Chicago vs. Pittsburgh: Paradigms, Thoughts and Concerns V.2

[mpp9]

He probably would have, but he was very good in the playoffs last year. I guess you can make the argument that it's better to trade a guy a year early than a year late, but when he was a big part of your best pairing, I don't think it's such an easy decision.

This summer, there's no choice.



There is that Handzus guy that caused the Hawks to deal Pirri for nothing.

But yeah, Shero has kept more grinders like Adams and Glass around for too long, no doubt. We'd be a better team without them.



If you're talking about UFA wings last year, I don't think there was anybody worth it. Which kind of goes back to the lack of pre-established depth.

There's still a lot to be determined on the Scuderi and Dupuis fronts. I'm not going to call them mistakes yet.



We could use some trimming. But not to the extent you're suggesting, IMHO.

Orpik has to go. If they re-sign him, there better be a damn good reason why. Whether it be dealing assets on defense for upgrades at forward or longterm injuries to many key blue liners. One would hope Ray sees Orpik's time here is over. Only thing I'm worried about other than the two unlikely scenarios listed above, is that Ray offers him a deal out of respect for being a soldier here for so long, and Orpik is willing to come close to it, and somehow a deal is struck.

I for one am hoping Brooks is a greedy **** this offseason. Take the money my man.

Hawks certainly have been lucky they've never been without Toews for extended periods of time. Their center depth certainly lacks legit top 6 options. But Handzus is a decent stopgap for the playoffs. Big and defensively responsible to cover up for risk takers like Kane.

Having an elite two way guy like Hossa also can alleviate their weaknesses at center. He can help carry a line when they roll Kane with Toews. We have no such luxury when we put Sid with Geno.

I'm with you on the Scuds signing. We were embarrassed defensively in the playoffs. Picking up a proven shutdown D while we had a hole in the top 4 is pretty obvious. Despres was much better off as a #5/6 this season. But Maatta came along and Bylsma Bylsmaed Despres from there on out even when injuries hit us and we needed him.

Dupuis. I dunno. I understand he's a guy Sid likes to have on his line. His numbers earned him a solid raise. And he's a damn good defensive player. But letting Beau take that spot and signing a guy like MacArthur as insurance would have been fine by me. We were rumored to be close to a deal with him, and then Dupuis and Scuds were signed. Gibbons, Megna, Vitale can take on his PK minutes. And hopefully will in place of Adams and Glass.

Adams absolutely should not have been re-signed. That was a clear get along gang/DB's pet type move. There's nothing he brings that can't be replaced internally. He's a nonfactor at ES. And as has been proven before, our PK can roll along with new personnel.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

This was what I said a couple days before the draft, so I guess that'd be about as good an answer as any:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=261944

Kessel IMHO was the Leafs best player in the Boston series and has about a ppg avg in the playoffs.

I feel pretty good about thinking he would of lit it up with Crosby or Malkin, even if Kessel's mom showed up to every game.

The guy has already put up 5 30+ goal seasons and he is a slick playmaker as well. He's a hell of a talent and after AO, I can't think of a better pure goal scorer at the wing position.

Exactly, although lets face it, Shero ended up picking up the worst player in the top 5 picks at 2nd overall. Anyone of Backstrom, Toews, Kessel and this team is much better.

Ya, it's just Kessel made the most sense. Taking Kessel meant Shero wanted to build around Crosby and Malkin. It just made no sense to draft another center there when you just got lucky enough to get two of the best ones to come out in years back to back. You get an elite winger and give those guys a sniper to play with.

All I can think of as a legit excuse is that Shero suspected there was a chance Malkin might of stayed over in Russia. However, Shero has pretty much proven he never had a plan of drafting to build directly around Crosby and Malkin. So that excuse probably isn't too solid.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

There is that Handzus guy that caused the Hawks to deal Pirri for nothing. .

Actually Bowman traded Pirri because of 3 reasons

1) Coach Q didn't like him so he was never gonna work out
2) Pirri wanted to be traded
3) TT was coming and Pirri loses his waiver exemption after this year

Also it should be pointed out that despite the good comments thru years from Bowman ,, Pirri was not one of his picks (Was remnant of Tallon era draft)

TT already getting hype/attention from Chicago media

And from Bowman/Q. Q compared him to Patrick Kane and has been giddy about him since camp/preseason

Scotty Bowman has compared him to Igor Larionov

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

He probably would have, but he was very good in the playoffs last year. I guess you can make the argument that it's better to trade a guy a year early than a year late, but when he was a big part of your best pairing, I don't think it's such an easy decision.

