Coalition continues to push for end of Native American nicknames/symbols used in sport

[ichbinkanadier]

Meh, I think all that's kind of non-sense. There's three reasons why this kind of thing is an actual topic:

1. People LIKE sports, while politics is annoying. Sports are on TV and representation matters. (Hank Azaria stopped doing the voice of Apu when he realized that "Apu" was being used as a slur during hate crimes). Sports has always been at the forefront of this kind of stuff, like Jackie Robinson, Loyola and Texas Western, etc. People will take their cues from sports. So it's a good starting point.

2. The fact that other things are worse doesn't make something right.

3. THIS IS AN EASY FIX. There definitely ARE infinitely more serious social issues faced by those who don't like the sports names; But everyone knows that politics gets nothing done and FIXING those issues costs BILLIONS.

Changing the name of a sports team is literally "the least we can do" because it costs taxpayers NOTHING. It doesn't take political fights or legislation, or codes and laws to be re-written. It takes ONE PERSON who owns a team, and HAS billions of dollars that he's spending on the HOBBY of sports ownership.

Also, the role of merchandising helps offset the cost. While it takes millions to change logos, branding, signage... you're also selling all new gear to fans.

My point was to the Bkackhawks alone, not the issue in general.

Even still, I think Hank Azaria overreacted simply because people were saying Apu during hate crimes. That speaks more to the popularity of The Simpsons than any negative impact the character has. People too easily assume logos, names, characters have an adverse impact on those groups it depicts, but yet I have heard many Natives, Latinos, Indians etc have no problem with these depictions- Redskins, Blackhawks, Apu, etc

Changing names and logos isn't going to accomplish anything other than self-congratulations by those who sabre-rattle for it. Stereotypes are inevitable and the only way to truly combat it is to make people aware of the fact that human evolutionary psychology has predisposed us to engage in faulty logical thinking of which stereotyping is one.

 

[daver]

3. THIS IS AN EASY FIX. There definitely ARE infinitely more serious social issues faced by those who don't like the sports names; But everyone knows that politics gets nothing done and FIXING those issues costs BILLIONS.

"They" have a choice to at least try to fix those social issues. At some point, you have to try to take control of what is in your control to make things better for yourself and your group.

Start with not participating these high profile movements to change, relatively speaking, innocuous sports names that will have, relatively speaking, a miniscule amount of effect on lives and the issues they face.

The vast majority of people do not care about them primarily because they have their own issues and are just trying to get through life themselves.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Wellpinit High School, on the Spokane Indian Reservation (yes, Indian) has the Redskins as their mascot. Generic White People #1-46 & #48-100 were offended and wanted them to change THEIR school's mascot.

This isn't what happened. Washington state passed a law requiring high schools to review and ultimately change native themed school mascots. The law included an exception for schools with majority native population and/or was near a rez. Wellpinit is both. The school admin let the students vote on the issue, and they overwhelmingly chose to keep the mascot.

Students at Wellpinit, overwhelmingly Native American school district, vote to keep 'redskins' as mascot

WELLPINIT, Wash. – After most school districts across the state have moved away from Native American mascots, students at a school on the Spokane Indian Reservation have decided to keep theirs: the Wellpinit Redskins.

www.spokesman.com

And why does this story apply to all pro sports teams and high school mascots? Let's take the Kansas City Chiefs: they are not owned by natives, their fanbase is not majority native, and they are not represented, on and off the field, by natives. So what does your misrepresented story have to do with the Chiefs?

 

[ichbinkanadier]

This isn't what happened. Washington state passed a law requiring high schools to review and ultimately change native themed school mascots. The law included an exception for schools with majority native population and/or was near a rez. Wellpinit is both. The school admin let the students vote on the issue, and they overwhelmingly chose to keep the mascot.

Students at Wellpinit, overwhelmingly Native American school district, vote to keep 'redskins' as mascot

WELLPINIT, Wash. – After most school districts across the state have moved away from Native American mascots, students at a school on the Spokane Indian Reservation have decided to keep theirs: the Wellpinit Redskins.

www.spokesman.com

And why does this story apply to all pro sports teams and high school mascots? Let's take the Kansas City Chiefs: they are not owned by natives, their fanbase is not majority native, and they are not represented, on and off the field, by natives. So what does your misrepresented story have to do with the Chiefs?

