Change of system + Player Performance

[BreakfastatMarios]

Have been reading a ton of posts regarding players folks like and don't like, wanted traded and who HF posters want to run out of town. In no particular order these guys have been mentioned.

• Martin
• Letang
• Fleurry
• Scuderi
• Adams

I'm just thinking, perhaps we should give these guys 20 games into the new year to see if possibly a change of system/hc was the issue and not just them.

Each of the above players has played good and bad at different times so lets relax for first 20 games and see if the change of system might help.

With Crosby and Malkin this team has the luxury of taking some time and seeing if these players respond, and if not they can make some changes.

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[BreakfastatMarios]

I mention Martin only because of a potential trade value not for play specifically.

 

[IcedCapp]

I see no particular reason why we need to give Scuderi or Adams a chance to rebound under a new system. Care to enlighten?

The Adams part, in particular, feels like a Facebook post.

The guy is 150 years old, adds nothing at ES, is a marginal PKer at best. Can't skate, can't fight, can't stay in the play, can't possess the puck, and there are very loud rumors that he was a cancerous member of the locker room last year.

 

[BreakfastatMarios]

I see no particular reason why we need to give Scuderi or Adams a chance to rebound under a new system. Care to enlighten?

The Adams part, in particular, feels like a Facebook post.

The guy is 150 years old, adds nothing at ES, is a marginal PKer at best. Can't skate, can't fight, can't stay in the play, can't possess the puck, and there are very loud rumors that he was a cancerous member of the locker room last year.

Well Adams was misused by the amount of time given, if managed better perhaps him playing sparingly gets more out of him. We judged his performance, and others through the prism of Bylsma. He could very well have a lot more to give if played sparingly.

Scuds, He played well the year before getting here, and did get hurt last year, so the injury + bylsmas systems may have skewed things to a degree.

WHen Gonchar first played as a Penguin Horrible First Year, same with Martin, so there is also adjustments that the player needs to make.

I'm not a huge scuds fan, would trade him If I could, just saying he may be better than what he showed and how he was used last year.

 

[Gurglesons]

Have been reading a ton of posts regarding players folks like and don't like, wanted traded and who HF posters want to run out of town. In no particular order these guys have been mentioned.

• Martin
• Letang
• Fleurry
• Scuderi
• Adams

I'm just thinking, perhaps we should give these guys 20 games into the new year to see if possibly a change of system/hc was the issue and not just them.

Each of the above players has played good and bad at different times so lets relax for first 20 games and see if the change of system might help.

With Crosby and Malkin this team has the luxury of taking some time and seeing if these players respond, and if not they can make some changes.

Any system that praises defensive responsibility, short uptempo passes, and driving towards the net is going to benefit Letang. Judging by media comments, Martin seems keen on testing the market. The other three players on the list are roles that could be filled through UFA or drafting pretty easily.

 

[drpepper]

Well Adams was misused by the amount of time given, if managed better perhaps him playing sparingly gets more out of him. We judged his performance, and others through the prism of Bylsma. He could very well have a lot more to give if played sparingly.

Scuds, He played well the year before getting here, and did get hurt last year, so the injury + bylsmas systems may have skewed things to a degree.

WHen Gonchar first played as a Penguin Horrible First Year, same with Martin, so there is also adjustments that the player needs to make.

I'm not a huge scuds fan, would trade him If I could, just saying he may be better than what he showed and how he was used last year.

Scuderi was buoyed in LA by great linemates and a great system. He did poorly in Pittsburgh in easy minutes and zone starts. [Source] I don't think the Pens can afford to give him easy minutes and starts and the great linemates that he got in LA without compromising the rest of the team. I also doubt that Scuderi's skill set ever (even in his prime) fit very well with Johnston's coaching (as it has been applied in other settings).

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Honestly? **** Scuderi and Adams. If they can be moved now you move them. Defensive depth and Adams is about as old as JR, give or take a decade. Adams is just bad and incapable of doing pretty much everything mentioned by or about Johnston because he's a bad player who shouldn't be in the NHL.

Scuderi might look better once he's freed from the stretch pass and go north as fast as possible stupidity (hopefully for his sake his ankle improves), but he still won't be able to move the puck or jump into a play. Maybe his value improves, or maybe it goes down and he gets injured again. They have cheaper, better options, and there's something to be said for removing as much of the old regime's last **** ups as possible. 3.35M for a bottom pairing defenseman can't happen on this team, let alone an old one who can't skate and isn't physical.

Martin should do well because he is good and has the skill set to do well. This could be huge for Letang, real coaching and a system that should suit him. Fleury, I don't like him as this team's goalie, no system can save him from himself. The environment might help him but who the hell knows, if you can replace him with a competent goalie you do it. aka someone who won't **** the bed in the playoffs and who doesn't have the crappy history with the team.

There is an element of Bylsmagic or the player being the problem, but that doesn't mean it applies to Craig ****ing Adams being awful or Scuderi's shortcomings.