This summer, there's no choice.

Eh, there's still a time to cut ties, and I think that point came and went about 2 or 3 seasons ago with Orpik, especially because of the depth of the Pens' defensive prospect pool.

But yeah, even if one argues against trading Orpik prior to this year, I don't think anyone can argue about keeping Orpik beyond this season. If he's re-signed, I just think that casts a bad light on Shero's ability to cut the fat.

There is that Handzus guy that caused the Hawks to deal Pirri for nothing.

But yeah, Shero has kept more grinders like Adams and Glass around for too long, no doubt. We'd be a better team without them.

I know Handzus isn't exactly a stud, but I think there's quite a difference in quality between him and the likes of Adams and Glass. He's not devoid of skill (those two are), he's good on face offs (those two suck), and he's a big body who can be difficult for the opposition to handle.

Having said that, the key thing is that that's pretty much the only questionable player the Hawks have kept around for longer than maybe he should be around. And now with Teuverainen (sp) on board, it's doubtful Handzus will play above a 4th line role. Meanwhile, Shero keeps guys like Adams and Glass around, then goes out and signs/picks up additional useless players like Pyatt and Kobasew. Teams can get away with maybe having one of those types of guys, but it crushes your bottom six when you've got multiples of them.

If you're talking about UFA wings last year, I don't think there was anybody worth it. Which kind of goes back to the lack of pre-established depth.

I wasn't necessarily being specific. Although I'd say I'd rather Shero have given a shot to a guy like Mason Raymond for $1 million as third line depth, while playing a guy like Bennett on the top line, rather than tying up all that money and term on Dupuis.

There's still a lot to be determined on the Scuderi and Dupuis fronts. I'm not going to call them mistakes yet.

Dupuis is a good third line winger. His price tag, however, is closer to that of a low-end top six winger. IMO, I think that's an error to view Dupuis as that going forward. He was huge quality when he was paid like a third line winger but produced like a second line winger, but his value kind of drops when he's being paid to produce above what he normally does.

I'm torn on Scuderi. I guess if Orpik wasn't on the team, I'd be fine with Scuderi. I just don't like the idea of two guys who are pretty bad with the puck on their stick and in transition taking up close to a combined $8 million when some of that money could be split between a very cheap Despres and another quality winger.

We could use some trimming. But not to the extent you're suggesting, IMHO.

I'm not sure I'm being unreasonable with who I think shouldn't be retained. We can agree on Orpik, Adams, Glass, Kobasew, Pyatt as being guys that should be gone, right? So that leaves Dupuis and Scuderi?

As I outlined above, I think both guys are okay in a vacuum, but become an issue when you factor in all the things I mentioned above.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Orpik has to go. If they re-sign him, there better be a damn good reason why. Whether it be dealing assets on defense for upgrades at forward or longterm injuries to many key blue liners. One would hope Ray sees Orpik's time here is over. Only thing I'm worried about other than the two unlikely scenarios listed above, is that Ray offers him a deal out of respect for being a soldier here for so long, and Orpik is willing to come close to it, and somehow a deal is struck.

I for one am hoping Brooks is a greedy **** this offseason. Take the money my man.

Yup.

Hawks certainly have been lucky they've never been without Toews for extended periods of time. Their center depth certainly lacks legit top 6 options. But Handzus is a decent stopgap for the playoffs. Big and defensively responsible to cover up for risk takers like Kane.

Handzus has one more point than Glass. Imagine if DB were to put Glass as a fixture on one of our scoring lines. I can't imagine any player who could be put on the other side to mitigate the reaction.

Not Hossa.
Not a prime Howe.

I'm with you on the Scuds signing. We were embarrassed defensively in the playoffs. Picking up a proven shutdown D while we had a hole in the top 4 is pretty obvious. Despres was much better off as a #5/6 this season. But Maatta came along and Bylsma Bylsmaed Despres from there on out even when injuries hit us and we needed him.

That's a perfect interpretation.

Dupuis. I dunno. I understand he's a guy Sid likes to have on his line. His numbers earned him a solid raise. And he's a damn good defensive player. But letting Beau take that spot and signing a guy like MacArthur as insurance would have been fine by me. We were rumored to be close to a deal with him, and then Dupuis and Scuds were signed. Gibbons, Megna, Vitale can take on his PK minutes. And hopefully will in place of Adams and Glass.

