CHL working on a deal with the NCAA, any truth?

[Corso]

completely agree on what you’re saying about the rarity of teens in the NCAA and it was part of my post about how limited the impact will be for some leagues.

All we know right now is this agreement will just mean some of the U Sports guys get to play higher end hockey for longer. Best CHL players will be drafted. The best undrafted CHL players are still going to take NHL contracts. In the first few years of this agreement, NCAA is getting a stab at already picked over players.

The question is what happens down the road, and where do the best players play. But I think that’s really hard to say right now. We can’t automatically assume every non NHL draft pick caliber CHLer wants to go to American college as a 20/21 year old freshman, and we can’t assume every non NHL draft pick caliber American 16 year old wants to go to the CHL. Unless I could guarantee myself a big role in London I’d much rather play a ton of minutes in the USHL than have to live in a different country. Chicago is definitely more attractive than a ton of OHL teams.

Not saying the fallout you mention is out of the question but the bolded logic is far from a guarantee.

Honestly very hard to say how this will look in ten to fifteen years time. Does the CHL keep the scholarship packages for the players who do not elect to pursue a pro career even though the NCAA offers full ride packages? Does the CHL keep the same standard contract agreement basically tying players to the league through their 19 year old season? Does the NHL keep the NHL-CHL transfer agreement? Does the NHL still sign drafted CHL players after two years even if they decide to take the NCAA route?

I would venture to guess that the CHL keeps the scholarship money even for players that go the NCAA route. There are a lot of teams in the league that bring in millions of dollars (yes I know expenses also run in the millions but revenue is revenue) and the optics would not be good for the league to say "sure, we treat these players as pros and expect them to act like pros and charge the fans 25-35 bucks a ticket to see them play but hey they're just amateurs so why should we take care of things like an education" They already had to settle a multi million dollar lawsuit over minimum wage issues and begged the respective provincial and state governments to exempt them from labor and anti-trust laws; so no I can't see them taking any benefits away from players unless they want further law suits.

If the CHL continues to provide benefits like a scholarship package and weekly stipends then I really can't see many players opting for the Chicago Steel over the London Knights or even the Saginaw Spirit. In fact I would venture to guess that the CHL will further expand into the U.S. I'm sure the OHL would love to put a team in the Buffalo area while the QMJHL would venture into the New England area are and the WHL would finally penetrate into California. In somewhat ironic fashion, this would be very beneficial to USA Hockey, as more elite, free to play and world class coaching and development would now be offered to more American players.

So yes, I feel that in order for the USHL to maintain their position as a top Junior circuit, they would have to either amalgamate or at least maintain a partnership with the CHL giving them a defined territorial boundary. If not, I really don't see how they could compete.

 

[BadgerBruce]

I’ve heard from one person I know who works for a Canadian-based amateur hockey governing body (that’s intentionally vague because the guy would shoot me if I got any more specific) that the initial idea is for US citizens playing in the CHL to have some form of NCAA eligibility, not non-US players. If true, that changes this discussion quite a bit.

 

[Corso]

I’ve heard from one person I know who works for a Canadian-based amateur hockey governing body (that’s intentionally vague because the guy would shoot me if I got any more specific) that the initial idea is for US citizens playing in the CHL to have some form of NCAA eligibility, not non-US players. If true, that changes this discussion quite a bit.

That would certainly change everything, now wouldn't it

I'm sure U-Sports would breath a huge sign of relief.....

 

[Juniorhockeyguru]

So for example, next year if a guy like Grayden Slipec wants to be closer to home against better competition, he can come to Kamloops and still keep his NCAA scholorship?

 

[Blueston]

As a transactional lawyer, it says you can terminate if they don’t pay you (sounds professional yeah?)

What it says is “if you don’t follow this agreement, you acknowledge we may go to a judge and ask for an injunction”, whether an injunction is actually granted is up to a judge. They have discretion, and would look towards, you guessed it, if the compensation received justifies an injunctive action weighing the harm to the ohl team and harm to the player if they are prohibited.

