Moses Doughty
Registered User
- Aug 19, 2008
- 9,120
- 679
Chris Pronger
- Thread starter Moses Doughty
- Start date
revolverjgw
Registered User
Probably just barely outside the top 20. But he's not done and he's still elite, he'll have another Norris if he keeps playing like he has so far this season. Could be inside the top 15 by the time he's done.
Last edited:
pnep
Registered User
NHL DEFs. Total "HHOF Monitor" Points: (Seasons 1917-18/2007-09)
#
|
Player
|
Career
|
Seasons
|
Total "HHOF Monitor" PTS
|
Per Season "HHOF Monitor" PTS
1
|
Ray "Bubba" Bourque
|
1979-01
|
22
|
4066.00
|
184.82
2
|
Bobby "Number Four" Orr
|
1966-79
|
12
|
3654.95
|
304.58
3
|
Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore
|
1926-40
|
14
|
3506.80
|
250.49
4
|
Doug "Dallying Doug" Harvey
|
1947-69
|
20
|
3353.15
|
167.66
5
|
Nicklas "Lidas" Lidstrom
|
1991-09
|
17
|
3000.00
|
176.50
6
|
Red "Cornflakes" Kelly
|
1947-60 *
|
13
|
2410.50
|
185.42
7
|
Paul "Coff" Coffey
|
1980-01
|
21
|
2276.95
|
108.43
8
|
Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin
|
1973-88
|
15
|
2189.35
|
145.96
9
|
Chris "Cheli" Chelios
|
1983-09
|
25
|
2155.45
|
86.20
10
|
Francis "King" Clancy
|
1921-37
|
16
|
2134.35
|
133.40
11
|
George "Buck" Boucher
|
1917-32
|
15
|
2097.40
|
139.83
12
|
Pierre "The Bantam Bouncer" Pilote
|
1955-69
|
14
|
2074.70
|
148.19
13
|
Douglas "Brad" Park
|
1968-85
|
17
|
1822.15
|
107.19
14
|
Larry "Big Bird" Robinson
|
1972-92
|
20
|
1810.65
|
90.53
15
|
Sprague "The Big Train" Cleghorn
|
1918-28 *
|
9
|
1807.00
|
200.78
16
|
Al "Chopper" Macinnis
|
1981-04
|
23
|
1781.95
|
77.48
17
|
Scott "Captain Crunch" Stevens
|
1982-04
|
22
|
1644.45
|
74.75
18
|
Earl "SI" Seibert
|
1931-46
|
15
|
1602.95
|
106.86
19
|
Scott "Nieds" Niedermayer
|
1991-09
|
17
|
1515.50
|
89.12
20
|
Butch "The Big Beekeeper" Bouchard
|
1941-56
|
15
|
1461.05
|
97.40
21
|
Tim "Superman" Horton
|
1949-74
|
24
|
1427.15
|
59.46
22
|
Bill "Gads" Gadsby
|
1946-66
|
20
|
1401.35
|
70.07
23
|
Jack "Black Jack" Stewart
|
1938-52
|
12
|
1370.85
|
114.24
24
|
Brian "Leetchie" Leetch
|
1987-06
|
18
|
1325.90
|
73.66
25
|
Harry "Cammie" Cameron
|
1917-23
|
6
|
1317.85
|
219.64
26
|
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper
|
1937-47 *
|
10
|
1286.75
|
128.68
27
|
Marcel Pronovost
|
1949-70
|
21
|
1253.50
|
59.69
28
|
Sylvio Mantha
|
1923-37
|
14
|
1249.55
|
89.25
29
|
Jacques "Lappy" Laperriere
|
1962-74
|
12
|
1185.35
|
98.78
30
|
Allan "Snowshoes" Stanley
|
1948-69
|
21
|
1144.75
|
54.51
31
|
Rod "Secretary of Defense" Langway
|
1978-93
|
15
|
1133.70
|
75.58
32
|
Lionel "Connie The Clutch" Conacher
|
1927-37 *
|
10
|
1117.30
|
111.73
33
|
Chris "Prongs" Pronger
|
1993-09
|
15
|
1100.00
|
73.33
34
|
Tom "Bow Tie" Johnson
|
1947-65
|
17
|
1046.75
|
61.57
35
|
Bill "Quack" Quackenbush
|
1942-56
|
14
|
1043.90
|
74.56
36
|
Guy "Pointu" Lapointe
|
1968-84
|
16
|
1012.80
|
63.30
37
|
Larry "Murphs" Murphy
|
1980-01
|
21
|
985.25
|
46.92
38
|
Jean Guy Talbot
|
1954-71
|
17
|
981.00
|
57.71
39
|
Rob "Blakey" Blake
|
1989-09
|
19
|
973.00
|
51.20
40
|
Ebbie "Poker Face" Goodfellow
|
1935-43 *
|
8
|
962.75
|
120.34
41
|
Borje "King" Salming
|
1973-90
|
17
|
957.40
|
56.32