I understand getting rid of Glass and Adams, but I can see why Shero wouldn't want to lose quality two-way depth and completely re-vamp his PK unit in one off-season, especially if Dupuis was going to sign for reasonable money. We were already losing Cooke.

Adams absolutely should not have been re-signed. That was a clear get along gang/DB's pet type move. There's nothing he brings that can't be replaced internally. He's a nonfactor at ES. And as has been proven before, our PK can roll along with new personnel.

Yep. He's old and slow. The price was right, but we should have cut bait.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Kessel IMHO was the Leafs best player in the Boston series and has about a ppg avg in the playoffs.

I feel pretty good about thinking he would of lit it up with Crosby or Malkin, even if Kessel's mom showed up to every game.

The guy has already put up 5 30+ goal seasons and he is a slick playmaker as well. He's a hell of a talent and after AO, I can't think of a better pure goal scorer at the wing position.

Kessel's produced well in the playoffs...through the 1st two rounds. I'd still take Toews over him, on this or any other team.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I know Handzus isn't exactly a stud, but I think there's quite a difference in quality between him and the likes of Adams and Glass. He's not devoid of skill (those two are), he's good on face offs (those two suck), and he's a big body who can be difficult for the opposition to handle.

Whatever skill Handzus once had has eroded. The guy looks every one of his 37 years. I mean, he's big and his faceoffs are almost 50%...I guess if that plus Tanner Glass productivity is what qualifies you for scoring line center duty, he's got it.

Having said that, the key thing is that that's pretty much the only questionable player the Hawks have kept around for longer than maybe he should be around. And now with Teuverainen (sp) on board, it's doubtful Handzus will play above a 4th line role. Meanwhile, Shero keeps guys like Adams and Glass around, then goes out and signs/picks up additional useless players like Pyatt and Kobasew. Teams can get away with maybe having one of those types of guys, but it crushes your bottom six when you've got multiples of them.

We'll see...Pirri couldn't manage to usurp him. Teravainen's not as big or defensive or as good at faceoffs as Handzus either, so it may not be a slam dunk.

Regardless, you're right in that Glass and Adams are dead weight, but Glass has only been around since the 2012 off-season so it's not like he's been hung onto for too long. He's just not very good. Pyatt was a mid-season NHL body when we were decimated by injury. Kobasew was a no-risk tryout who was waived...it's easy to say we have good young depth at forward now, but Megna and Gibbons were huge question marks coming into this season.

I wasn't necessarily being specific. Although I'd say I'd rather Shero have given a shot to a guy like Mason Raymond for $1 million as third line depth, while playing a guy like Bennett on the top line, rather than tying up all that money and term on Dupuis.

I'd have much rather kept Dupuis' established production, no matter what line he played on. To each his own.

I'm torn on Scuderi. I guess if Orpik wasn't on the team, I'd be fine with Scuderi. I just don't like the idea of two guys who are pretty bad with the puck on their stick and in transition taking up close to a combined $8 million when some of that money could be split between a very cheap Despres and another quality winger.

With you there. Making the obvious decision and getting rid of Orpik solves that problem though.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Actually Bowman traded Pirri because of 3 reasons

1) Coach Q didn't like him so he was never gonna work out
2) Pirri wanted to be traded
3) TT was coming and Pirri loses his waiver exemption after this year

Also it should be pointed out that despite the good comments thru years from Bowman ,, Pirri was not one of his picks (Was remnant of Tallon era draft)

TT already getting hype/attention from Chicago media

And from Bowman/Q. Q compared him to Patrick Kane and has been giddy about him since camp/preseason

Scotty Bowman has compared him to Igor Larionov

I appreciate the input, but in the context of this discussion, none of these are mitigating circumstances.

Bylsma not liking a young player, a young player consequently wanting to be traded, and potential future reinforcements don't justify prioritizing a steeply declining vet over a talented young player here.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Whatever skill Handzus once had has eroded. The guy looks every one of his 37 years. I mean, he's big and his faceoffs are almost 50%...I guess if that plus Tanner Glass productivity is what qualifies you for scoring line center duty, he's got it.

I think you're overstating Handzus' role on the club. I know he's played some games at 2C, but so has Shaw, so has Sharp on occasion. Handzus currently ranks 9th on the team among forwards in TOI/G, and that's including a team leading 2:41 PK minutes per game.

He ranks 4th among Hawks centers in ice time per game, behind all three of Toews, Shaw, and Kruger. So I'm not sure how that qualifies him for a scoring line center duty when he's used so sparingly compared to the other three centers.