I assume the implication is that due to them choosing the name Redskins themselves- even if for themselves- that perhaps Native names aren't so offensive to the general Native population?

I have seen non-white people complain about whites forcing changes in sports names, getting rid of cartoon characters like Apu and Speedy Gonzalez. Whether these people comprise a majority opinion, who knows. But it does at least suggest that white activists should maybe stop trying to exercise their superiority complex and stop talking for every group and let them fight their own battles- and even choose which battles they want to fight.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

But it does at least suggest that white activists should maybe stop trying to exercise their superiority complex and stop talking for every group and let them fight their own battles- and even choose which battles they want to fight.

I like how you say this, but also liked the post above mine: a white guy telling the "they" what "they" should and shouldn't care about

"They" have a choice to at least try to fix those social issues. At some point, you have to try to take control of what is in your control to make things better for yourself and your group.

Start with not participating these high profile movements to change, relatively speaking, innocuous sports names that will have, relatively speaking, a miniscule amount of effect on lives and the issues they face.

The vast majority of people do not care about them primarily because they have their own issues and are just trying to get through life themselves.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I think chief/chiefs is actually a fun name - There should be more teams named like "Mayor" or "Reeve" That could be some fun branding. There's probably a million minor league baseball teams with that.

My rule of thumb is I don't print any team name that I wouldn't use as a descriptor for an individual. Redskins and Indians clearly needed to be changed, and should have been changed decades ago.

I never liked "Mohawks," but I never boycotted the name. I'm 50/50 with Braves. For some reason that one feels worse to me.

I also find any team/fans of the team with Native American branding doing/encouraging the chop incredibly uncomfortable to watch.

Since we're in a hockey forum, I will say I'm really not a fan of the Blackhawks logo, but I do like the name. I don't think it should be changed tomorrow, but much like @No Fun Shogun said, it's probably not long for this world.

A local team called the "Warriors" used to use a similar logo, but have since moved away from it.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

I like how you say this, but also liked the post above mine: a white guy telling the "they" what "they" should and shouldn't care about

I was agreeing with the general point of his post. And I got the impression the "they" in his post referred to activists, not strictly minority groups.

 

[Reaser]

This isn't what happened. Washington state ...

Oh, you live here, too. So then you know the article is just the final chapter, for now, of a years and years long book. With you also being local and knowing what happened, then you know what I said is true.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

I think chief/chiefs is actually a fun name - There should be more teams named like "Mayor" or "Reeve" That could be some fun branding. There's probably a million minor league baseball teams with that.

My rule of thumb is I don't print any team name that I wouldn't use as a descriptor for an individual. Redskins and Indians clearly needed to be changed, and should have been changed decades ago.

I never liked "Mohawks," but I never boycotted the name. I'm 50/50 with Braves. For some reason that one feels worse to me.

I also find any team/fans of the team with Native American branding doing/encouraging the chop incredibly uncomfortable to watch.

Since we're in a hockey forum, I will say I'm really not a fan of the Blackhawks logo, but I do like the name. I don't think it should be changed tomorrow, but much like @No Fun Shogun said, it's probably not long for this world.

A local team called the "Warriors" used to use a similar logo, but have since moved away from it.

The Braves can simply change their colors to red, white and blue, use a military rifle nstead of a tomahawk.

"...and the home of the brave."

And the rifle will give the same groups something to continue to whine about

 

[daver]

I like how you say this, but also liked the post above mine: a white guy telling the "they" what "they" should and shouldn't care about

"They" can choose to care about anything they want. Just offering an opinion that their group's problems may not be solved with what I consider superficial activism.

Too bad one's skin colour automatically diminishes the value of an opinion. That's super progressive!

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

. So then you know the article is just the final chapter, for now, of a years and years long book.

If I had known that, it certainly wasn't because you mentioned it. You didn't even mention it was a law, introduced by a Native American rep of Washington.

I was agreeing with the general point of his post. And I got the impression the "they" in his post referred to activists, not strictly minority groups.

