Coach Discussion: Coaching (Mod warning OP)

[tbcwpg]

Keefe has that team clipping along at a .669 pts percentage since taking over. The Leafs also play a very attractive brand of hockey. Hiring the right coach can make a big difference to a team.

It may not work but imo that is never a good reason not to embrace change. Imo Maurice isn't the right type of coach for this roster and we would be better off with someone with a different philosophy.

As someone who watches the Leafs a lot, they have a lot of similarities to the Jets - their D play isn't great and they're good at scoring.

Keefe was groomed by Toronto for a few years - he turned down (or was not given permission to talk to) a few HC gigs with the understanding he's the next guy after Babcock is gone. It's not like he was suddenly given a chance and made good, he was doing well in the AHL for a few years in their system and was the coach-in-waiting.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

As someone who watches the Leafs a lot, they have a lot of similarities to the Jets - their D play isn't great and they're good at scoring.

Keefe was groomed by Toronto for a few years - he turned down (or was not given permission to talk to) a few HC gigs with the understanding he's the next guy after Babcock is gone. It's not like he was suddenly given a chance and made good, he was doing well in the AHL for a few years in their system and was the coach-in-waiting.

They have similarities, but they also post better possession numbers and are top in the division while their goaltending is not good, so some pretty huge differences.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

You can visit every team board with experienced veteran coaches on HF and copy/paste the comments between them.
After a loss everyone thinks their team's special teams systems are shit, they insist on playing veterans instead of the shiny new toys, they have lost the room, x player gets too many minutes, y player doesn't get enough minutes, and a laundry list of other complaints.
Basically "fire the coach" threads are like people complaining about rush hour traffic. Same conversation in every city.

I'm tired of this argument, 7 years and the team had 1 good year and has since gone backwards.

What's the definition of insanity again? That's what it feels like to me running Maurice out there year after year.

 

[surixon]

As someone who watches the Leafs a lot, they have a lot of similarities to the Jets - their D play isn't great and they're good at scoring.

Keefe was groomed by Toronto for a few years - he turned down (or was not given permission to talk to) a few HC gigs with the understanding he's the next guy after Babcock is gone. It's not like he was suddenly given a chance and made good, he was doing well in the AHL for a few years in their system and was the coach-in-waiting.

I know all about Keefe, I wanted him for our team before he got the Leaf job.

Who really is our coach in waiting? Vincent has been very good in a developmental capacity but really doesn't have the same type of team success as a coach like Keefe.

Maybe they brought Lowry in to be that guy, who knows but to me it doesn't seem like there is any contingency plan to Moe.

 

[tbcwpg]

They have similarities, but they also post better possession numbers and are top in the division while their goaltending is not good, so some pretty huge differences.

They're better at doing what the Jets want to do. I would say they have some differences but they're built similarly to the Jets. The Jets don't have a Matthews or Tavares up front though.

I know all about Keefe, I wanted him for our team before he got the Leaf job.

Who really is our coach in waiting? Vincent has been very good in a developmental capacity but really doesn't have the same type of team success as a coach like Keefe.

Maybe they brought Lowry in to be that guy, who knows but to me it doesn't seem like there is any contingency plan to Moe.

I think the "coach in waiting" thing was pretty unique. Most teams, including the Jets, wouldn't have that. Just look at all the re-hires around the league to see that 29 other teams don't have a contingency plan in place, and that whoever is coaching the Marlies now isn't the Leafs new coach in waiting either.

 

[Gnova]

I'm tired of this argument, 7 years and the team had 1 good year and has since gone backwards.

What's the definition of insanity again? That's what it feels like to me running Maurice out there year after year.

For half of last year people were talking about Maurice being coach of the year because the team was still winning after losing 3 of its top 4 D and another that often slotted into the top four.
Insanity is people expecting SC contender results with no D.

 

[surixon]

They're better at doing what the Jets want to do. I would say they have some differences but they're built similarly to the Jets. The Jets don't have a Matthews or Tavares up front though.