Regardless, you're right in that Glass and Adams are dead weight, but Glass has only been around since the 2012 off-season so it's not like he's been hung onto for too long. He's just not very good. Pyatt was a mid-season NHL body when we were decimated by injury. Kobasew was a no-risk tryout who was waived...it's easy to say we have good young depth at forward now, but Megna and Gibbons were huge question marks coming into this season.

But that goes back to my point about Shero not knowing when to cut the fat. Okay, he acquired/signed those guys when he thought there was a need. Now that we've seen what guys like Gibbons, Megna, Scrabbles, Sill, etc. can do, then that's when he should be thinning the roster of guys like Kobasew, Pyatt, Adams, and Glass. But instead, a guy like Megna is sent back to the AHL, Scrabbles and Sill have been in the AHL (I know Sill is currently injured, but he was demoted before that), and Gibbons will be out of the lineup as soon as Bennett returns.

It's one thing to bring in guys like that when needed, it's another to hang on to them and play them ahead of better options when they're not needed.

I'd have much rather kept Dupuis' established production, no matter what line he played on. To each his own.

Keep in mind this was also within the context of freeing up cash to spend on a more crucial need. So signing Raymond to play on the third line for $1 million and using Bennett in the top six, would have saved almost $3 million compared to what Shero ended up doing by re-signing Dupuis.

That's the kind of savings I'm referring to when people complain there's no cap space because we have Sid and Geno taking up a lot of room. Instead of sticking with Dupuis, Shero could have brought in a replacement (Raymond) AND had more cap space to work with.

 

[Michael8771*]

For sure. Being a Manitoban, I've been a huge Toews fan from very early on.

Yep, and for good reason.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

I appreciate the input, but in the context of this discussion, none of these are mitigating circumstances.

Bylsma not liking a young player, a young player consequently wanting to be traded, and potential future reinforcements don't justify prioritizing a steeply declining vet over a talented young player here.

I and many other Hawk fans don't want Handzus at #2C

But at end of day Pirri's poor D (In Q's eyes) was never gonna work. Thus why he eventually was taken off 2nd line and then eventually buried back in Rockford before trade

If a young player is viewed by his coach as liability it isn't shocking a vet who did play big part in Cup winning team and has extensive history with coach/system would get nod

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Kessel's produced well in the playoffs...through the 1st two rounds. I'd still take Toews over him, on this or any other team.

Well he can't produce in a round he has never played in. That's kind of asking the impossible.

He has come up big in every playoff series he has played in and produced goals and points. He put up six points and four goals agt Boston, a team that knew him quite well, while Crosby and Malkin got shut down by the exact same squad. The guy has been a money player in the playoffs, and that is without ever playing with a dominant center.

And again, going into that draft, of the big four left after Johnson, Kessel was the only natural winger. He was one of the best pure wingers to come out in yrs. Why would you not draft this ultra talented winger when you just took two pivots back to back? Not just high end pivots, but two of the best in over a decade.

Toews has the intangibles people like to talk about, but I saw him melt down agt Det and need his teammates and coach to get him back on track. I just don't see how Toews would of been a better fit than Kessel, when all the guy does is produce, especially when it matters.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think you're overstating Handzus' role on the club. I know he's played some games at 2C, but so has Shaw, so has Sharp on occasion. Handzus currently ranks 9th on the team among forwards in TOI/G, and that's including a team leading 2:41 PK minutes per game.

He ranks 4th among Hawks centers in ice time per game, behind all three of Toews, Shaw, and Kruger. So I'm not sure how that qualifies him for a scoring line center duty when he's used so sparingly compared to the other three centers.

They've divided up time with other options there, but end up going back to Handzus. When he's not on the 2nd line he goes to the 4th, which would have an effect on his icetime relative to more entrenched top 9 guys.

The Blackhawks global mod wouldn't be coming in here rationalizing it if it wasn't happening, Sid.

But that goes back to my point about Shero not knowing when to cut the fat. Okay, he acquired/signed those guys when he thought there was a need. Now that we've seen what guys like Gibbons, Megna, Scrabbles, Sill, etc. can do, then that's when he should be thinning the roster of guys like Kobasew, Pyatt, Adams, and Glass. But instead, a guy like Megna is sent back to the AHL, Scrabbles and Sill have been in the AHL (I know Sill is currently injured, but he was demoted before that), and Gibbons will be out of the lineup as soon as Bennett returns.