42
|
Frank "Flash" Hollett
|
1933-46
|
13
|
945.80
|
72.75
43
|
Mark Howe
|
1981-95 *
|
14
|
940.15
|
67.15
44
|
Serge "The Senator" Savard
|
1966-83
|
17
|
915.80
|
53.87
45
|
Carl "Skitz" Brewer
|
1957-80
|
12
|
844.90
|
70.41
46
|
Jean-Claude "Superstar" Trembley
|
1959-72
|
13
|
842.45
|
64.80
47
|
Ken "Big Ox" Reardon
|
1940-50
|
7
|
839.05
|
119.86
48
|
Babe "The Honest Brakeman" Pratt
|
1935-47
|
12
|
816.00
|
68.00
49
|
Kevin "Vicious" Lowe
|
1979-98
|
19
|
795.40
|
41.86
50
|
Ching "The Holding Corporation" Johnson
|
1926-38
|
12
|
780.55
|
65.05
* - DEF Seasons Only
* - DEF Seasons Only
Epsilon
#basta
Well below both of those cutoffs. Here's 15 players I don't think Pronger will ever pass over:
Orr
Harvey
Shore
Bourque
Lidstrom
Kelly
Potvin
Robinson
Chelios
Fetisov
Park
Coffey
Pilote
Clancy
Horton
Beyond that you still have Seibert, MacInnis, Cleghorn, Stevens, Salming, and several others. I could see him cracking the lower end of the top 20, but not much beyond there.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Here are my rankings:
1. Bobby Orr
2. Eddie Shore
3. Doug Harvey
4. Ray Bourque
5. Nicklas Lidstrom
6. Denis Potvin
7. Red Kelly
8. Larry Robinson
9. Slava Fetisov
10. Chris Chelios
11. Brad Park
12. Paul Coffey
13. King Clancy
14. Pierre Pilote
15. Dit Clapper
16. Scott Stevens
17. Tim Horton
18. Earl Seibert
19. Al MacInnis
20. Sprague Cleghorn
21. Borje Salming
22. Bill Gadsby
23. Brian Leetch
24. Serge Savard
25. Valeri Vasiliev
26. Rod Langway
27. Mark Howe
28. Jack Stewart
29. Bill Quackenbush
30. Chris Pronger
If Pronger actually finds consistancy, I can see him reaching as high as #16. But I think it's unlikely he'll end up in the Top 20.
1. Bobby Orr
2. Eddie Shore
3. Doug Harvey
4. Ray Bourque
5. Nicklas Lidstrom
6. Denis Potvin
7. Red Kelly
8. Larry Robinson
9. Slava Fetisov
10. Chris Chelios
11. Brad Park
12. Paul Coffey
13. King Clancy
14. Pierre Pilote
15. Dit Clapper
16. Scott Stevens
17. Tim Horton
18. Earl Seibert
19. Al MacInnis
20. Sprague Cleghorn
21. Borje Salming
22. Bill Gadsby
23. Brian Leetch
24. Serge Savard
25. Valeri Vasiliev
26. Rod Langway
27. Mark Howe
28. Jack Stewart
29. Bill Quackenbush
30. Chris Pronger
If Pronger actually finds consistancy, I can see him reaching as high as #16. But I think it's unlikely he'll end up in the Top 20.
Last edited:
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Dark Shadows
Registered User
1. Bobby Orr
2. Eddie Shore
3. Doug Harvey
4. Raymond Bourque
5. Nicklas Lidstrom
6. Denis Potvin
7. Red Kelly
8. Larry Robinson
9. Viacheslav Fetisov
10. Brad Park
11. Chris Chelios
12. Paul Coffey
13. Pierre Pilote
14. Dit Clapper
15. King Clancy
16. Earl Seibert
17. Tim Horton
18. Bill Gadsby
19. Al Macinnis
20. Sprague Cleghorn
21. Borje Salming
22. Valeri Vasiliev
23. Scott Stevens
24. Brian Leetch
25. Rod Langway
26. Serge Savard
27. Mark Howe
28. Eddie Gerard
29. Black Jack Stewart
30. Guy Lapointe
31. George Boucher
32. Bill Quackenbush
33. Chris Pronger
Dark Shadows
Registered User
tony d
Registered User
I'd have him somewhere in the top 25-30. He's been a really good defenseman in his career but I can name a few defensemen who have had better careers.
