skating. Coffey also was rarely out of position. Neither was overly physical and while Leetch wasn't bad defensively I don't see him any better than a prime Coffey. The 100 point seasons are another edge to Coffey.

 

[ozzie]

Coffey's offensively abilities made up for his poor defensive performance. He was used to his strengths, but he could play average defense when needed. First 15 years of his career he was used as an offensive weapon by the Oilers, Penguins, Kings and Wings.

One thing I'll never forget that I believe Coffey said in his defense was something like: When you carry the puck as much as I do and have possesion of the puck so much, you also turn it over more then others.

He did not deserve to end his career the way he did.

I have to wonder if the DRW won the Cup in 95, if people would give him more credit. He was an easy scapegoat but not the one to blame.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Coffey for sure. I don't understand what people are saying about Coffey. When the chips were down he was as good as anyone else. Example:

1984 Canada Cup Canada vs. Russia semifinal overtime. Coffey intercepts the pass on a threatening two on one. He was the only defenseman back after an untimely pinch from Doug Wilson. In one fluid motion he intercepts the pass gets up off his knees and immediately darts end to end the other way. The puck goes into the corner and eventually gets back to Coffey who rifles a wrist shot that Bossy deflects in for the winner.

Yeah I know we've heard about this before. But I will say this again. I figure there is only one other person in NHL history who can make that play, and that's Orr. No one else would have the instincts and the speed to break up a pass and immediately go against the grain the other way. Who else could do that play? No one I know of.

That's just an example but Coffey beats Leetch in every avenue I can think of. All-star noms, Norris Trophies, Cups, postseason play, clutch play, passing, scoring, rushing, skating. Coffey also was rarely out of position. Neither was overly physical and while Leetch wasn't bad defensively I don't see him any better than a prime Coffey. The 100 point seasons are another edge to Coffey.

Obviously, Coffey wins this poll.
But....

Why do people always bring up the one play where Coffey actually did the right thing defensively? Everyone has a good day. I can think of times when the chips were down where Coffey just stood there and let the other team score.

How did willus3 put it(He worded it almost perfectly)? More often than not, Coffey did the wrong thing defensively. He often just stood there and looked lost and let the other guy score on them like he did not know what to do. Always played the puck and never the man and it often cost him. Often afraid to go into corners.

 

[redbull]

Coffey for sure. I don't understand what people are saying about Coffey. When the chips were down he was as good as anyone else. Example:

1984 Canada Cup Canada vs. Russia semifinal overtime. Coffey intercepts the pass on a threatening two on one. He was the only defenseman back after an untimely pinch from Doug Wilson. In one fluid motion he intercepts the pass gets up off his knees and immediately darts end to end the other way. The puck goes into the corner and eventually gets back to Coffey who rifles a wrist shot that Bossy deflects in for the winner.

Yeah I know we've heard about this before. But I will say this again. I figure there is only one other person in NHL history who can make that play, and that's Orr. No one else would have the instincts and the speed to break up a pass and immediately go against the grain the other way. Who else could do that play? No one I know of.

That's just an example but Coffey beats Leetch in every avenue I can think of. All-star noms, Norris Trophies, Cups, postseason play, clutch play, passing, scoring, rushing, skating. Coffey also was rarely out of position. Neither was overly physical and while Leetch wasn't bad defensively I don't see him any better than a prime Coffey. The 100 point seasons are another edge to Coffey.

it's coffey and it's not close.

sure he had the benefit of great offensive players around him but coffey's abilities, talent, skating were many level above leetch (who i am a big fan of, by the way)

coffey never hit anyone, couldn't dig a puck out of the corner and never blocked a shot. but he was able to grab the puck and move it our of the zone better than anyone I've ever seen by far (never saw Orr in his prime but I believe he was probably better than coffey at this)

Niedermayer is the closest I've seen to coffey in that ability. Leetch, certainly. Potvin & Bourque as well (but they did many other things extremely well)

sometime, "great defensively" infers a shut-down type guy (like pronger) or a tough guy to pay against because he's physical or just dirty - but coffey's ability to evade danger and keep the puck out of the zone was greatly underrated.

what hurt coffey, in a way, was how fluid a skater he was and how fast he was. It looked effortless at times, which made it APPEAR as though he wasn't competing hard, like he was floating.

In many games, he did (because he could) float. In those meaningless february games he did float. a lot of great players and great teams did. They called it "pacing themselves" for the marathon where the measure of a player & team is in the april-may games (now june as well )

 

[BraveCanadian]

"Joining the Oilers was a great opportunity for me to get a chance to play on a young team that had a lot of talent," Coffey said. "I was always a good skater, but I was not as offensively oriented as a junior as I was as a pro. That was the style Glen Sather wanted me to play. My first partner was Gary Lariviere and he gave me a lot of confidence. I had the green light every time I was on the ice. Then, working with Charlie Huddy, we took it to another level. He allowed me to play the way they wanted me to play. Charlie was a very good defenseman and we had a lot of fun playing together."

How much of Coffey concentrating so much on offense was a lack of his ability to do defense, and how much of it was that his coaches didn't want him concentrating on defense?

He did show he could play less risky, more conservative and still produce offensively while in Detroit.

Edit - And that play gets brought up a lot because it was a big stage.. a huge 2 on 1 and Coffey made a spectacular defensive play. Spectacular play tends to get brought up.