Proposal: Carolina_New York Rangers

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

apparently a vocal core of NYR fans don't want to do the overpay

apparently Canes prefer to keep Hanifin

So when both teams fans don't like it, what does that tell you? It tells me it's crap.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Chiming in as another Canes fan to say I have zero interest in Bern's deal.

 

[bernmeister]

Have you ever received any sort of positive, receptive response from either team's fanbase with your completely outlandish and overly complicated proposals for Pesce or Hanifin?

If so, I've certainly never seen it. You keep posting the same crap. Other posters tell you it's crap for either team...over and over again. I'd say it's pretty safe to classify your proposal in this thread as complete and utter crap.

Yes there was some positive response to something around Stepan at reduced + for Pesce ++, but that was several months ago, too long to be current.

You are not understanding me.
I get that apparently a substantial number on both sides don't want the deal.
That's fine
I am not being adamant about going forward there.

I am asking for the courtesy of why.
Monument thought it was because there was too much overpayment by Rangers, and I designed it to be a substantial overpay. Hanifin is worth that.

But I am not clear on why Canes don't regard it as enough overpay.
Hanifin is > than Zib, but it's not night and day.
It is obvious you are stacked with D.
Logic says if you win the trade you should be interested in swapping an acceptable level of surplus for an area of need.

Do you not need any Fs?
or, as I am surmising, Hanifin is THAT untouchable.


I am not engaging in contradiction with those who don't want the deal.

I just want the simple courtesy of discussing what was meritorious or appealing and what was not.

Was any single aspect a dealbreaker?
Or is it simply that Hanifin is an unattainable target, even for reasonable overpayment?

I'd consider tweaking if I thought it would help, but I don't expect it would.
I gave it my best shot, overpaying more than Ranger fans want, but within a level I'd do for Hanifin. However, I would not go a few steps further, and throw in the sun and the moon and the stars for one blue chip.

Anyone who wants to do a constructive post mortem, thanks in advance.
Everyone else who wants to spew unnecessary hate, I leave you to yourselves.

 

[One Winged Angel]

thank you
as I stated I believed Rangers overpay, but I think Hanifin is high enough upside, and his elc allows you to control more assets going forward that you do it.

Consider it an honest difference of opinion.

Also, consider a possible follow up:
McD with substantive add for MacKinnon, also a righty,

you can do that more readily w/Hanifin to replace McD

I like Hanifin too, but he's not a 24 year old 100 point Brian Leetch.

Overpaying heavily for a player like that is not a logical move.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Keep em coming bern.

 

[Section32]

IMHO rushing to judgement re Lindberg, late start as returning from surgery and hasn't gotten consistent ice yet.
yeah the consecutive penalties on tuesday were annoying.

but as noted above, F depth will be key,
NYR are due for increased man-games lost to injury, they've been way luckier than many other teams the last ~4 years,
just on tuesday 3 guys limped off after blocks, and Miller took a hard slash to the hand. Wont be able to just shake of every injury.
And these back/neck things w Buch and Kreids should encourage keeping depth

They had some major injuries- never decimated, but they have suffered possibly more with guys playing with injuries that should have kept them out...

The year before last had 5 dmen having surgery as soon as the season ended...

Sometimes it is better to just lose a guy and have a young/different player take their place, rather than having a Girardi playing with a cracked kneecap or McD playing with a crack in his heel/ankle...

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

i would do the op

also

bernmeister continues to vie for the title of being my favorite poster

 

[bernmeister]

I like Hanifin too, but he's not a 24 year old 100 point Brian Leetch.

Overpaying heavily for a player like that is not a logical move.

right now, day 1 or 2 if you consider last yr day 1, no he isn't.
And it is an even higher reach for the hype that he'll be the next Bobby Orr.

But no question he is a primo prospect, skills project to likely be the real thing
more likely to succeed/make it big

And his value is amp'ed due to the elc and the expansion

That is why I consider him so valued, and apparently why Canes fans replying thus far prefer to keep him despite the overpayment which I thank you for independently verifying.

 

[bernmeister]

Keep em coming bern.

no reason to here, unless Canes fans want to be helpful with request to offer detail so it can be understood why, in objective theory, this prop did not succeed.

Did it fall short of the proverbial mark, and if so by how much?
Or was Hanifin never available at any price?

that's all I want to understand

 

[bernmeister]

i would do the op

also

bernmeister continues to vie for the title of being my favorite poster

thank you kind sir

feel free to comment further if you wish on why my prop was not satisfactory or better for your side.


Or, to put it in perspective from another angle, would Carolina do any reasonable deal (not asking for the sun and moon and stars) around core pieces of Hanifin and Zib and if so, what would that deal be....