Well, daver has since clarified on who "they" are:

"They" can choose to care about anything they want. Just offering an opinion that their group's problems may not be solved with what I consider superficial activism.

I assume the implication is that due to them choosing the name Redskins themselves- even if for themselves- that perhaps Native names aren't so offensive to the general Native population?

My issue isn't so much that it may or may not be offensive though, nor am I (or anyone, really) making the argument that all Natives, everywhere and all the time, find all "Native names" offensive. But even then, obviously context matters on whether something is offensive. A good quote from that article:

Smokey Abrahamson, a senior and a member of the winning basketball team, wants to keep the mascot.

“It’s a very powerful word for us,” he said. “People say it’s a bad term, but when we use it at our school, I don’t think it is. It’s used in a different way.”

Emphasis mine

"They" can choose to care about anything they want.

Correct

Just offering an opinion

You were already correct, no need to add anything else

 

[ichbinkanadier]

If I had known that, it certainly wasn't because you mentioned it. You didn't even mention it was a law, introduced by a Native American rep of Washington.


Well, daver has since clarified on who "they" are:





My issue isn't so much that it may or may not be offensive though, nor am I (or anyone, really) making the argument that all Natives, everywhere and all the time, find all "Native names" offensive. But even then, obviously context matters on whether something is offensive. A good quote from that article:


Emphasis mine


Correct



You were already correct, no need to add anything else

I interpreted him to mean the same thing as I said: let the non-white groups choose for themselves what they see as an issue (directed to the white activists).

 

[KevFu]

"They" have a choice to at least try to fix those social issues. At some point, you have to try to take control of what is in your control to make things better for yourself and your group.

Start with not participating these high profile movements to change, relatively speaking, innocuous sports names that will have, relatively speaking, a miniscule amount of effect on lives and the issues they face.

The vast majority of people do not care about them primarily because they have their own issues and are just trying to get through life themselves.

Well, your saying this as if "they" AREN'T trying to improve anything else withing whatever community we're talking about.


Society in general has tons of problems, and two political parties in the US who don't improve things very often, let alone fix anything. It takes local, state, federal governments, political parties and laws to fix things in society.

Removing a nickname takes ONE GUY who owns a team to say "Yeah, it's time to change this."

It took Cleveland ten years to change from using Chief Wahoo as their primary logo to being the Guardians. Compared to politics, it's not that hard.

And again, Atlanta has a great branding choice sitting right in front of them: The Atlanta Hammers makes more sense than a name that came from Boston via Milwaukee.

 

[daver]

Well, your saying this as if "they" AREN'T trying to improve anything else withing whatever community we're talking about.

You are saying this as if "they" ARE trying to improve anything else within their community. All we know is what they are trying to do.

IMO, if they are trying to do something else within their community, it would become pretty obvious that changing sports team names is pretty low on the priority list.

It is similar to people marching for BLM. It is a superficial gesture towards a problem that is notably insignificant to other other issues and got an incredibly disproportionate amount of time and money.

 

[daver]

Well, daver has since clarified on who "they" are:

It doesn't really matter if "they" are being activists on behalf of another identity group or "they" are the identity group, individuals can make a choice as to what they want to support or not support.

With any cause that's focused on identity, one should be wary how much the fight will affect the foundational issues that are seemingly due to continuing bias, prejudice and discrimination.

 

[ManofSteel55]

So I assume you have the same problem with the Notre Dame Fighting Irish? And the Lucky Charms Leprechaun?

And if you have a problem with Azaria voicing Apu, then I assume you also have a problem with Ana de Armas playing Marilyn Monroe? Jodie Turner-Smith playing Anne Boleyn? Adele James playing Cleopatra?

Are you at least consistent with your stance or just another obnoxious virtue signaler?

Leprechauns are fictional creatures, that's like comparing apples to donkeys.

Can you explain how "Fighting Irish" harms Irish people? Have any Irish people or groups mentioned any issues with cultural appropriation due to the existence of Leprechauns?

 

[namttebih]

Clearly Redskins was a terrible name and Indians are from India, and not America. So both those names needed changing. But these other names seem fine. They honour aboriginal heritage.