That’s a very scary sounding clause that’s put into a ton of contracts. It actually means very little. I'm gonna guess BadgerBruce is not a lawyer by saying "there's a lot the CHL can do" and his interpretation looking at the language of the contract. "We own you" is a particularly bad interpretation.

Notice that’s also like five years older than the whl one I posted that doesn’t say that. Sorry but “you’re our amateur slave” isn’t gonna pass muster. If they are pros, ncaa is a non-starter and they will never be eligible. If they aren’t pros, they have no enforceable machismo to prevent a player from leaving the league. They’d have to rely on ncaa teams not touching their 19 year olds by their own choice, without power to take action in that regard.

Whether they are pros to the ncaa and whether a contract is valid are 2 different questions. for a contract to be binding the player would have to receive some consideration, which could potentially but not necessarily be a stipend or room and board or any number of other services which a judge might consider to be sufficient consideration to make it enforceable. whether that makes him a pro to the ncaa is for the ncaa to decide, regardless of what the mythical judge determines.

 

[Bubbles]

I’ve heard from one person I know who works for a Canadian-based amateur hockey governing body (that’s intentionally vague because the guy would shoot me if I got any more specific) that the initial idea is for US citizens playing in the CHL to have some form of NCAA eligibility, not non-US players. If true, that changes this discussion quite a bit.

To say the least!

I guess there's a lot of misreporting out there about the whole thing. If this concerns US citizens only then it's not big deal.

Will NCAA coaches vote to allow CHL players to play U.S. college hockey?

 

[DoyleG]

It is rather sad that, with some discussion, some people think that this is merely a conspiratorial act by Hockey Canada to get back at the BCHL out of spite. As noted, the issue of eligibility is due to the decisions of the NCAA. Neither HC nor the CHL can do anything if the NCAA changes its rules. As NCAA players can retain their eligibility even after being drafted, this isn't a huge reach for the NCAA.

The impact on the CHL and the NCAA will be LOW. The benefit that the CHL would get out of the decision is that Makar-level players can play in the league without affecting their NCAA eligibility, The balance is that the CHL is still a system that is oriented to the needs of the NHL and that professional development remains the same. As such, the NCAA's loss of talent to the CHL will be LOW as well.

For the USHL, the issues will be LOW as well and the talent they would lose will be balanced by giving other players, particularly Americans, an opportunity to play on the roster.

The effect on the CAJHL is HIGH, but not for what one might expect. It will be VERY HIGH as the BCHL will lose the main argument for its existence as a rebel league. If it is decided by the summer, it undercuts the AJHL rebels as the main focus for joining the league is gone and they leave themselves in a position where they return to the AJHL or be replaced by new entities in their communities. The other leagues, therefore, would likely see a return of talent that has left for the BCHL, as the lure is now gone and they face the need to retain eligibility.

The U Sports damage will be LOW, as the eligibility rules are far different from the NCAA. ECHL and AHL players can return and play in U Sports as long as the request for eligibility is filled out. It's not unusual to see AHLa and ECHL players on U Sports rosters. There are also the former NCAA players who can return and play as long as eligibility hasn't run out for them.

 

[cg98]

It is rather sad that, with some discussion, some people think that this is merely a conspiratorial act by Hockey Canada to get back at the BCHL out of spite. As noted, the issue of eligibility is due to the decisions of the NCAA. Neither HC nor the CHL can do anything if the NCAA changes its rules. As NCAA players can retain their eligibility even after being drafted, this isn't a huge reach for the NCAA.

The impact on the CHL and the NCAA will be LOW. The benefit that the CHL would get out of the decision is that Makar-level players can play in the league without affecting their NCAA eligibility, The balance is that the CHL is still a system that is oriented to the needs of the NHL and that professional development remains the same. As such, the NCAA's loss of talent to the CHL will be LOW as well.

For the USHL, the issues will be LOW as well and the talent they would lose will be balanced by giving other players, particularly Americans, an opportunity to play on the roster.

The effect on the CAJHL is HIGH, but not for what one might expect. It will be VERY HIGH as the BCHL will lose the main argument for its existence as a rebel league. If it is decided by the summer, it undercuts the AJHL rebels as the main focus for joining the league is gone and they leave themselves in a position where they return to the AJHL or be replaced by new entities in their communities. The other leagues, therefore, would likely see a return of talent that has left for the BCHL, as the lure is now gone and they face the need to retain eligibility.