I think the "coach in waiting" thing was pretty unique. Most teams, including the Jets, wouldn't have that. Just look at all the re-hires around the league to see that 29 other teams don't have a contingency plan in place, and that whoever is coaching the Marlies now isn't the Leafs new coach in waiting either.

I think Washington tried it as well with Cassidy but that failed.

Oh Pens won their cups with Sullivan who was their AHL coach so I think it happens a bit more then you'd expect.

But yeah I agree NHL front offices seem to be Icredibly risk adverse when it comes to coaches, have to keep giving the same mediocre guys multiple chances to continue to show that they are mediocre.

 

[Gnova]

I know all about Keefe, I wanted him for our team before he got the Leaf job.

Who really is our coach in waiting? Vincent has been very good in a developmental capacity but really doesn't have the same type of team success as a coach like Keefe.

Maybe they brought Lowry in to be that guy, who knows but to me it doesn't seem like there is any contingency plan to Moe.

Don't worry his career will be destroyed by the Leafs within three years.
Maurice is the last man standing on coaches being successful after leaving the media blender of unreasonable expectations.

 

[surixon]

For half of last year people were talking about Maurice being coach of the year because the team was still winning after losing 3 of its top 4 D and another that often slotted into the top four.
Insanity is people expecting SC contender results with no D.

Who were those people? The team won largely due to Helle being super human. Outside of that the team was nearly unwatchable on the ice and had some of the worst underlying metrics around.

I'll give him credit for keeping the room from imploding but the team did not at all perform very well.

This season has been an improvement in quality but the same issues are present with this team despite imo gaining a significant amount of talent upfront.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

For half of last year people were talking about Maurice being coach of the year because the team was still winning after losing 3 of its top 4 D and another that often slotted into the top four.
Insanity is people expecting SC contender results with no D.

Maurice was getting terrible results once you looked past goaltending, thoughts for him being coach of the year were completely missing the mark on the credit for the Jets succeeding.

I don't expect Stanley Cup contender results I expect us to above average in possession metrics and to not be one of the worst 5v5 teams in the league I expect better than mediocre specialty teams. If we changed goalies Maurice would have been fired a long time ago.

 

[tbcwpg]

I think Washington tried it as well with Cassidy but that failed.

Oh Pens won their cups with Sullivan who was their AHL coach so I think it happens a bit more then you'd expect.

But yeah I agree NHL front offices seem to be Icredibly risk adverse when it comes to coaches, have to keep giving the same mediocre guys multiple chances to continue to show that they are mediocre.

The AHL guy does come in and have success, but those were situations where they needed a new coach quick and the AHL guy was the fastest option. I wouldn't say they were hoping Sullivan would be the next guy like the Leafs were with Keefe.

 

[JetsUK]

Maurice has never understood what makes up a functional PK unit so big surprise he is going back to the slow vet who is a poor pk player instead of trying a quick young player in the role. Also given our PK has been adequate lately why do we need another PK only player in the lineup.

From our retired Jets/Moose maven, a look at Ace PKer Nate's stats in the role. Poolman good as always and a few others can clearly do the job on the PK (and elsewhere, of course):

 

[voyageur]

From our retired Jets/Moose maven, a look at Ace PKer Nate's stats in the role:

But what happened to small sample sizes that we use to explain every rookie's faltering, like Vesalainen's CF%. Thompson only played 4 games this year. Albeit he wasn't good, he has a history of being one of the better PKers in the league.

And why FA instead of GA? When did results not matter? Because the end result is impacted on the scoreboard. Which would make Beaulieu our best PKer out of major minutes defensemen. Poolman has only killed penalties in one game. Though he should probably be back in the rotation, based on last year's success.

Seems like another reason to take shots at Maurice, but if we carry Thompson as the 13th forward for most of this year I'm not not sure that has hurt the team in any way. Might have the Hendricks effect, who was a part of the team that went the furthest, further than we did with any other 4th line/PB centre.