 

[IcedCapp]

I think there's an obvious difference in this list.

Martin, Letang and Fleury all have some level of skill. The reason for moving them is different from moving Scuderi and Adams.

- Letang: supremely skilled, high cap hit. Should have perhaps the 3rd-highest trade value on the team behind Sid and Geno. If you're looking to improve the balance of the team through trade, then Letang might be your best asset.

- Martin: skilled but getting older and in the last year of his deal. It's unlikely that he's retained beyond this season, if he's moved, it's to recoup value on an expiring asset.

- Fleury: same as Martin, plus adding some "do you want to bring back a guy who has been so shaky in the post season?"

_____________

Adams: a sign of everything wrong with the Bylsma era.

Scuderi: Older, unskilled. He will certainly bounce back this season, but what is Scuderi's ceiling? Certainly lower than Dumoulin, Harrington, Bortuzzo, Maatta and Despres, one of which will be denied a roster spot because of Scuderi, and at somewhere around 2.5MM more.

 

[systemsgo]

With Scuderi's play, cap hit and term, we have no choice but to give him a chance imo, if he improves his play, he might be tradeable or be somewhat useful for us. I don't want him on the team, but in one of Q&As, DK did kind of laugh at the Pens' ability to trade Scuderi anywhere, Pens fans on here think he can be traded, but all other teams fans laugh at taking him on the trade boards, so I'm not optimistic. So either we buy him out, or tough it out with him right now, until he has some value.

Rather not give Adams any chances if he can't be dumped. Just a year left on his contract, with a low cap hit. I'd prefer to give the spot to young forwards for experience, at least they'd have some upside.

 

[Fordy]

Well Adams was misused by the amount of time given, if managed better perhaps him playing sparingly gets more out of him. We judged his performance, and others through the prism of Bylsma. He could very well have a lot more to give if played sparingly.

Scuds, He played well the year before getting here, and did get hurt last year, so the injury + bylsmas systems may have skewed things to a degree.

WHen Gonchar first played as a Penguin Horrible First Year, same with Martin, so there is also adjustments that the player needs to make.

I'm not a huge scuds fan, would trade him If I could, just saying he may be better than what he showed and how he was used last year.

are you kidding? what do you think there is to "get out of him"

martin did not have a horrible first year. he had a great first year and a bad second year. gonchar is also famous for having poor first years with new teams.

i feel like you don't know anything

 

[Coach Travis]

I think Letang will excel under the new system. Fleury, I've never found to be a victim of any particular system but maybe new goalie coaching will help. I really hope this is his last chance. If his playoff performance is more of the same I'd rather just cut our losses.

 

[Shady Machine]

There is nothing for Adams to bounce back from. We have younger 4th liners that bring more to the table than him. He's beyond done.

 

[sf expat71]

The best Adams has to offer is far less than any replacement level AHLer toiling in WB/S. That is the crux of why most of us feel he needs no more chances. His "recovery" would result in a 3rd line AHLer level of play. Why limit his minutes to suit his needs, when we have better options that can legitimately play 10-12 minutes a night?
To a lesser extent, Scuds is the same boat. We have great depth on D, all of who are cheaper and potentially better players. Systems, coaches, etc, do not negate the fact that we are cap-strapped and have viable options (including waiver eligible players!) to replace said player.
So no, I don't think we need to take a wait and see approach to those two, who, quite frankly, would be additions by subtraction.
As for the others, those should be hockey trades anyway.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Can't wait to see Adams take it to the next level with a new coach! Guy was really held back in the Bylsma system. Wasn't even allowed out for the full 2 minute PK (the "Iron Kill").

 

[WayneSid9987]

Yep, i'll give Scuds 20 or more games to prove he can still play...then i'm using him as trade bait. Him or Martin.

Fleury has to prove he can get the job done with spectacular numbers this year or i'd trading his rights or letting him walk after the playoffs.

Martin seems to be heading to FA after this year so thats why i say, if this team doesn't have it goin' by the deadline, i'm trading him.

Letang is in a different category now. His caphit looks decent and if he can finally stay healthy, he'll do great under new guidance.

 

[billybudd]

Adams' primary problem is that he's too slow by far. There's no system that will turn back the clock on this guy.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Scuderi miiight be salvageable but Adams is among the worst players in the nhl. There's no fixing him.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I do like Scud's acknowledgement of his underwhelming play last year:

“For me personally, I feel like I need to have a bounce-back year,†Scuderi said. “I struggled after my injury, after coming back. So I’m a little bit more focused on myself this year, about the things I have to do. I think the other stuff just comes naturally as you’re a veteran. I know I can handle that part of it. But I’m putting a little more focus on myself this year and making sure my game gets back to where it has to be.