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2007
- 28,844
- 16,335
maybe i'm showing my age here, but can someone explain to me what makes salming better than pronger?
He looks like Rutger Hauer, which is badass. Pronger looks like he should be on Degrassi.
Dark Shadows
Registered User
Top 5 Norris finishes:
Pronger: 3rd, 4th, 1st, 5th, 3rd, 3rd
Salming: 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 2nd
Competition of course, was much stronger in Salming's heyday. In the first 2 season in which he finished 5th and 4th(Salming missed 20 games in this 4th finish) Orr won the trophies, and the following years consistently had prime Brad Park, Denis Potvin, Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, and Serge Savard(All of whom I consider better than Pronger)
Offensively, Salming had a phenomenal transition game, with brilliant tape to tape breakout passes, which often lead to him and whomever his lucky partner was to have +/- Ratings well above their teammates. Such a style did not always translate into points in the way other offensive styles do, but he was always noticed on the ice. I would take him over Pronger offensively in their best 5 years.
Defensively, he was top 3 in the league, and considering his competition, that is saying something. Always a great penalty killer and 5 on 5 player. I would take him over Pronger defensively in their best 5 years.
He had the misfortune of playing during the Ballard years with the leafs. In the playoffs he did play in during that dark era, he asserted himself as a very clutch defender.
Pronger has the Hart Trophy, but not everyone agrees with it(I would have had no problem with him being runner up to Jagr). The media outcry about defensemen not getting consideration for the Hart like they used to had almost made it a forgone conclusion that he would win it that year. Several better defenseman performances between Orr and him have gone without norris trophies.
Salming himself placed 4th(Nearly 3rd. Vachon edged him by a few points) in Hart voting in the mid 70's, being edged out by prime versions of Lafleur and Clarke, and beating out the prime likes of Robinson, Dionne, Perreault and Potvin.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Salming has 6 post seasons all-star selection. Pronger only has 4.
Pronger's career isn't over yet, and a few more good seasons will have him pass Salming on most people's lists.
Dark Shadows
Registered User
Yes, maybe 2 more seasons that have him at minimum as a 2nd team all star and he will have crept up the list. The gap between the 22's and 32's is not all that big when all things are considered.
Dreakmur
Registered User
If their competition was similar, I'd give it to Pronger right now. They both put up similar offensive numbers (in terms of top-10s), but Pronger has a huge advantage in physical play and play-off performance.
Salming, however, got his all-stars and point finishes against Denis Potvin, Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard, Brad Park, and a little bit of Bobby Orr. His competition was much stronger.
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2007
- 28,844
- 16,335
thanks guys. i hadn't realized salming had so many top 5 finishes, or that he was considered top 3 defensively when his career overlapped with savard and, later, langway. but then i only saw him at the end of his career in his last toronto years and in that one season in detroit.
in terms of peak, i imagine you'd have to give it to pronger's 2000 season.
in terms of playoffs, even given salming's weak supporting cast, i think you have to give pronger credit for what he managed to accomplish when he had the chance on the ducks, and for absolutely carrying the oilers that one year.
but salming does seem to have better year-to-year consistency in his 5 year prime. i can see pronger passing a lot of the guys directly ahead of him and reaching savard level in a couple of years. it will take an awful lot for him to break the top 20, though. hard to imagine what he could do to catch macinnis, short of winning multiple norrises or at least one norris and a smythe, and five more years at his current level.
two years ago, i would have said pronger and niedermayer are close career-wise. seeing how they've respectively aged, i don't think it's going to be close when both are retired.
in terms of peak, i imagine you'd have to give it to pronger's 2000 season.
in terms of playoffs, even given salming's weak supporting cast, i think you have to give pronger credit for what he managed to accomplish when he had the chance on the ducks, and for absolutely carrying the oilers that one year.
but salming does seem to have better year-to-year consistency in his 5 year prime. i can see pronger passing a lot of the guys directly ahead of him and reaching savard level in a couple of years. it will take an awful lot for him to break the top 20, though. hard to imagine what he could do to catch macinnis, short of winning multiple norrises or at least one norris and a smythe, and five more years at his current level.
two years ago, i would have said pronger and niedermayer are close career-wise. seeing how they've respectively aged, i don't think it's going to be close when both are retired.
