Confirmed with Link: Coburn Traded to Tampa Bay for Radko Gudas & 2 Picks (1st & 3rd)

[mja]

Yep, and Schenn and Couturier also improved a lot since last year. "Advanced" stats are not meant to evaluate players individually. I like Gudas, but he's a third pairing D on most teams in the league. Coburn is a true top 4.

I think you are underrating Gudas. He's developed into a legitimate #4 guy this year.

 

[CodyTheHuman]

I feel like he should get a shot on the second PP unit. He can't make it any worse.

 

[PALE PWNR]

It's better than that. Zhitnik was only a Flyer for 31 games. The Flyers dealt Freddy Meyer to the Isles for Zhitnik and then flipped him for Coburn months later. How did the Flyers acquire Meyer? Undrafted free agent. So they turned literally nothing into 8+ years of Coburn, Gudas, Konecny, & Tomek.

So what it all comes down to, is we can all thank the Islanders for 8 years of Coburn, Gudas, Konecny, and Tomek. Thanks Mike Milbury!

 

[lancer247]

I think you are underrating Gudas. He's developed into a legitimate #4 guy this year.

We'll see. As nice of a season he as he is having I don't see a long playoff run with him matched up against guys like Malkin or AO.

 

[Winston Wolf]

He'll look even better once he's away from Schultz. Gudas can competently move the puck, but he shouldn't be the go to puck mover on a pairing. At this point, Schultz really struggles getting the puck out of the zone, even if he has plenty of time and space.

I really don't think he would be a bad partner for Ghost.

 

[PALE PWNR]

He'll look even better once he's away from Schultz. Gudas can competently move the puck, but he shouldn't be the go to puck mover on a pairing. At this point, Schultz really struggles getting the puck out of the zone, even if he has plenty of time and space.

I really don't think he would be a bad partner for Ghost.

They both play the same side. Ghost could play left. But we need guys that can play on their offhand side

 

[The Rage Kage]

I think he'll be good with Provorov next year

 

[GKJ]

Don't forget that Gudas himself was playing very well with Del Zotto.

 

[flyersfan018]

Less than 2 years of Zhitnik? 31 games. 70 days.

Meyer was here longer than that, but the first trade did cost us a 3rd round pick too.

It's better than that. Zhitnik was only a Flyer for 31 games. The Flyers dealt Freddy Meyer to the Isles for Zhitnik and then flipped him for Coburn months later. How did the Flyers acquire Meyer? Undrafted free agent. So they turned literally nothing into 8+ years of Coburn, Gudas, Konecny, & Tomek.

Excuse my poor wording. I meant Atlanta had him for less than 2 seasons.

 

[RJ8812*]

Homer knew what he was doing when he moved Meyer for Zhitnik. Teams love those vet defenseman for playoff runs. He got even more lucky when ATL was overly desperate to make the playoffs. I think he was hoping to get the same kind of return when he made that move for Mike Pork, but it backfired.

The trade was one of Homer's best. It's too bad Coburn was never the same after that eye injury.

 

[Sawdalite]

Homer knew what he was doing when he moved Meyer for Zhitnik. Teams love those vet defenseman for playoff runs. He got even more lucky when ATL was overly desperate to make the playoffs. I think he was hoping to get the same kind of return when he made that move for Mike Pork, but it backfired.

The trade was one of Homer's best. It's too bad Coburn was never the same after that eye injury.

Mike York????

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Gudas has turned out better than I expected, but I'm not sure I'm on the bandwagon of him being a legitimate top four defender. For one thing, it is indisputable that he doesn't put up the points like a top four defender. He certainly does other things well, but when you are talking about top four defenders you're normally talking about guys who are either putting up points while playing good defense, or putting up a ton of points while lacking on defense, or playing lights out on defense while putting up less points. I don't think Gudas falls in to any of those categories. I can't really think of too many consensus "top four" defenseman that aren't putting up good numbers. Not saying they don't exist, I just can't think of any right now. Maybe someone has some sort of comparable that most people would agree is a top four guy.

 

[Appleyard]

There are a few top 4 guys who generally pace for similar or less points than what Gudas is pacing for and has paced for over last few years:

Tanev (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Greene (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Hjalmarsson (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Klein (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Larsson (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Petry (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Kulikov (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Alzner (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Bieksa (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Methot (20 per 82 since 2013-14)
de Haan (18 per 82 since 2013-14)
Oduya (17 per 82 since 2013-14)
Brodin (16 per 82 since 2013-14)
Ericsson (16 per 82 since 2013-14)
Coburn (16 per 82 since 2013-14)


Gudas is at 20 per 82 over his career so far.

 

[Curufinwe]

Indisputable...