Pyatt and Gladams certainly shouldn't be getting the amount of time they're getting. I understand wanting to work them in slowly, but DB does take it too far.

The Pens are thinning the roster of some of those guys though. D'Agostini was waived. Kobasew was waived. If/when we get Bennett back, I think Pyatt will be the odd man out rather than Gibbons. That's my half-full glass.

Keep in mind this was also within the context of freeing up cash to spend on a more crucial need. So signing Raymond to play on the third line for $1 million and using Bennett in the top six, would have saved almost $3 million compared to what Shero ended up doing by re-signing Dupuis.

That's the kind of savings I'm referring to when people complain there's no cap space because we have Sid and Geno taking up a lot of room. Instead of sticking with Dupuis, Shero could have brought in a replacement (Raymond) AND had more cap space to work with.

I don't know how we'd have been better spending that cash this off-season, to be honest. I know people want to write off Dupes because he had a **** start, but I'm confident he can still be a great two-way guy for the next couple years. Raymond's had a nice year, but he doesn't have the track record at either end that Dupes does.

If we acknowledge that we were already turning over 2/3 of our 3rd line this summer including a big part of our PK in Cooke, and Adams shouldn't have been re-signed, I don't think gambling on a lesser version of Dupes after he had a career year is a smart one.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I and many other Hawk fans don't want Handzus at #2C

But at end of day Pirri's poor D (In Q's eyes) was never gonna work. Thus why he eventually was taken off 2nd line and then eventually buried back in Rockford before trade

If a young player is viewed by his coach as liability it isn't shocking a vet who did play big part in Cup winning team and has extensive history with coach/system would get nod

Shh, don't say that too loud around here.

What you're saying makes sense of course. I hope everyone on this board sees that it's not a situation exclusive to the Pens, even if we have a few Handzuses (Handzi?) right now.

The context of our situation is that we've had older, declining (or declined) vets like Adams and Orpik taking up time when there is talented youth like Despres and Megna "rotting on the vine". It's become a rallying cry of hate for DB, among other things. Some of it is justified, and some of it is pretty over-the-top.

Well he can't produce in a round he has never played in. That's kind of asking the impossible.

He has come up big in every playoff series he has played in and produced goals and points. He put up six points and four goals agt Boston, a team that knew him quite well, while Crosby and Malkin got shut down by the exact same squad. The guy has been a money player in the playoffs, and that is without ever playing with a dominant center.

Yes but...Toews has actually done it. Twice. And brought size, elite defensive play, and faceoffs to boot.

And again, going into that draft, of the big four left after Johnson, Kessel was the only natural winger. He was one of the best pure wingers to come out in yrs. Why would you not draft this ultra talented winger when you just took two pivots back to back? Not just high end pivots, but two of the best in over a decade.

Because center's a more crucial position, centers can often switch to wing (Toews did play some wing in college and that versatility was another one of his pluses), and most importantly, Toews is a better player.

Toews has the intangibles people like to talk about, but I saw him melt down agt Det and need his teammates and coach to get him back on track. I just don't see how Toews would of been a better fit than Kessel, when all the guy does is produce, especially when it matters.

It's not just "intangibles". Toews is a more productive player over his career in terms of both points-per-game and goals-per-game. He's bigger. He's an elite defensive player who's trusted in prevent situations. He's one of the best faceoff men in the league.

So even apart from the intangibles that led to Toews captaining his team to 2 Stanley Cups while Kessel isn't even an alternate on a perennial also-ran, his tangible factors make him a more valuable player.

Yes, Toews melted down once against Detroit, but he's had a lot more occasions where he's risen to the occasion. Like...every other time.

Giroux has melted down. Crosby and Malkin have melted down. I'd take them over Kessel too.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Are you sure he's bigger?

Kessel's head alone looks like it weighs a few hundred pounds.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Are you sure he's bigger?

Kessel's head alone looks like it weighs a few hundred pounds.

Sure, he's got a giant head, but his rugged good looks command a big screen experience. Who wouldn't want that mug supersized?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

They've divided up time with other options there, but end up going back to Handzus. When he's not on the 2nd line he goes to the 4th, which would have an effect on his icetime relative to more entrenched top 9 guys.

The Blackhawks global mod wouldn't be coming in here rationalizing it if it wasn't happening, Sid.