Big Phil
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2003
- 31,703
- 4,146
I know others have disagreed ahead of me, but I would put Pronger at least even with Salming. Now yes the '70s were the most competitive time for defensemen that we've ever seen (an argument I use for Robinson/Potvin when going against Lidstrom) but Salming never won a Hart or a Cup either. So I think it evens out career wise. Pronger was/is also a better playoff performer.
I'd put Pronger ahead of Salming as well.
I have some major issues with how highly people seem to rate the group of defenders who were at their peaks from 75-79.
On one hand, I don't think anyone would argue that that was probably the worst period in NHL history in terms of overall talent level/parity/quality of competition. Between going from 6 teams to 18 in a span of 8 years and then tossing 10 WHA teams into the mix as well, it was a crap product through that period.
On the other hand, everyone wants to call the defenders who dominated that period the 'deepest group ever'. Personally, I don't think it's surprising at all that the top defenders of that era looked *really good* compared to the dreck that they were on the ice with/against.
With the start of the '80s and the integration of the WHA, the quality of the league went way up. And Salming/Robinson/Potvin were still well inside their 20s and should have had years of prime hockey ahead of them. And they simply didn't look *nearly* as dominant as the league got better. Yeah, they were still great, but the gap went way down.
Additionally, the 6-10 overall defenders in the league in the league at that point ... just weren't very good. Gary Sargeant, Robert Picard, Ron Stackhouse, Terry Harper were getting 6-7 overall All-Star and Norris finishes behind those guys through that period.
__________
As for Pronger - he is the greatest combination of skill level/defensive play/intimidation since Eddie Shore, and maybe the one season where Stevens was able to put all 3 of those things together at once.
It's a shame injuries robbed him of a couple more chances to win the Norris. To me, he was the best defender in the NHL in both 2000-01 and 2006-07 but just missed to many games to win in both those years.
I'd probably have him just inside the top-20 all-time.
Moses Doughty
Registered User
- Aug 19, 2008
- 9,120
- 679
Dreakmur
Registered User
I would say that Pronger is in the range of #20-25 all-time.
Not knocking Salming, but I find it difficult to understand the arguments in favour of him over Pronger. Yes, Salming faced better competition, but he was also at best the 5th best defenseman in the league over the course of a decade. Pronger has almost certainly been the second best defenseman in the league to Lidstrom for the past decade. Salming may have faced better competition, but Pronger has stood out significantly more against his.
Not knocking Salming, but I find it difficult to understand the arguments in favour of him over Pronger. Yes, Salming faced better competition, but he was also at best the 5th best defenseman in the league over the course of a decade. Pronger has almost certainly been the second best defenseman in the league to Lidstrom for the past decade. Salming may have faced better competition, but Pronger has stood out significantly more against his.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Has he really stood out significantly? Maybe he has, but more so than Salming?
Here is Pronger's Norris voting record:
3rd(1998), 4th(1999), 1st(2000), 10th(2001), 5th(2002), 3rd(2004), 7th(2006), 3rd(2007), 8th(2008)
Here's Salming's for comparison:
5th(1974), 4th(1975), 3rd(1976), 2nd(1977), 4th(1978), 3rd(1979), 2nd(1980), 10th(1981)
Eliminating egual placements, we are left with:
Pronger - 1st, 3rd, 7th, 8th
Salming - 2nd, 2nd, 4th
Based on Norris voting, it appears that Salming stood out just as much as Pronger.... and, as we already agreed, Salming did so against much stronger competition.
First of all, I don't think it would be unreasonable to think that Pronger could have two more Norris trophies if not for injuries (2001 and 2007), while the same could not be said for Salming. Second, you seem to be forgetting something else fairly important: playoffs. Pronger has been excellent in just about every playoff season in which he has played, and could easily have been awarded the Conn Smythe trophy in either 2006 or 2007. As for his Hart trophy season, Jagr may have been better, but Pronger was at worst the third best player in the league that year. Furthermore, Pronger still has several years left to supplement what he has already done, although I think his accomplishments to date already put him ahead of Salming.
Dreakmur
Registered User
What Pronger "could have" accomplished means absolutely nothing. The facts are that his Norris voting record is not as impressive as Salming's.
Pronger's play-off superiority doesn't outweigh Salming's superior competition.
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