DFF had no problem calling Coburn a top 4 dman despite his lack of points, but now it's "indisputable" that Gudas' lack of points means he's not a top 4 defender. Except Gudas scores at a higher rate than Coburn in the past four seasons.

If your argument is based on pure hypocrisy and ignorance of the statistical facts then you're better off not making it.

 

[LEIFey]

Mike York????

Peppermint Fatty remains my favorite nickname for a crappy Flyer.

 

[Bob Clarke Fan Club]

There are a few top 4 guys who generally pace for similar or less points than what Gudas is pacing for and has paced for over last few years:

Tanev (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Greene (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Hjalmarsson (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Klein (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Larsson (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Petry (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Kulikov (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Alzner (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Bieksa (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Methot (20 per 82 since 2013-14)
de Haan (18 per 82 since 2013-14)
Oduya (17 per 82 since 2013-14)
Brodin (16 per 82 since 2013-14)
Ericsson (16 per 82 since 2013-14)
Coburn (16 per 82 since 2013-14)


Gudas is at 20 per 82 over his career so far.

He reminds me of Bieksa quite a bit, Much more likeable though.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

There are a few top 4 guys who generally pace for similar or less points than what Gudas is pacing for and has paced for over last few years:

Tanev (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Greene (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Hjalmarsson (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Klein (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Larsson (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Petry (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Kulikov (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Alzner (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Bieksa (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Methot (20 per 82 since 2013-14)
de Haan (18 per 82 since 2013-14)
Oduya (17 per 82 since 2013-14)
Brodin (16 per 82 since 2013-14)
Ericsson (16 per 82 since 2013-14)
Coburn (16 per 82 since 2013-14)


Gudas is at 20 per 82 over his career so far.

A lot of these guys fall into the category of doing the defensive part of the game better than the other part of their games (Oduya, Brodin, Larsson, Klein, Greene, and Coburn I think fall into that category). A guy like Bieksa is a guy that throughout his career has consistently put up good numbers when healthy, at 34 yes his scoring has slowed down, but I'm not sure at this point in his career I'd still want him in my top 4.

Indisputable...

DFF had no problem calling Coburn a top 4 dman despite his lack of points, but now it's "indisputable" that Gudas' lack of points means he's not a top 4 defender. Except Gudas scores at a higher rate than Coburn in the past four seasons.

If your argument is based on pure hypocrisy and ignorance of the statistical facts then you're better off not making it.

I think you might want to read my entire post. I said there are three categories of what I would consider top four defenders. Ones who put up good points while playing good defense. Ones who put up fewer points while playing better defense. And ones who put up more points while playing worse defense. I don't think Radko Gudas falls into any one of those categories. He has the same amount of points as Luke Schenn...is Luke Schenn a top four defenseman?

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

**** Luke Schenn has the same number of points in fewer games than Gudas, I guess they are both producing like a top four defender, but Schenn is actually producing better!

 

[deadhead]

There are a few top 4 guys who generally pace for similar or less points than what Gudas is pacing for and has paced for over last few years:

Tanev (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Greene (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Hjalmarsson (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Klein (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Larsson (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Petry (22 per 82 since 2013-14)
Kulikov (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Alzner (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Bieksa (21 per 82 since 2013-14)
Methot (20 per 82 since 2013-14)
de Haan (18 per 82 since 2013-14)
Oduya (17 per 82 since 2013-14)
Brodin (16 per 82 since 2013-14)
Ericsson (16 per 82 since 2013-14)
Coburn (16 per 82 since 2013-14)


Gudas is at 20 per 82 over his career so far.

It's easy to forget how inexperienced Gudas is, the last few weeks is probably the first time he's felt confident enough to step up and play a larger role offensively. He shouldn't be a huge scorer because you'd want to pair him with an offensive defenseman, I think had MDZ stayed healthy they'd be our top pair right now. In that case, he'd pinch at the point and fire on net, but won't be getting the "cheap" points from rushing the net.

Gudas has a very good shot from the point, you don't want him skating up and playing too aggressively because he's an average skater (not L Schenn/Grossman slow, but lacks the second gear) and will struggle to recover, but he's very good at getting a hard shot on net, which is a tangible skill.

 

[Appleyard]

Gudas is however this year at:

-3.88 CA/60 rel (36th best amongst NHL Dmen)
+4.6 CF% rel (15th best amongst NHL Dmen)

53.81 CA/60 (77th best amongst NHL Dmen)
53.2% CF% (26th best amongst NHL Dmen)


His defensive metrics are better than the majority of those players... and he does not exactly play easy minutes.



He has played at top 4 level this season all things considered... if he could keep up this level of play going forward I think he could certainly be considered a #4.

 

[deadhead]

**** Luke Schenn has the same number of points in fewer games than Gudas, I guess they are both producing like a top four defender, but Schenn is actually producing better!