I am NOT insisting such a deal exists and is agreeable to all sides.
But I would like to know more so I understand where Canes' fans' heads are at.

 

[Doriva]

thank you kind sir

feel free to comment further if you wish on why my prop was not satisfactory or better for your side.


Or, to put it in perspective from another angle, would Carolina do any reasonable deal (not asking for the sun and moon and stars) around core pieces of Hanifin and Zib and if so, what would that deal be....

I am NOT insisting such a deal exists and is agreeable to all sides.
But I would like to know more so I understand where Canes' fans' heads are at.

Maybe I misinterpreted your initial post Bern as the wording to me seemed to indicate that you weren't willing to discuss the ups and downs of the proposal rather you were implying that the deal you pitched was "THE" perfect deal for both teams.

As for my critique of the deal, I don't think Carolina does it because Pirri is far from the proven article throughout his entire career he's really just had two great spells of play amongst otherwise mediocre play. A late first for two seconds does very little for them and whilst Zibby would be a terrific addition for them I think if they're moving a potential cornerstone it has to be for something with a higher ceiling, think Mackinnon.

As for NYR I think the only reason I wouldn't do it is because we have McD entrenched as our top pairing LD and Skjei manning the second pairing for the foreseeable future. If we're moving Zibby I'd want it to be for a top RD like Faulk but I think he's even more untouchable than Hanifin.

 

[Tryamkin]

Zib + Pirri + Ranger 2017 1st
for
Hanifin + Murphy + 2017 Canes, Rangers 2nds

this is THE deal for the 2 clubs

i'm done cuh

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

no reason to here, unless Canes fans want to be helpful with request to offer detail so it can be understood why, in objective theory, this prop did not succeed.

Did it fall short of the proverbial mark, and if so by how much?
Or was Hanifin never available at any price?

that's all I want to understand

bern, I believe the raison d'être as to why posters are disinclined to engage in discourse with you regarding your proposals is threefold. Primarily, your proposals are, insufficiently pertinent to the primary aspiration of the original post, they are tangentially related at best. It is abundantly clear, that the OP was intending to make a proposal which was based of the communique that Ryan Murphy was being "shopped." You then proceeded to take the opportunity to bespeak your own agenda rather than deliberate on the proposal at hand.

Secondly, your proposals are profusely complicated with multitudinous components, which extirpates any possibility of them being rooted in reality. History has demonstrated that propositions such as yours scarcely, if ever, transpire in real life.

Lastly, your proposals habitually discount the verisimilitude of the present situation facing each team. The Rangers are a team that could quite feasibly, contend for the Stanley Cup. Effecting a transaction in which more veteran, proven players are traded for players who have the efficacy to develop into an elite player is quixotic. The NYR are exceedingly unlikely to effect such a transaction at this juncture.

With reference to your proposal from Carolina's perspective, if Carolina is going to effect a transaction in which they part ways with Hanifin, they are inclined to obtain a player of analogous age and potential, but at a different position. Hanifin has elite potential (I'm not implying that he is elite today, but he has the efficacy to attain that) so the Canes would be striving to receive a similarly aged player with "elite" potential, but at a different position. Zib and Pirri don't fit that bill for me. The NYR first round pick will most certainly be in the lowermost segment of the 1st round and the CAR 2nd round pick will ostensibly be high in the 2nd round so the value is not discernibly disparate.

I can see no rationale for either team to partake in such an accord.

 

[Shootertooter]

Zib + Pirri + Ranger 2017 1st
for
Hanifin + Murphy + 2017 Canes, Rangers 2nds

that's 40 + goals estimated offense, including a legit cornerstone piece, 6OA, on par with Hanifin, who would hurt, but is surplus
Murphy is speed and skill but soft, so is a throw in
Canes upgrade to 1st

Car can afford to move the ELC D, where at backline they are stacked and remain in good shape for the draft.
They add Fs and there is room to protect these guys

Rangers get a guy to add to LD who is exp exempt, creates flexibilkty for more deals

this is THE deal for the 2 clubs

This is an unfeasible, unnecessarily complicated deal that does not address the Rangers pressing needs and has been for the 3+ months you've pushed it in every thread. We are not moving Zib and the Canes are not moving Hanifin. Why would the Rangers be sniffing around a LHD when the organizational needs are a puck moving RHD? I understand in the need to upgrade but this is not a move that needs to be made when other more important moves need to come first.

 

[Shootertooter]

Have you ever received any sort of positive, receptive response from either team's fanbase with your completely outlandish and overly complicated proposals for Pesce or Hanifin?

If so, I've certainly never seen it. You keep posting the same crap. Other posters tell you it's crap for either team...over and over again. I'd say it's pretty safe to classify your proposal in this thread as complete and utter crap.