The U Sports damage will be LOW, as the eligibility rules are far different from the NCAA. ECHL and AHL players can return and play in U Sports as long as the request for eligibility is filled out. It's not unusual to see AHLa and ECHL players on U Sports rosters. There are also the former NCAA players who can return and play as long as eligibility hasn't run out for them.

The USHL will have the chance to step up as a Major Junior circuit and if they strike a deal with the CHL leagues and become something like the 4th circuit under the CHL umbrella and compete for the Memorial Cup, theyll become the main Major Junior league for American players.

The Junior A leagues will suffer the most and will be relegated to the 'AHL/ECHL' farm teams to these Major Junior leagues instead of being the main recruitment centers for college eligible junior players.

 

[bigdog16]

The USHL will have the chance to step up as a Major Junior circuit and if they strike a deal with the CHL leagues and become something like the 4th circuit under the CHL umbrella and compete for the Memorial Cup, theyll become the main Major Junior league for American players.

The Junior A leagues will suffer the most and will be relegated to the 'AHL/ECHL' farm teams to these Major Junior leagues instead of being the main recruitment centers for college eligible junior players.

If this is the case I wonder what the future holds for NTDP. USA Hockey won't be on board with them playing major junior. A college only schedule for the 18s could work, but where does that leave the 17s

 

[cg98]

If this is the case I wonder what the future holds for NTDP. USA Hockey won't be on board with them playing major junior. A college only schedule for the 18s could work, but where does that leave the 17s

If theyre really deadset on having both NTDP squads playing strictly under the USA Hockey junior umbrella theyll probably just be put back into the NAHL like the early 2000s. Altho its not as good as the USHL circuit its still a really good, tough junior league for U17s and U18s to play in and they could still retain parts of the schedule for any college, prep, or international games.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Don’t think USA Hockey would just let the USHL go under the Hockey Canada umbrella. If the ushl was to be part of the same umbrella org as OHL, QMJHL and WHL, it would probably be a joint venture with a new name. Don’t think that’s too likely. If NCAA is gonna agree not to touch CHL kids until they’re 20 then draft bound kids that want to play ncaa should still opt for ushl. It’d not the early 2000s, the ushl has made up a lot of ground and isn’t a bad league. They’ve kept it small which has helped. 16 teams, and one of those is the NTDP.

 

[bigdog16]

If theyre really deadset on having both NTDP squads playing strictly under the USA Hockey junior umbrella theyll probably just be put back into the NAHL like the early 2000s. Altho its not as good as the USHL circuit its still a really good, tough junior league for U17s and U18s to play in and they could still retain parts of the schedule for any college, prep, or international games.

Potentially, but I think if the USHL joined the CHL you would end up seeing a majority of the top prospects passing on the NTDP as a whole and just taking the CHL route.

Don’t think USA Hockey would just let the USHL go under the Hockey Canada umbrella. If the ushl was to be part of the same umbrella org as OHL, QMJHL and WHL, it would probably be a joint venture with a new name. Don’t think that’s too likely. If NCAA is gonna agree not to touch CHL kids until they’re 20 then draft bound kids that want to play ncaa should still opt for ushl. It’d not the early 2000s, the ushl has made up a lot of ground and isn’t a bad league. They’ve kept it small which has helped. 16 teams, and one of those is the NTDP.

I still think it still results in the CHL taking talent from the USHL in some capacity.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Potentially, but I think if the USHL joined the CHL you would end up seeing a majority of the top prospects passing on the NTDP as a whole and just taking the CHL route.


I still think it still results in the CHL taking talent from the USHL in some capacity.

Yes on the margins. Likely more Michigan kids would go ohl.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Yes on the margins. Likely more Michigan kids would go ohl.

Same with New York and the handful of elite Pennsylvania kids

 

[WarriorofTime]

Same with New York and the handful of elite Pennsylvania kids

It's crazy how there's almost no junior hockey presence in New York State.

