Book Feature Capitals, Aristocrats, and Cougars: Victoria's Hockey Professionals, 1911-1926 (by Alan L. MacLeod)

[sr edler]

Pete Muldoon is an interesting character for sure. First I think he was a trainer with the 1912 New Westminster Royals, then trainer with the 1913–14 Vancouver Millionaires, then first coaching stint with the 1914–15 Portland Rosebuds, then next season coaching with Seattle.

It feels he was everywhere in the PCHA.

He was also a boxer, and a fancy skater on stilts.

For more casual NHL fans he's mostly known as the first coach of the Chicago Black Hawks, which had moved there from Portland.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Is Frederickson a slam dunk as the greatest Victoria player of all time?

6 seasons in Victoria including a cup win in 1925

His biggest competition I'd assume is Dunderdale who spent a similar amount of time in Victoria and made the final 1914 only to lose to Toronto.

Dark horse would be Lester Patrick, but he was definitely not at this best in the PCHA.

I'd also be curious on your thoughts why Victoria cratered from the 1915 season forward and was never able to be the PCHA champion again. Obviously the talent of Seattle and Vancouver on paper was superior which is reflected by the regular season results from then forward.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm curious about the deeper information you were able to infer about PCHA forwards. Too often all we have to judge them by is their offensive dominance, and some snippets here and there about their defense. Are there any forwards you got the impression were consistently better or more valuable than their offensive numbers would indicate? What about the opposite?

Also, the PCHA all-star teams have been a valuable resource over the years, but we are aware they were named by just one person - luckily, it was probably the most-qualified person possible, Mickey Ion, but still it makes it difficult to treat them as a 100% definitive account of who the best defensemen were over the years. Are there any that you feel may have been overrated or underrated compared to their record in all-star teams?

 

[A L MacLeod]

Is Frederickson a slam dunk as the greatest Victoria player of all time?

6 seasons in Victoria including a cup win in 1925

His biggest competition I'd assume is Dunderdale who spent a similar amount of time in Victoria and made the final 1914 only to lose to Toronto.

Dark horse would be Lester Patrick, but he was definitely not at this best in the PCHA.

I'd also be curious on your thoughts why Victoria cratered from the 1915 season forward and was never able to be the PCHA champion again. Obviously the talent of Seattle and Vancouver on paper was superior which is reflected by the regular season results from then forward.

He is in my mind, yes. An appendix in the book lists the career stats in Victoria for every player who played with the team. The three names at the head of the list are Fredrickson, Dunderdale and Patrick, in that order. As it happens, that is my ranking of the best of them, as Victoria players. Fredrickson's Victoria points total is marginally better than Dunderdale's--194-191--but his number of games played is significantly fewer than Dunderdale's--163, to Dunderdale's 181. Patrick did play the rover position but he was principally a defenceman so his points total, 109 in 160 games, was much lower. If the raves delivered by Victoria's newspapers at the time is any measure, Fredrickson outshone the others.

Patrick was already twenty-eight when he and brother Frank formed the PCHA. I would argue that his best years as a player came before that time, in Brandon, Montreal and Renfrew. But who was the first of them inducted in the HHoF? Well, that would be Patrick, member of the Hall's second draft in 1947. Fredrickson's turn didn't come until eleven years later, in 1958, and Dunderdale had been under a Winnipeg gravestone fourteen years by the time he was anointed in 1974. On that basis some would argue that Lester himself was Victoria's best.

As to why the Victoria club was so long in the wilderness, I think you've alluded to the answer: there was typically better talent in Vancouver and Seattle than Lester could bring to Victoria. Frank was more successful at luring talent. The 1925 Stanley Cup victory came about because the Seattle club had folded and Lester managed to persuade three future hall-of-famers--Frank Foyston, Jack Walker and Hap Holmes--to come to Victoria. What was an ill wind for Seattle hockey fans was a windfall for Victoria's.

 

[kaiser matias]

Is there anyone on Victoria you think is overlooked, that should be given more recognition?