 

[Jets 31]

We are 9-5-1 not 1-9-5 if we were 1-9-5 then i could see the need , want for a change. I've said it before but if we miss the playoffs i'm in favor of a new voice but we are doing pretty good considering the change we've dealt with in personal. No Little , no Buff and no replacement for our #1 defenseman and right now we are also playing without Laine/Dubois . Go Jets Go.

 

[Whileee]

Teams with a 0.633 points percentage don't usually change their coach, especially if they've had a roster without one of their top players almost all season.

 

[surixon]

But what happened to small sample sizes that we use to explain every rookie's faltering, like Vesalainen's CF%. Thompson only played 4 games this year. Albeit he wasn't good, he has a history of being one of the better PKers in the league.

And why FA instead of GA? When did results not matter? Because the end result is impacted on the scoreboard. Which would make Beaulieu our best PKer out of major minutes defensemen. Poolman has only killed penalties in one game. Though he should probably be back in the rotation, based on last year's success.

Seems like another reason to take shots at Maurice, but if we carry Thompson as the 13th forward for most of this year I'm not not sure that has hurt the team in any way. Might have the Hendricks effect, who was a part of the team that went the furthest, further than we did with any other 4th line/PB centre.

It is a small sample but Thompson's XGA stand out like a sore thumb as well. Most of our regular guys are in the 6 to 7 range which is okish.

We really don't need Thompson in as our PK forwards and dmen for the most part have been decent enough. If you want Thompson to sit in the PB then fine but he isn't needed on the roster to PK right now.

 

[voyageur]

It is a small sample but Thompson's XGA stand out like a sore thumb as well. Most of our regular guys are in the 6 to 7 range which is okish.

We really don't need Thompson in as our PK forwards and dmen for the most part have been decent enough. If you want Thompson to sit in the PB then fine but he isn't needed on the roster to PK right now.

I'd agree with this. I think Appleton took his place. We're also not burning out our PK like the old days, when we took a lot of penalties, so you can get by with a 4 player rotation. If you wanted Thompson for an extra, well he'd have to prove something. I'd say that no one has runaway with the 4c spot this year, and Gustafsson will eventually become the best option out of all of them imo.

 

[JetsUK]

But what happened to small sample sizes that we use to explain every rookie's faltering, like Vesalainen's CF%. Thompson only played 4 games this year. Albeit he wasn't good, he has a history of being one of the better PKers in the league.

And why FA instead of GA? When did results not matter? Because the end result is impacted on the scoreboard. Which would make Beaulieu our best PKer out of major minutes defensemen. Poolman has only killed penalties in one game. Though he should probably be back in the rotation, based on last year's success.

Seems like another reason to take shots at Maurice, but if we carry Thompson as the 13th forward for most of this year I'm not not sure that has hurt the team in any way. Might have the Hendricks effect, who was a part of the team that went the furthest, further than we did with any other 4th line/PB centre.

Maybe. But NT hasn't been a good PKer for a while now. And if you're a weak PKer when you're already a weak forward elsewhere on the ice, then why are you playing at all? Because you're there as a "safe" player who doesn't need to be walked through the roles, and you're also likely at the last chance hotel as a player, so you'll do what it takes, from shot-blocking to fighting, etc.

I get the Hendricks effect -- but it didn't work the second time round, and we're also an older team now, with our own homegrown character vets in Statsny, Scheif, Lowry, Copp, JMo and DeMelo, etc., all of whom can also play hockey. Playing NT is more about the coach than the team, IMO. It's a warm blanket, even it it's not very good at being a blanket.

But who knows? Maybe he'll spark the team into a run that'll carry us closer to the POs.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

If the only way we fire Maurice is because of a bottom feeder record then he'll be here forever. Our roster combined with the Vezina trophy winner isn't going to be a bottom feeder no matter who the coach is.

I don't understand why so many are okay with the perpetual mediocrity. Yes we're 9-5-1, in the worst division, playing against the worst teams in the division. We are also still not getting great possession results.

If this team doesn't show something in the matter of improving their play possession wise and winning at least one round in the playoffs, Paul should go. I mean he should have already been gone before but what can ya do.