No teams in the USHL, no teams in the OHL, you have just one new team this year in Rochester that was just added to the NAHL and the Buffalo Jr. Sabres who play in the OJHL (GTA-based Canadian Junior A). Even the Eastern Hockey League only has one New York team, and the Eastern Premier League has one New York team. There are 13 collectively in the EHL and EHLP in Massachusetts for comparison.

An OHL relocation (I don't think they need any more expansion) into New York state would seem like a no brainer and would attract more NYS kids into the league.

 

[DaveG]

Does the NCAA consider any basketball or football leagues to be professional based entirely on the fact that a professionally signed player COULD play in them? While we're on the subject, is there any rule in the USHL that would prevent a signed player from playing (especially a kid who was playing NCAA who decides that that isn't the route for him)?

Football, not that I'm aware of, but it has very much been a thing with basketball in the past for players coming over from Europe. Deniz Kilicli and Enes Kanter infamously had to sit out large amounts of games due to playing on or against teams that had a professional player on it even though neither was signed to a professional contract.

 

[Bjindaho]

Football, not that I'm aware of, but it has very much been a thing with basketball in the past for players coming over from Europe. Deniz Kilicli and Enes Kanter infamously had to sit out large amounts of games due to playing on or against teams that had a professional player on it even though neither was signed to a professional contract.

These aren't exactly apples to apples though.

Both players signed ATOs to play on pro teams. The CHL restriction is the equivalent of saying that Kanter is banned from ever playing NCAA because he played for Fenerbahce Jr (which could have players signed to Fenerbahce Sr).

Note: the CHL restriction isn't a "sit-out". It is that one exhibition game means that a player is permanently banned under the current rule

 

[Corso]

These aren't exactly apples to apples though.

Both players signed ATOs to play on pro teams. The CHL restriction is the equivalent of saying that Kanter is banned from ever playing NCAA because he played for Fenerbahce Jr (which could have players signed to Fenerbahce Sr).

Note: the CHL restriction isn't a "sit-out". It is that one exhibition game means that a player is permanently banned under the current rule

It was often thought that stipends were a factor in the NCAA viewing CHL players as professionals and perhaps at one time it truly was one reason but the primary and now sole reason for the exclusion of CHL players rests on the ability of the NHL to send down signed players to the respective leagues. According to College Hockey Inc (official mouthpiece of D-1 hockey)

Because the CHL includes players who have signed professional contracts, the NCAA considers it a professional league. Therefore, players who have played a game - even an exhibition game - in the CHL are deemed ineligible for NCAA competition.

Now the NCAA has played wide and lose with this rule. It does not for instance view Junior players who play with and against signed NHL player in international tournaments as voiding NCAA eligibility. Furthermore it does not view "professional" CHL players from voiding the eligibility of all other players they may play with and against in any of the Junior leagues deemed to be "amateur" Many former "professional" CHL players have gone on to play in the BCHL. USHL or other "amateur" league and the NCAA never raised the question of possible "contamination" of their (ridiculous) notion of amateurism.

What is even more interesting, however, is that the NCAA has never branded any of the European junior leagues as professional in nature even though they feature many players who have gone on to sign contracts with the SHL or Liga (or Division 2 leagues) legit pro leagues and have come back or are sent back down to their respective junior clubs.

As you can see, the NCAA knows that they would be unable to defend the exclusion of CHL players in court. From what I was told, this was the primary impetus for the current "discussions" with the various stakeholders as to how to move forward with CHL eligibility. Certain college coaches/A.D.s from a specific conference asked for guidelines from the NCAA eligibility committee as to what would make a player ineligible under the evolving standard of "amateurism" In specific what exactly makes CHL players ineligible. This is what got the ball rolling.

My sense is that there are more college programs in favor of extending eligibility to CHL players than against.

And lastly (as I really hesitated to put this out there as this will really really upset the NCAA purists) this does not merely extend to the CHL. I've been hearing that when all the dust settles D-1 players may even be able to sign an ATO with an AHL/ECHL club and still maintain eligibility!!!