Pretty much spot on here Spock. Bern wants objectivity but that really means approval for his outlandish proposals.

 

[RodTheBawd]

I really don't see the angst towards bern's posts. 99% of the trade proposals on this board would never happen in reality, his are at least entertaining. He also seems to be of the opinion that the Rags aren't as close to actually winning a Cup as many others believe (I don't think his opinion is all that unreasonable) and is willing to get creative to improve the team in the medium term (not necessarily the proposals in this thread).

 

[Maukkis]

bern, I believe the raison d'être as to why posters are disinclined to engage in discourse with you regarding your proposals is threefold. Primarily, your proposals are, insufficiently pertinent to the primary aspiration of the original post, they are tangentially related at best. It is abundantly clear, that the OP was intending to make a proposal which was based of the communique that Ryan Murphy was being "shopped." You then proceeded to take the opportunity to bespeak your own agenda rather than deliberate on the proposal at hand.

Secondly, your proposals are profusely complicated with multitudinous components, which extirpates any possibility of them being rooted in reality. History has demonstrated that propositions such as yours scarcely, if ever, transpire in real life.

Lastly, your proposals habitually discount the verisimilitude of the present situation facing each team. The Rangers are a team that could quite feasibly, contend for the Stanley Cup. Effecting a transaction in which more veteran, proven players are traded for players who have the efficacy to develop into an elite player is quixotic. The NYR are exceedingly unlikely to effect such a transaction at this juncture.

With reference to your proposal from Carolina's perspective, if Carolina is going to effect a transaction in which they part ways with Hanifin, they are inclined to obtain a player of analogous age and potential, but at a different position. Hanifin has elite potential (I'm not implying that he is elite today, but he has the efficacy to attain that) so the Canes would be striving to receive a similarly aged player with "elite" potential, but at a different position. Zib and Pirri don't fit that bill for me. The NYR first round pick will most certainly be in the lowermost segment of the 1st round and the CAR 2nd round pick will ostensibly be high in the 2nd round so the value is not discernibly disparate.

I can see no rationale for either team to partake in such an accord.

Words.

The OP looks reasonable, although I think the pick isn't needed. I also knew which proposal would be posted in this thread by Bern, and it is indeed bad.

 

[One Winged Angel]

right now, day 1 or 2 if you consider last yr day 1, no he isn't.
And it is an even higher reach for the hype that he'll be the next Bobby Orr.

But no question he is a primo prospect, skills project to likely be the real thing
more likely to succeed/make it big

And his value is amp'ed due to the elc and the expansion

That is why I consider him so valued, and apparently why Canes fans replying thus far prefer to keep him despite the overpayment which I thank you for independently verifying.

Your deals are insane and the canes aren't dealing Hanifin.

Stop.

 

[Chan790]

no reason to here, unless Canes fans want to be helpful with request to offer detail so it can be understood why, in objective theory, this prop did not succeed.

Did it fall short of the proverbial mark, and if so by how much?
Or was Hanifin never available at any price?

that's all I want to understand

For me, as a Canes fan (and a Boston College Eagles Hockey fan), and this is different for most Canes fans I'd assume, I was super high on him from the start of his freshman year of college, I thought he could lead the Eagles to multiple Beanpots and maybe an NCAA championship if he spent all four years at BC. It never crossed my mind he could end up in Carolina...I expected him and Eichel to compete for #2OA all year and I didn't think we were that bad of a team. Getting Hanifin was like winning the lottery...I see a great defenseman with the potential to be generational if he develops right.

There's simply no trade I'd make for Hanifin that did not include a 1OA-quality young 1C coming back. I'd add to him to get Eichel, McDavid or Matthews, but that's it. Nothing else I'd consider. (I can't see those assets being made available, but I can't see us moving Hanifin, so...)

Not anything the Rangers have, not Puljujarvi or Laine, not Marner, and not Strome. I think, down the road, both Toronto and Arizona will be kicking themselves for passing on Hanifin. It's not that I think there's anything wrong with Marner or Strome...I just think Hanifin was far-and-away one of the 3 best players in that draft, in a tier of his own, and closer to Eichel than Marner/Strome.

You can't have him unless you have a deal up your sleeve to get that elite young possibly-generational 1C we should be demanding in any trade.

 

[bernmeister]

Maybe I misinterpreted your initial post Bern as the wording to me seemed to indicate that you weren't willing to discuss the ups and downs of the proposal rather you were implying that the deal you pitched was "THE" perfect deal for both teams.

As for my critique of the deal, I don't think Carolina does it because Pirri is far from the proven article throughout his entire career he's really just had two great spells of play amongst otherwise mediocre play. A late first for two seconds does very little for them and whilst Zibby would be a terrific addition for them I think if they're moving a potential cornerstone it has to be for something with a higher ceiling, think Mackinnon.