 

[grieves]

This roster is really good. Really damn good. I've come to realize that now. You have to roll the dice with a new coach. This team will never go all the way against the best teams in the playoffs. This team can go far but it will never beat the final boss teams unless the leadership issues are fixed.

 

[Gm0ney]

I don't know why Vincent would be considered a coach-in-waiting for the Jets for any reason other than TNSE's apparent loyalty hard-on. He's running Maurice's systems and getting even poorer results overall - of course he doesn't have the luxury of league-elite scoring talent and Vezina (or whatever the AHL equivalent trophy) level goaltending.

He's .516 since he took over the Moose. 807 GF - 849 GA. Finished 7th, 3rd, 5th and 8th in the division...and probably headed straight for the basement again this year. His team made the playoffs once and was eliminated in the second round.

If this guy is the heir-apparent, we might as well stick with Coach Horseshit.

 

[surixon]

I don't know why Vincent would be considered a coach-in-waiting for the Jets for any reason other than TNSE's apparent loyalty hard-on. He's running Maurice's systems and getting even poorer results overall - of course he doesn't have the luxury of league-elite scoring talent and Vezina (or whatever the AHL equivalent trophy) level goaltending.

He's .516 since he took over the Moose. 807 GF - 849 GA. Finished 7th, 3rd, 5th and 8th in the division...and probably headed straight for the basement again this year. His team made the playoffs once and was eliminated in the second round.

If this guy is the heir-apparent, we might as well stick with Coach Horseshit.

Well to be fair he has never been given much if any supplementary talent to work with on the Moose to offset the prospects so judging him on wins when his main marching orders are on churning out NHL players is probably not all that indicative of him as a coach.

It's really hard to know how he would do with a strong roster and with the focus being on winning.

 

[Gm0ney]

Well to be fair he has never been given much if any supplementary talent to work with on the Moose to offset the prospects so judging him on wins when his main marching orders are on churning out NHL players is probably not all that indicative of him as a coach.

It's really hard to know how he would do with a strong roster and with the focus being on winning.

There's no hint he's ever gotten more out of his team than you'd expect though. No one's saying "Wow! Amazing what Pascal Vincent is doing with the Moose!" Wasn't he demoted down to the Moose after another bad year for the Jets and TNSE had to pretend they were doing something without actually doing anything?

I saw a lot of Moose hockey the first few years after they came back from Newfoundland, and it was awful. Not even competitive a lot of nights.

Their 3rd season was much better - but I got the impression that was a go-for-it year with Zinger going out and getting some legit AHLers to fill the gaps.

I mean if we're thinking Vincent is the next HC for the Jets, why aren't Kompon or Huddy getting consideration? None of these humps are getting calls when there's an NHL coaching vacancy...and for good reason.

 

[surixon]

There's no hint he's ever gotten more out of his team than you'd expect though. No one's saying "Wow! Amazing what Pascal Vincent is doing with the Moose!" Wasn't he demoted down to the Moose after another bad year for the Jets and TNSE had to pretend they were doing something without actually doing anything?

I saw a lot of Moose hockey the first few years after they came back from Newfoundland, and it was awful. Not even competitive a lot of nights.

Their 3rd season was much better - but I got the impression that was a go-for-it year with Zinger going out and getting some legit AHLers to fill the gaps.

I mean if we're thinking Vincent is the next HC for the Jets, why aren't Kompon or Huddy getting consideration? None of these humps are getting calls when there's an NHL coaching vacancy...and for good reason.

I don't think he will get more then token consideration to be the next Jet coach myself. I juat don't think his record is all that useful in assessing his ability.

There are likely a lot of better candidates out there.

 

[Gm0ney]

I don't think he will get more then token consideration to be the next Jet coach myself. I juat don't think his record is all that useful in assessing his ability.

There are likely a lot of better candidates out there.

Oh I agree. I sure hope we land one (in the unlikely event that Maurice is fired anytime in the next decade)...