 

[cg98]

Don’t think USA Hockey would just let the USHL go under the Hockey Canada umbrella. If the ushl was to be part of the same umbrella org as OHL, QMJHL and WHL, it would probably be a joint venture with a new name. Don’t think that’s too likely. If NCAA is gonna agree not to touch CHL kids until they’re 20 then draft bound kids that want to play ncaa should still opt for ushl. It’d not the early 2000s, the ushl has made up a lot of ground and isn’t a bad league. They’ve kept it small which has helped. 16 teams, and one of those is the NTDP.

They wont join the Hockey Canada umbrella, but they'll probably make some agreement that will at some point allow for the USHL to feature a team at a Memorial Cup as a member of USA Hockey. They already have some sort of CHL-USA Hockey prospect game coming up next season and if the CHL-NCAA barrier is coming down, the CHL-USHL barrier for Memorial Cup will also.

 

[WarriorofTime]

They wont join the Hockey Canada umbrella, but they'll probably make some agreement that will at some point allow for the USHL to feature a team at a Memorial Cup as a member of USA Hockey. They already have some sort of CHL-USA Hockey prospect game coming up next season and if the CHL-NCAA barrier is coming down, the CHL-USHL barrier for Memorial Cup will also.

Anything that gets rid of that god awful host team auto-bid is a big win.

 

[Kingpin794]

It's crazy how there's almost no junior hockey presence in New York State.

No teams in the USHL, no teams in the OHL, you have just one new team this year in Rochester that was just added to the NAHL and the Buffalo Jr. Sabres who play in the OJHL (GTA-based Canadian Junior A). Even the Eastern Hockey League only has one New York team, and the Eastern Premier League has one New York team. There are 13 collectively in the EHL and EHLP in Massachusetts for comparison.

An OHL relocation (I don't think they need any more expansion) into New York state would seem like a no brainer and would attract more NYS kids into the league.

I know they wanted to get into Buffalo area but there isn't an OHL size rink there?

 

[bcspragu]

Anything that gets rid of that god awful host team auto-bid is a big win.

From a tournament standpoint it’s dumb for sure. But at the end of the day it’s still a business. without the auto host the same 3 cities would host every year because only a handful would be able to meet the financial obligations without the guarantee of a local team playing

 

[WarriorofTime]

From a tournament standpoint it’s dumb for sure. But at the end of the day it’s still a business. without the auto host the same 3 cities would host every year because only a handful would be able to meet the financial obligations without the guarantee of a local team playing

Somehow the frozen four can determine neutral sites years in advance but Canada can’t figure out how to get rotating neutral sites for the junior national championship…

 

[JiggsNY]

It's crazy how there's almost no junior hockey presence in New York State.

No teams in the USHL, no teams in the OHL, you have just one new team this year in Rochester that was just added to the NAHL and the Buffalo Jr. Sabres who play in the OJHL (GTA-based Canadian Junior A). Even the Eastern Hockey League only has one New York team, and the Eastern Premier League has one New York team. There are 13 collectively in the EHL and EHLP in Massachusetts for comparison.

An OHL relocation (I don't think they need any more expansion) into New York state would seem like a no brainer and would attract more NYS kids into the league.

New York (and NJ/ PA) is kind of in a funny spot. These are traditional hockey states but kind of stuck in between two models. To the west is the USHL, which is basically a mid-west league (closest team in Ohio). To the east in New England it's all Prep School hockey. And to the north Is OHL/ QMJHL. Too stuck in between everything to build out something of it's own, unless any ever expanded. Western NY would be perfect markets for an OHL/ USHL expansion if it ever was gonna happen.

 

[bcspragu]

Somehow the frozen four can determine neutral sites years in advance but Canada can’t figure out how to get rotating neutral sites for the junior national championship…

Canada wants to promote its product in its junior markets though along with the original goal of honoring fallen Canadian soldiers. Sure they could host the tournament in neutral sites in London, Vancouver, Halifax, Ottawa every year. But that does nothing to grow the game in cities like Saginaw, Kamloops, and Rimouski, which having the tournament in these smaller locations accomplishes. I’m outside of Saginaw and I’ve heard far more excitement about the memorial cup coming to town than then the frozen four that was scheduled in Detroit. Frankly because no one knew who would even be playing