“I didn’t come back well. I don’t mince words and I don’t lie to myself. And (after the injury), I didn’t play as consistently well as I expect myself to.â€

“I was out of sync. My reads, my footwork, everything was just off. I didn’t feel like myself. You start to press when it doesn’t come back around, then one problem turns into two and it just snowballs on you. You try to be a positive influence on your team, and I tried to do what I could in whatever role the coaches decided to put me in, and that’s what I was going to do, try to be a positive influence for our group.â€

http://penguins.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=728493&navid=DL|PIT|home

We know Orpik could never give that kind of honest self-assessment, which is probably why he's been on a steady decline for years. Hopefully Scuderi can have a Martin-esque return to form so we can move him for some help on the wing, since that's looking less and less likely to happen before the season starts.

 

[mpp9]

Tough to not like Scuds. He could be Adams level bad, and I'd still be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I love Scuds. I still want him off this team as soon as we can get someone to take him.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I love Scuds. I still want him off this team as soon as we can get someone to take him.

Yeah. I also really don't want to grow to hate him, which I think I will if he stays.

 

[cheebatree]

Adams needs to be placed on waivers, the others have a job pending trade or younger option.

 

[Woodrow]

I love Scuds. I still want him off this team as soon as we can get someone to take him.

I agree but if we can't get rid of him at least there is a chance he will bounce back.

Adams needs to be placed on waivers, the others have a job pending trade or younger option.

I will be shocked if he is not placed on waivers once training camp starts but I don't think anyone will claim him.

 

[cygnus47]

Adams should be shot out of a cannon. Even if he played 10 times as well as he did the last 2 years, he's still the worst player on the roster. Completely unnecessary and is a negative influence 9/10 times he's on the ice. He has great heart, and I don't doubt his defensive hockey IQ nor the player he used to be, but his hands and his feet and the rest of his body are just not NHL standard anymore and haven't been for a few years.

Scuderi should be better. He was a lot better before his injury and his contract, while unnecessary, isn't so horrible that we're completely hamstrung. The ideal situation would be that he plays well while Maatta is out, gets some value back and then is moved in a package with a Dumo or some picks for a blue chip winger (prospect) around the deadline. That would require Despres being consistently great for the first few months of the year and Maatta not faltering though. It would also mean Martin staying around and likely being lost for nothing.

I have no doubt at all that Letang is going to be great again this year, especially now that he won't have an anchor tied around his ankles. The only question mark is whether he can stay healthy all year. His contract is about the right value it would seem, and he has the potential to be a Norris finalist year in-year out. With Ehrhoff on the team now, the pressure will be off him in terms of offensive production and I think that will bode very well for his mentality this season.

Martin is a fantastic player, and it would be great if we had him for another year or two at a similar price. His situation will need assessing around the new year I think. If Despres and Maatta are both playing as well as we think they can, Ehrhoff fits and re-signs in the new year and Scuderi gets back to being capable and fits in the new system, then Martin could be part of a hockey trade to get us a top 6er (Bobby Ryan on his expiring contract?). That is all business though, and not at all a slight on his game. He has been our best and most consistent defenseman for a few years now. He's going to free agency if he's not moved before then and probably looking for a 4-5 year deal which we would be stupid to give him with our stable of young D. If we're looking like cup contenders though, it would probably be worth keeping him around and letting him walk at the end of the season.

Fleury...well, he's the biggest question mark really. I have no doubt he'll be good in the regular season. If we can get good (not expecting great), and level-headed tending in the playoffs then maybe he could re-sign. Is he willing to sign for less than he's currently making though? Goaltending is a complete crapshoot each year outside of the top ~5 guys, and it hasn't proven worth spending more than 3.5-4M unless you're able to afford a Lundqvist, Rask, Rinne, Price sort of guy. There are a number of guys currently looking like UFAs next year that we could sign for under 4 that will probably give us the same thing Fleury does. Who knows, maybe Greiss plays lights out and takes 40 starts from him. Fleury probably wouldn't accept 4M but I think with his implosion risk any more would be money better spent elsewhere. Unless he plays Vezina-quality G all season and through the playoffs, he's not worth the 5.5-6M he'll ask for.


Might I say, we could be looking at an absolutely ridiculous level of production out of our D next year.

Letang - 50-60 points even without first team PP time
Ehrhoff - 50 with first team PP time
Martin - 30-45
Maatta - 20-35
Despres - 20+

That is crazy horse.

 

[The Tang]

Martin I have no worries about since he's been our best defenseman the last few years.

Letangs mental lapses are my biggest worry about him and I'm not sure any amount of coaching can fix that.

Fleury needs to build on his better post season and I still think part of his confidence problem had to do with the 12 guys in front of him being ineffective in bylsma's system.

Scuderi and Adams need to be sent as far away from this team ad possible as they are a detriment on the ice. Scuderi calling out players for poor play last year while consistently being the worst defender on the ice was ridiculous. I'd rather demote them than be on the pens roster but I don't even want them taking roster spots from developing players in wbs that actually may have a future.