My point about his ice time is that, yes I acknowledge he has been used as 2C at times this season, I'm saying you're emphasizing it a bit much as though he's the 2C each and every game. He's also not used all that much other than on the PK, as his ice time per game would suggest.

Besides which, it still goes back to my original point. Handzus at least still has some redeeming qualities to justify his (limited) usage. He's not the ideal choice, by any means. But at least he's got something going for him. The Pens tend to use guys a lot that are wastes of space.

For example, if Tanner Glass was the ONLY "useless" player that is given ice time on this club, I likely wouldn't have an issue with it. Even if the choice came down to Glass versus Gibbons or Megna, as long as there were no other Adams/Glass/Pyatt/Kobasew guys on the roster, I could live with that.

That's why I don't think Handzus playing sporadically at 2C is anywhere the issue compared to what the Pens have.

I don't know how we'd have been better spending that cash this off-season, to be honest. I know people want to write off Dupes because he had a **** start, but I'm confident he can still be a great two-way guy for the next couple years. Raymond's had a nice year, but he doesn't have the track record at either end that Dupes does.

If we acknowledge that we were already turning over 2/3 of our 3rd line this summer including a big part of our PK in Cooke, and Adams shouldn't have been re-signed, I don't think gambling on a lesser version of Dupes after he had a career year is a smart one.

But Raymond would be on a 1-year deal, just like the one he got from the Leafs. So if it doesn't work out, Shero can look for a longer term solution this off-season when everyone knew the cap was going to be going up. It wasn't necessary to lock up a guy like Dupuis, because he's not integral to the success of a hockey club.

Which goes back to my original point. Bowman's done a better job of locking up key guys, not complimentary pieces. Shero has a habit of locking up guys who are more complimentary pieces than key guys. Shero has it in his mind that you absolutely need to keep Dupuis or Orpik around, whereas Bowman understands that you can move guys like Bolland or Versteeg out as long as you keep your core guys.

As for the PK, it's been near the top of the league for a few seasons now, regardless of how much turnover there is. It didn't take a hit when Staal left, it didn't take a hit when Cooke left, it hasn't taken a hit when Dupuis went down in December. So I don't think it would have taken a hit if Dupuis was let walk and they had to divvy up the ice time among those who remain.

Particularly with the acquisitions at this deadline, between Goc, Stempniak, Sutter, Vitale, and Crosby, you've got more than enough guys who can PK that you shouldn't be concerned about missing Dupuis' or Adams' PK ability.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yes but...Toews has actually done it. Twice. And brought size, elite defensive play, and faceoffs to boot.

Because center's a more crucial position, centers can often switch to wing (Toews did play some wing in college and that versatility was another one of his pluses), and most importantly, Toews is a better player.

It's not just "intangibles". Toews is a more productive player over his career in terms of both points-per-game and goals-per-game. He's bigger. He's an elite defensive player who's trusted in prevent situations. He's one of the best faceoff men in the league.

So even apart from the intangibles that led to Toews captaining his team to 2 Stanley Cups while Kessel isn't even an alternate on a perennial also-ran, his tangible factors make him a more valuable player.

Yes, Toews melted down once against Detroit, but he's had a lot more occasions where he's risen to the occasion. Like...every other time.

Giroux has melted down. Crosby and Malkin have melted down. I'd take them over Kessel too.

Kessel is criminally underrated by people and every time he's needed to step up in the playoffs, he has. He hasn't been shut down in a series yet, but he, nor Toews can carry a team by himself. Toews has had a lot of help from elite talent like Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, etc.

Toews is also going to be a guy that is way more effective as a pivot, than playing wing. I'm pretty sure he would of been in Staal's role, and like Staal, eventually grown tired of being a third liner. I feel the same would apply to Backstrom as well.

I'm pretty confident that Kessel and Crosby/Malkin would of been a nightmare matchup for teams and he was the most logical fit there.

What's done is done though and at least Staal helped them get a cup. My personal conclusion is that Shero loves to overdraft at a position he puts the most emphasis on, ala pivot and puck moving blueliners. I just wish he had taken a more balanced approach, but I still hold out hope he converts these puck movers into a more well rounded team, eventually.

My biggest concern is one we haven't talked about, and that was Heinbuck's comment that the org places a great emphasis on puck movers on the back end, but not size, in regards to blueliners. Which worries me that they don't see how valuable a big kid like Despres can be moving fwd.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

My point about his ice time is that, yes I acknowledge he has been used as 2C at times this season, I'm saying you're emphasizing it a bit much as though he's the 2C each and every game. He's also not used all that much other than on the PK, as his ice time per game would suggest.