They funny thing is that if you were to actually spend any time with them, they refer to themselves as Indians. Not once have I ever heard them call themselves First Nation's, Aboriginal - sometimes Native.

I lived in Thunder Bay, Armstrong (Whitesands reserve) and Chapleau Ontario for 4 years in my 20s.

 

[daver]

Leprechauns are fictional creatures, that's like comparing apples to donkeys.

Can you explain how "Fighting Irish" harms Irish people? Have any Irish people or groups mentioned any issues with cultural appropriation due to the existence of Leprechauns?

Exactly, this is nothing like the harm caused to Chief Noc-a-homa.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Blackhawks have the easiest one to change, too.

Just add a space and create a bird logo?

 

[StreetHawk]

Just add a space and create a bird logo?

Winter hawks in Portland did that. Went away from the Chicago logo. Moose Jaw same thing. Kept Warrior but changed logo to more an airplane.

 

[GKJ]

Just add a space and create a bird logo?

Basically yeah. Winterhawks did the same thing and had basically the same logo

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Well, your saying this as if "they" AREN'T trying to improve anything else withing whatever community we're talking about.


Society in general has tons of problems, and two political parties in the US who don't improve things very often, let alone fix anything. It takes local, state, federal governments, political parties and laws to fix things in society.

Removing a nickname takes ONE GUY who owns a team to say "Yeah, it's time to change this."

It took Cleveland ten years to change from using Chief Wahoo as their primary logo to being the Guardians. Compared to politics, it's not that hard.

And again, Atlanta has a great branding choice sitting right in front of them: The Atlanta Hammers makes more sense than a name that came from Boston via Milwaukee.

NOPE

The government can not and should not ever be relied upon to fix anyone's problems.

You need some Sowell. Specifically Migration and Culture. Groups that are highly successful are such WITHOUT any reliance upon any government. Instead they are wholly self-reliant.

Did you know that blacks in the U.S. were making incredible strides towards group success before LBJ' s so-called War on Poverty? The poverty rate fell from 80% in 1940 to 40% by 1960. The literacy rate was such an astonishing achievement it is a marvel to historians.

Then the government decided to get involved.

And government involvement is really just a means of buying votes. Anyone truly committed to freedoms would tell the government to stay out of it

 

[ichbinkanadier]

They funny thing is that if you were to actually spend any time with them, they refer to themselves as Indians. Not once have I ever heard them call themselves First Nation's, Aboriginal - sometimes Native.

I lived in Thunder Bay, Armstrong (Whitesands reserve) and Chapleau Ontario for 4 years in my 20s.

Shhh ..

Don't interfere with white knighting; makes them feel good about themselves

Leprechauns are fictional creatures, that's like comparing apples to donkeys.

Can you explain how "Fighting Irish" harms Irish people? Have any Irish people or groups mentioned any issues with cultural appropriation due to the existence of Leprechauns?

The name is "Fighting Irish", not "Fighting Leperchauns".

If anything, the use of a leprechaun makes it worse. It's like the use of Chief Wahoo for Indians

 

[KeydGV21]

This is happening in New York State as well with the public schools. Schools will lose a portion of their funding if they don't change their mascots/nicknames away from Native American names. Which then opens up the Pandora's Box of, is it really OK that students will be the ones harmed here due to actions out of their control?

High school students don’t get to vote for politicians or school board members…

So, for right or wrong, we as society have deemed that yes it is ok for students to be harmed due to actions out of their control…

 

[KevFu]

NOPE

The government can not and should not ever be relied upon to fix anyone's problems.

You need some Sowell. Specifically Migration and Culture. Groups that are highly successful are such WITHOUT any reliance upon any government. Instead they are wholly self-reliant.

Did you know that blacks in the U.S. were making incredible strides towards group success before LBJ' s so-called War on Poverty? The poverty rate fell from 80% in 1940 to 40% by 1960. The literacy rate was such an astonishing achievement it is a marvel to historians.

Then the government decided to get involved.

And government involvement is really just a means of buying votes. Anyone truly committed to freedoms would tell the government to stay out of it

I don't quite think we're having the same conversation.

I'm only talking about the Atlanta baseball team becoming the Atlanta Hammers.