Carlson vs Doughty, contracts included

[895]

Who would you rather have on your team?

Carlson is better offensively while Doughty is much better defensively.

But Doughty makes 11m to Carlson's 8m.

For me, I'll take Doughty and find that 3m elsewhere.

Click to read more...

 

[trick9]

John Carlson, no doubt.

Top-5 in Norris -voting in each of the last two seasons. Arguably right on par with Doughty '17-'18 and much better this past season. Even if some have Doughty as the better player by reputation still, they are both on the absolutely elite on their position and the margin is not nearly that 3 million difference they have in salary.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

I mean this isn't much of a question. Doughty is a much higher impact player than Carlson is and accounts for only 3.68% more of the cap ceiling.

 

[Regal]

John Carlson, no doubt.

Top-5 in Norris -voting in each of the last two seasons. Arguably right on par with Doughty '17-'18 and much better this past season. Even if some have Doughty as the better player by reputation still, they are both on the absolutely elite on their position and the margin is not nearly that 3 million difference they have in salary.

Carlson is a cog in a well-oiled Caps PP that could be replaced without a significant drop. His voting placements are high because of his point totals, but he's not the one driving his point totals. He's a good defenseman, but he's a clear tier below Doughtt

 

[Sam Spade]

I vote Doughty but it was a harder choice than it should have been. 3 mil is a fortune in today's NHL.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Carlson is a cog in a well-oiled Caps PP that could be replaced without a significant drop. His voting placements are high because of his point totals, but he's not the one driving his point totals. He's a good defenseman, but he's a clear tier below Doughtt

Yup.

3 million is less than 4% of the salary cap. That’s well worth the difference between a franchise defenseman and a very good #1D.

 

[trick9]

Carlson is a cog in a well-oiled Caps PP that could be replaced without a significant drop. His voting placements are high because of his point totals, but he's not the one driving his point totals. He's a good defenseman, but he's a clear tier below Doughtt

Carlson was 2nd in the NHL in ES points among all D's, only behind PK Subban when he won the Norris -trophy. That was years ago when he had a very limited PP time. I don't buy it.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Carlson was 2nd in the NHL in ES points among all D's, only behind PK Subban when he won the Norris -trophy. That was years ago when he had a very limited PP time. I don't buy it.

Um, what season was this?

 

[trick9]

Um, what season was this?

Mistaken on the year actually. It was 2014-'15. It wasn't Subban's Norris -winning season. My bad.

 

[Mighty Makar]

Doughty

 

[filinski77]

Carlson is a cog in a well-oiled Caps PP that could be replaced without a significant drop. His voting placements are high because of his point totals, but he's not the one driving his point totals. He's a good defenseman, but he's a clear tier below Doughtt

Carlson was 8th last year in Even strength points (d-men), Doughty was 72nd.

Carlson was 2nd in PP points last year, Doughty was 7th.

Based on that, the difference between the 2 of them is Carlson's ability to generate even strength scoring.

As far as him being easily replaceable, I don't buy that. Carlson's last 2 seasons of 33 and 32 PP points, are the 2 highest totals by a D-man for the Capitals since 2010/2011, 3rd highest was 22. The only 2 seasons to top Carlson since 05/06 were Mike Greens 2 best seasons, where he was arguably the best offensive D in the league, that whole time the Caps have had the best power play in the league.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Carlson was 8th last year in Even strength points (d-men), Doughty was 72nd.

Carlson was 2nd in PP points last year, Doughty was 7th.

Based on that, the difference between the 2 of them is Carlson's ability to generate even strength scoring.

As far as him being easily replaceable, I don't buy that. Carlson's last 2 seasons of 33 and 32 PP points, are the 2 highest totals by a D-man for the Capitals since 2010/2011, 3rd highest was 22. The only 2 seasons to top Carlson since 05/06 were Mike Greens 2 best seasons, where he was arguably the best offensive D in the league, that whole time the Caps have had the best power play in the league.

Are we really going to continually do this dishonest bullshit where we focus only on Doughty's last season when there's literally a decade of better evidence?

Edit: just so you don't think I'm ignoring your point altogether, the previous year, Carlson was ELEVENTH in even-strength points (36) while Doughty was 4th (39). Meanwhile, Carlson was 2nd in PPP (32), Drew was 18th (20). Still reaching the same conclusion? Go back to the year before that and Carlson doesn't even appear on the first page. I think he's an offensive weapon, but so are the Caps, and people are greatly overstating Carlson's offense and underrating Doughty's, seems the inaccurate meme about Doughty being bad offensively has really sunk in on the East Coast.

If so, I guess we can also point out that Drew Doughty--for all the mocking of his offense--has outscored Carlson damn near every season in the league until the last 2 years while being far superior defensively. Without accounting for the Caps being a top rung offense with Ovechkin for Carlson's entire career while the Kings have been in the basement that whole time.

Carlson's a great #1 D who has been top-shelf the last couple of years and deserves the accolades he's gotten. Doughty is top-3 at his position every year but last year. Well worth the difference in $, and the gap in O is much smaller than the gap on D.

 

[txpd]

Carlson is a cog in a well-oiled Caps PP that could be replaced without a significant drop

This is a load of shit. Any available top 4 d can replace him. The Caps had Mike Green lose his touch. Carlson failed in his first attempt on that pp. Matt Niskanen failed. What Carlson does cant be done by just anyone.

He has been voted in the top 5 the past two seasons both for the Norris and for the post season all star teams. I am guessing you think that WILDLY overrates him.

Edit: I assume that you think Backstrom could also be easily replaced

 

[filinski77]

Are we really going to continually do this dishonest bull**** where we focus only on Doughty's last season when there's literally a decade of better evidence?