Besides which, it still goes back to my original point. Handzus at least still has some redeeming qualities to justify his (limited) usage. He's not the ideal choice, by any means. But at least he's got something going for him. The Pens tend to use guys a lot that are wastes of space.

For example, if Tanner Glass was the ONLY "useless" player that is given ice time on this club, I likely wouldn't have an issue with it. Even if the choice came down to Glass versus Gibbons or Megna, as long as there were no other Adams/Glass/Pyatt/Kobasew guys on the roster, I could live with that.

That's why I don't think Handzus playing sporadically at 2C is anywhere the issue compared to what the Pens have.

Yeah, we have an extra "Handzus" or two that compound the issue. We don't make any of them de facto 2nd liners, but their presence alone does cause depth/quality/speed issues.

I only wanted to point out that DB is far from the only coach of a contender to have his pet vets. Virtually all of them do, and some are as guilty as DB.

But Raymond would be on a 1-year deal, just like the one he got from the Leafs. So if it doesn't work out, Shero can look for a longer term solution this off-season when everyone knew the cap was going to be going up. It wasn't necessary to lock up a guy like Dupuis, because he's not integral to the success of a hockey club.

Which goes back to my original point. Bowman's done a better job of locking up key guys, not complimentary pieces. Shero has a habit of locking up guys who are more complimentary pieces than key guys. Shero has it in his mind that you absolutely need to keep Dupuis or Orpik around, whereas Bowman understands that you can move guys like Bolland or Versteeg out as long as you keep your core guys.

I understand your point. But I believe that the respective RFA/UFA situations of each team plays a bigger part than you do. Bowman got good returns for his RFAs who were due raises, while Shero would just be letting established, effective players go for nothing on a gamble.

As for the PK, it's been near the top of the league for a few seasons now, regardless of how much turnover there is. It didn't take a hit when Staal left, it didn't take a hit when Cooke left, it hasn't taken a hit when Dupuis went down in December. So I don't think it would have taken a hit if Dupuis was let walk and they had to divvy up the ice time among those who remain.

Particularly with the acquisitions at this deadline, between Goc, Stempniak, Sutter, Vitale, and Crosby, you've got more than enough guys who can PK that you shouldn't be concerned about missing Dupuis' or Adams' PK ability.

But...we only found that out this season. If we acknowledge that Cooke is gone and Adams should have gone, I don't think letting Dupes go is justified. I believe a successful special teams unit needs some continuity, no matter who might be available at the deadline.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Kessel is criminally underrated by people and every time he's needed to step up in the playoffs, he has. He hasn't been shut down in a series yet, but he, nor Toews can carry a team by himself. Toews has had a lot of help from elite talent like Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, etc.

Kessel is underrated. But he's still not as valuable as Toews, and doing it is still better than "might have done it".

Toews is also going to be a guy that is way more effective as a pivot, than playing wing. I'm pretty sure he would of been in Staal's role, and like Staal, eventually grown tired of being a third liner. I feel the same would apply to Backstrom as well.

I'm pretty confident that Kessel and Crosby/Malkin would of been a nightmare matchup for teams and he was the most logical fit there.

It's possible, but it's also possible we make the same mistake the Oilers did and focus on pure offense when drafting high, and we win 0 Cups instead of 1.

Toews is talented and versatile enough to succeed in any forward role. We saw how good Bergeron looked on Sid's wing. Toews would have been that plus, IMHO, if we chose to use him there.

What's done is done though and at least Staal helped them get a cup. My personal conclusion is that Shero loves to overdraft at a position he puts the most emphasis on, ala pivot and puck moving blueliners. I just wish he had taken a more balanced approach, but I still hold out hope he converts these puck movers into a more well rounded team, eventually.

In general, centers and defense are more important. The majority of Cup winners/contenders are teams who have primarily built down the middle, from center to goal. The Blackhawks are the notable exception with their hole at 2C...but their #1 and #3/4 centers have been exceptional and all have been very good defensively.

I've said it a few times, but this summer and will be the first real test of how successful Shero's draft strategy has been - how he manages Despres, Orpik, and Pouliot. If we keep Orpik and move Despres for scraps...ugh.

My biggest concern is one we haven't talked about, and that was Heinbuck's comment that the org places a great emphasis on puck movers on the back end, but not size, in regards to blueliners. Which worries me that they don't see how valuable a big kid like Despres can be moving fwd.