Gudas is far better defensively than L Schenn, the eyeballs and advanced stats both show it. He's a physical force, one of the top 5 physical D-men in the league, and while he had a bad two week stretch, otherwise has been the most consistent defensive defenseman on this team this year.

Gudas offensive stats are hard to judge, the last couple weeks he's scoring at a 40-50 point pace, probably unsustainable, but enough to suggest he'll be more like a 30 point scorer going forward.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Gudas is far better defensively than L Schenn, the eyeballs and advanced stats both show it. He's a physical force, one of the top 5 physical D-men in the league, and while he had a bad two week stretch, otherwise has been the most consistent defensive defenseman on this team this year.

Gudas offensive stats are hard to judge, the last couple weeks he's scoring at a 40-50 point pace, probably unsustainable, but enough to suggest he'll be more like a 30 point scorer going forward.

That's fine. The point I was trying to make, is that Gudas's offensive output does not put him in the category of top four defenseman. No one is going to look at his stat sheet and say that Gudas is a top four defender. I don't think his defense is good enough to make up for that lack of output either. He is better than I thought he was when we acquired him, but I'm not ready to call him a legit top four defender.

 

[Prongo]

DFF you're going out on a limb here. Just say you were wrong and step away from the argument.

Gudas is 10x the player Schenn is. I mean. it was pretty easily noticable when we decided to trade Schenn and not Gudas. Schenn was a UFA but he wasn't getting re-signed anyway and again was having a tough year.

Schenn really had one good year here with Kimmo and then it was tough to watch. Gudas is playing 20 mins a night while playing tough competition every night. Logging big minutes on the PK as well.

There is no denying he is a top 4 defender. his stats(not just offensive) and eye test tell that. He doesn't need to put up points to be a top 4 defender. He needs to play his game which is a gritty stay at home guy who can move the puck. There just isn't a universal type of top 4 defender. They come in all different sizes and breeds.

Look at Dan Girardi and Marc Staal. Both players really aren't offensive defenders but they were top 4 for a good amount of years for the Rangers. They play a similar style that Gudas does.

 

[Curufinwe]

Schenn was used strictly as a third pairing dman in his last three seasons in Philly. Everyone on this forum knows that and it's why he was traded, so it's comical to see him used as a comparison for Gudas who is getting 20 minutes a night against top competition.

It's the combination of ice time, QoC, stellar possession numbers and solid scoring numbers without any PP time that prove Gudas is a top 4 dman this year. The only reason you can't admit that is because you made a bunch of shamefully ignorant posts about him last summer that you're still desperately trying to justify.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

DFF you're going out on a limb here. Just say you were wrong and step away from the argument.

Gudas is 10x the player Schenn is. I mean. it was pretty easily noticable when we decided to trade Schenn and not Gudas. Schenn was a UFA but he wasn't getting re-signed anyway and again was having a tough year.

Schenn really had one good year here with Kimmo and then it was tough to watch. Gudas is playing 20 mins a night while playing tough competition every night. Logging big minutes on the PK as well.

First off, I did say I was wrong. He is better than I thought he was. I said he was a dime-a-dozen player and he is not. But I'm not going to say he is a top four defender just because he is not a dime-a-dozen player. As for the Schenn argument, it really has nothing to do with my feelings on Gudas or this discussion. The point I was making was that Gudas's production is NOT that of a top four defender. And it isn't. I was using Schenn merely as an example because Schenn has the same points in fewer games, so if you are going to tell me that Gudas's offense is at the top four level, then so is Schenn's.

There is no denying he is a top 4 defender. his stats(not just offensive) and eye test tell that. He doesn't need to put up points to be a top 4 defender. He needs to play his game which is a gritty stay at home guy who can move the puck. There just isn't a universal type of top 4 defender. They come in all different sizes and breeds.

There certainly is denying it. His offensive stats do not pass the eye test, and you do need to put up points to be a top four defender, and if you are not putting up points, you need to be playing defense at a higher level and I don't think Gudas is doing that, or at least hasn't done it consistently throughout the season.

Look at Dan Girardi and Marc Staal. Both players really aren't offensive defenders but they were top 4 for a good amount of years for the Rangers. They play a similar style that Gudas does.

Again, the point isn't that you have to put up points to be a top four defender. Most of them do, but the ones that don't play better defense than Gudas does. Girardi and Staal are better than Gudas. Girardi has never scored fewer than 20 points in a season and most of the time he's up above 25 points. Those aren't top four numbers...but he plays a very good defensive game. Marc Staal puts up similar numbers but plays an even better defensive game, or at least does/did when he's healthy (I'd probably say he's a top pair defender not a top four defender). Gudas maybe in their league offensively, but he trails them in their defensive game.