Edit: just so you don't think I'm ignoring your point altogether, the previous year, Carlson was ELEVENTH in even-strength points (36) while Doughty was 4th (39). Meanwhile, Carlson was 2nd in PPP (32), Drew was 18th (20). Still reaching the same conclusion? Go back to the year before that and Carlson doesn't even appear on the first page. I think he's an offensive weapon, but so are the Caps, and people are greatly overstating Carlson's offense and underrating Doughty's, seems the inaccurate meme about Doughty being bad offensively has really sunk in on the East Coast.

If so, I guess we can also point out that Drew Doughty--for all the mocking of his offense--has outscored Carlson damn near every season in the league until the last 2 years while being far superior defensively. Without accounting for the Caps being a top rung offense with Ovechkin for Carlson's entire career while the Kings have been in the basement that whole time.

Carlson's a great #1 D who has been top-shelf the last couple of years and deserves the accolades he's gotten. Doughty is top-3 at his position every year but last year. Well worth the difference in $, and the gap in O is much smaller than the gap on D.

For what it's worth, I still voted Doughty, even with the contract. I was mostly defending people that assume Carlson is just a PP weapon, when in fact, he's great at even strength too.

 

[Regal]

This is a load of ****. Any available top 4 d can replace him. The Caps had Mike Green lose his touch. Carlson failed in his first attempt on that pp. Matt Niskanen failed. What Carlson does cant be done by just anyone.

He has been voted in the top 5 the past two seasons both for the Norris and for the post season all star teams. I am guessing you think that WILDLY overrates him.

Edit: I assume that you think Backstrom could also be easily replaced

Those defensemen failed, but the PP continued to be good, meaning Carlson himself isn't imperative to its success. Carlson is good on the PP no doubt, but there's also no doubt that he benefits from it in terms of production more than he contributes. By replaceable, I mean by similarly talented defensemen. Carlson isn't a Burns or Karlsson that can run an offense by himself despite his production being elite the last two years. There's probably 10-20 players who could see 15-20 point boosts in a similar position. In a typical situation, he's a 50+ point guy.

 

[Regal]

For what it's worth, I still voted Doughty, even with the contract. I was mostly defending people that assume Carlson is just a PP weapon, when in fact, he's great at even strength too.

I wasn't trying to suggest Carlson is only a PP weapon, just that his PP totals are what has pushed him to top 5 Norris votes. He's always been a good producer at both ES and on the PP, but put in similar roles, the offensive difference is likely fairly minimal

 

[txpd]

Those defensemen failed, but the PP continued to be good, meaning Carlson himself isn't imperative to its success. Carlson is good on the PP no doubt, but there's also no doubt that he benefits from it in terms of production more than he contributes. By replaceable, I mean by similarly talented defensemen. Carlson isn't a Burns or Karlsson that can run an offense by himself despite his production being elite the last two years. There's probably 10-20 players who could see 15-20 point boosts in a similar position. In a typical situation, he's a 50+ point guy.

I am sure you are an educated hockey fan. You know that EVERYONE knows that Ovechkin is looking to shoot from the lw circle a one time. Right? People wonder why if the entire building know that is the plan, how is it that it keeps happening.
Well...Its because an easily replaceable guy is passing him the puck.

 

[Regal]

I am sure you are an educated hockey fan. You know that EVERYONE knows that Ovechkin is looking to shoot from the lw circle a one time. Right? People wonder why if the entire building know that is the plan, how is it that it keeps happening.
Well...Its because an easily replaceable guy is passing him the puck.

And once again, an HF poster jumps to extremes to misrepresent an argument. I wonder why Ovechkin continued to score all those goals on the PP in years that the defenseman in that position "failed"? Anyway, it's clear by your response you're not worth adressing further. Have a good one

 

[KevinRedkey]

Doughty has 1 playoff point in his last 5 seasons. His Norris win was 4yrs ago, and he was awful last year. He gets a 'pass' because his overall body or work is great, and he won cups a while ago... but I'm not sure he's the elite franchise Dman he once was. NO, that is not me saying he sucks... it's me pointing out he may not be at that 'franchise' level anymore. Franchise guys put their teams on their back, and win more than LA has in the playoffs in the past 5 years. See Erik Karlsson when Ottawa went to the Finals; McDavid when they went to round 2; MacKinnon this past year; Crosby all the time; and even Doughty back in 2010-2016.

With that said, I'm not sure he's worth 3.000 more than Carlson per season. I think Doughty has the reputation, but if you combine the last two seasons, Carlson has been the better Dman IMO.

It also depends on what you d0 with that 3.000 in cap space...
Doughty + J.Johnson = 14.250
Carlson + Ellis = 14.250
Obviously Carlson and Ellis is a lot better. But the same can be done in reverse to make Doughty's pair look better. For that reason, it's kind of impossible to argue either way.

I think I lean towards Carlson and the cap space, but that's because I believe I could put together a better team by taking the bigger bargain.

 

[axman15]

I am sure you are an educated hockey fan. You know that EVERYONE knows that Ovechkin is looking to shoot from the lw circle a one time. Right? People wonder why if the entire building know that is the plan, how is it that it keeps happening.
Well...Its because an easily replaceable guy is passing him the puck.

I'm pretty sure the fact that the puck keeps going in despite the entire building knowing the plan has a lot more to do with the shot than the pass..

 

[txpd]

I'm pretty sure the fact that the puck keeps going in despite the entire building knowing the plan has a lot more to do with the shot than the pass..

That's brilliant. It might occur to you if you thought about it that most penalty kills try to eliminate the shot by first trying to keep the puck from getting to him. They second try and stop the shot by putting players in his shooting lane. Having a chance to shoot has everything to do with the pass.

 

[elmaco]

Doughty

 

[spiny norman]

Lopsided result.