As for NYR I think the only reason I wouldn't do it is because we have McD entrenched as our top pairing LD and Skjei manning the second pairing for the foreseeable future. If we're moving Zibby I'd want it to be for a top RD like Faulk but I think he's even more untouchable than Hanifin.

thank you THIS was constructive
Obviously, Zib was a substantial add, but I totally see the point as to higher ceiling/MacK.
That is the dominant consideration for Canes
obv. Pirri is low cost and not a top package but he could do 20g and for Murphy that's not unreasonable. However I could see they want to go in another direction
the picks are moot.

As to us,I like our chances but we should not jump the gun, we still need to build. Win now usually does not work.
Gorton is brilliant at building, let him do so with more, not less tools.

Yes, I'm aware of McD.
The thought is we eventually roll w/Hanifin-Skjei-Graves and McD is flipped for a primo return; possibly RD upgrade.

thanks for the feedback

 

[bernmeister]

...

bern, I believe the raison d'être as to why posters are disinclined to engage in discourse with you regarding your proposals is threefold.

Primarily, your proposals are, insufficiently pertinent to the primary aspiration of the original post, they are tangentially related at best. It is abundantly clear, that the OP was intending to make a proposal which was based of the communique that Ryan Murphy was being "shopped." You then proceeded to take the opportunity to bespeak your own agenda rather than deliberate on the proposal at hand.

I won't apologize for developing something consistent to both the general and specific OP.

Secondly, your proposals are profusely complicated with multitudinous components, which extirpates any possibility of them being rooted in reality. History has demonstrated that propositions such as yours scarcely, if ever, transpire in real life.

a fair point.
on the other hand most deals are not as simple as they seem

Lastly, your proposals habitually discount the verisimilitude of the present situation facing each team. The Rangers are a team that could quite feasibly, contend for the Stanley Cup. Effecting a transaction in which more veteran, proven players are traded for players who have the efficacy to develop into an elite player is quixotic. The NYR are exceedingly unlikely to effect such a transaction at this juncture.

I'd proffer to differ, fellow wordsmith
several in the fanbase of not yet learned that win now is often a fool's errand for fool's gold. However, with Gorton running things, a foolish splurge is less likely.

With reference to your proposal from Carolina's perspective, if Carolina is going to effect a transaction in which they part ways with Hanifin, they are inclined to obtain a player of analogous age and potential, but at a different position. Hanifin has elite potential (I'm not implying that he is elite today, but he has the efficacy to attain that) so the Canes would be striving to receive a similarly aged player with "elite" potential, but at a different position. Zib and Pirri don't fit that bill for me.

Okay, that's the clarification that was missing.
MAYBE Hanifin can be had, but Zib doesn't cut the mustard

I don't think you are overrating Hanifin, I think you are underrating Zib.
that is moot, however

The NYR first round pick will most certainly be in the lowermost segment of the 1st round and the CAR 2nd round pick will ostensibly be high in the 2nd round so the value is not discernibly disparate.

It was a win for you in the equation, but fine, we agree it is secondary and moot given the above.

I can see no rationale for either team to partake in such an accord.

thanks

 

[bernmeister]

For me, as a Canes fan (and a Boston College Eagles Hockey fan), and this is different for most Canes fans I'd assume, I was super high on him from the start of his freshman year of college, I thought he could lead the Eagles to multiple Beanpots and maybe an NCAA championship if he spent all four years at BC. It never crossed my mind he could end up in Carolina...I expected him and Eichel to compete for #2OA all year and I didn't think we were that bad of a team. Getting Hanifin was like winning the lottery...I see a great defenseman with the potential to be generational if he develops right.

There's simply no trade I'd make for Hanifin that did not include a 1OA-quality young 1C coming back. I'd add to him to get Eichel, McDavid or Matthews, but that's it. Nothing else I'd consider. (I can't see those assets being made available, but I can't see us moving Hanifin, so...)

Not anything the Rangers have, not Puljujarvi or Laine, not Marner, and not Strome. I think, down the road, both Toronto and Arizona will be kicking themselves for passing on Hanifin. It's not that I think there's anything wrong with Marner or Strome...I just think Hanifin was far-and-away one of the 3 best players in that draft, in a tier of his own, and closer to Eichel than Marner/Strome.

You can't have him unless you have a deal up your sleeve to get that elite young possibly-generational 1C we should be demanding in any trade.

thanks, that's the critical element of this equation

 

[bernmeister]

Your deals are insane and the canes aren't dealing Hanifin.

Stop.

Now that my questions have been answered, sure.

 

[bernmeister]

thanks to everyone else who gave feedback