Despres is still a PMD, but you're right in that size seems secondary when they're evaluating prospects. Despres has a rare and valuable combination, and I hope our staff recognizes it.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I only wanted to point out that DB is far from the only coach of a contender to have his pet vets. Virtually all of them do, and some are as guilty as DB.

Of course he's not the only coach who has favorites. But the difference between those other coaches and DB when it comes to favorites, is the difference between most men watching porn on occasion and some dude with a wall-length bookcase full of porn videos.

But...we only found that out this season. If we acknowledge that Cooke is gone and Adams should have gone, I don't think letting Dupes go is justified. I believe a successful special teams unit needs some continuity, no matter who might be available at the deadline.

Our PK didn't take a hit when Cooke was out with that suspension a couple of years ago, and it hasn't taken a hit when any of the supposed key cogs have been out (Staal missed a good chunk his final year in Pittsburgh as well). So I don't think it's a stretch to think it wouldn't miss much of a beat after losing Cooke, and letting both Adams and Dupuis walk.

The fact that Dupuis' missed all of the second half so far and the PK hasn't missed a beat just further adds evidence to that theory.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Kessel is underrated. But he's still not as valuable as Toews, and doing it is still better than "might have done it".

Well as I've stated, Toews success is impressive, but he has also been lucky enough to play with as much elite talent as he has. If Kessel got to play with the two best centers in the world, and since he's already proven to be so money in the playoffs, I feel pretty confident he would of been a huge gamer for this team.

It's possible, but it's also possible we make the same mistake the Oilers did and focus on pure offense when drafting high, and we win 0 Cups instead of 1.

Toews is talented and versatile enough to succeed in any forward role. We saw how good Bergeron looked on Sid's wing. Toews would have been that plus, IMHO, if we chose to use him there.

Grabbing the best wing prospect in years to play with the two best center prospect in years sure seemed like a perfect fit. Shero literally had the best case scenario a GM could ask for with his first pick... Then he uses the second overall to draft a third line center.

It was just overkill. A bad move, etc etc. How many top two overall picks that were centers, were moved to wing? I am struggling to think of any.

If you wanted a wing, you draft Kessel. You don't draft a pivot that high with the idea of moving him to wing. So Shero had to of been thinking Staal would be his third line center.

I didn't get that then and now it makes even less sense.

In general, centers and defense are more important. The majority of Cup winners/contenders are teams who have primarily built down the middle, from center to goal. The Blackhawks are the notable exception with their hole at 2C...but their #1 and #3/4 centers have been exceptional and all have been very good defensively.

I agree pivot and blueline is how you build to start a team. However, he already had the two best young centers to come out in 20 years. Johnson was already taken. Kessel, was the logical choice.

Good third line centers aren't difficult to find, especially if that is your only big need. Why would you use a second overall pick on one? That slot should be reserved for top six centers, top pairing blueliners, and top line wingers.

I've said it a few times, but this summer and will be the first real test of how successful Shero's draft strategy has been - how he manages Despres, Orpik, and Pouliot. If we keep Orpik and move Despres for scraps...ugh.

It can still work out well, but he has to obviously do something with these assets.

Despres is still a PMD, but you're right in that size seems secondary when they're evaluating prospects. Despres has a rare and valuable combination, and I hope our staff recognizes it.

Well I'm not speculating here. Heinbuck straight out said it so... I don't like hearing that TBTH.

 

[zero8771]

Chicago beats pittsburgh is every category.

Better goalie

Better coach

Better GM

Better overall defense

More depth at forward

There's not much to compare. Everyone said they'd lose Kane or Toews before they signed long-term extensions last time.

Duncan Keith gets paid almost $2 million less than Letang's new deal.

Kane and Toews signed for a cap hit of $6.3 million, $300,000 more than Shero's offer to Jordan Staal.

The only similarities between these two teams is that they both play in the nhl.

One is an efficient mega company that makes difficult decisions that is in the best interest of the shareholders, the other is a mom and pop shop with way too much loyalty and family values.

then cheer for the hawks

 

[MtlPenFan]

I think the saddest thing of all is that the Pens organization sees themselves as being on par with Chicago. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[mpp9]

I think the saddest thing of all is that the Pens organization sees themselves as being on par with Chicago. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I disagree. They wouldn't have stuck with Maatta or went hard after Kesler if they didn't see holes in their lineup.

I'm worried that they know, and DB is going to be given another chance with a better roster no matter the outcome this postseason.