 

[ResilientBeast]

As to why the Victoria club was so long in the wilderness, I think you've alluded to the answer: there was typically better talent in Vancouver and Seattle than Lester could bring to Victoria. Frank was more successful at luring talent. The 1925 Stanley Cup victory came about because the Seattle club had folded and Lester managed to persuade three future hall-of-famers--Frank Foyston, Jack Walker and Hap Holmes--to come to Victoria. What was an ill wind for Seattle hockey fans was a windfall for Victoria's.

This actually brings up another question I had.

So PCHA recruiting seems to be all over the map in terms of who was actually conducting it. Was it the Muldoon/Lester/Frank poaching eastern players directly?

It always felt based on what I've been reading it was Frank as the head of the league kind of orchestrating talent infusions.

And a second question (tough one) who was the best NHA/NHL player a Victoria team was close to poaching?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Is there anyone on Victoria you think is overlooked, that should be given more recognition?

I'm interested to see his response, but my own personally is almost certainly Bobby Genge during my PCHA player position research his play is routinely given glowing praise in Victoria and opposing team papers.

 

[A L MacLeod]

I'm curious about the deeper information you were able to infer about PCHA forwards. Too often all we have to judge them by is their offensive dominance, and some snippets here and there about their defense. Are there any forwards you got the impression were consistently better or more valuable than their offensive numbers would indicate? What about the opposite?

Also, the PCHA all-star teams have been a valuable resource over the years, but we are aware they were named by just one person - luckily, it was probably the most-qualified person possible, Mickey Ion, but still it makes it difficult to treat them as a 100% definitive account of who the best defensemen were over the years. Are there any that you feel may have been overrated or underrated compared to their record in all-star teams?

I'm curious about the deeper information you were able to infer about PCHA forwards. Too often all we have to judge them by is their offensive dominance, and some snippets here and there about their defense. Are there any forwards you got the impression were consistently better or more valuable than their offensive numbers would indicate? What about the opposite?

Also, the PCHA all-star teams have been a valuable resource over the years, but we are aware they were named by just one person - luckily, it was probably the most-qualified person possible, Mickey Ion, but still it makes it difficult to treat them as a 100% definitive account of who the best defensemen were over the years. Are there any that you feel may have been overrated or underrated compared to their record in all-star teams?

One name that leaps to mind is the fourth player in the Victoria stats appendix, the right-winger, Eddie Oatman. Oatman played in eleven PCHA seasons, including five in Victoria. In the Victoria years, 1918-23, he was routinely singled out for praise by the hockey beat writers. The scribes had a great advantage over me: they actually saw the games. All I can do is rely on their accounts. Oatman had a remarkable career. Starting in 1909-10 with the Waterloo Colts of the OPHL, Oatman was still playing hockey in 1938-39, with the Duluth Zephyrs of the IASHL--International American Senior Hockey League. By which time he was in his 50th year. In 1916-17 he took a break from the PCHA to play for what must surely be one of the most unusual major pro teams of all time--the 1916-17 228th Battalion "Northern Fusiliers" of the NHA. That team boasted several luminaries including Art Duncan and the McNamara brothers, one of whom was the hall-of-famer, George McNamara. That team's leading scorer was Oatman, with 22 points in a dozen games. Oatman is not a member of HHoF but I argue in the book that he should be.

No one played more games for the Victoria club than defenceman Clem Loughlin. Over an eight-year span from 1918 through the '25-26 season, Loughlin played in 203 games for Victoria. He too was routinely awarded kudos by the beat writers. He too had a long career in hockey--as a player, from 1910-11 through '31-32, and as coach in the IHL and NHL. He was the Chicago Blackhawks' bench boss for three seasons, 1934-37.

 

[A L MacLeod]

Is there anyone on Victoria you think is overlooked, that should be given more recognition?

See my answer to seventieslord.

 

[A L MacLeod]

This actually brings up another question I had.

So PCHA recruiting seems to be all over the map in terms of who was actually conducting it. Was it the Muldoon/Lester/Frank poaching eastern players directly?

It always felt based on what I've been reading it was Frank as the head of the league kind of orchestrating talent infusions.

And a second question (tough one) who was the best NHA/NHL player a Victoria team was close to poaching?

The evidence may be anecdotal and not well documented, but I share the impression that it was the younger brother, Frank, who was the PCHA mastermind--on multiple fronts. Both brothers played for the 1910-11 Renfrew club of the NHA. Among the players they persuaded to forsake Renfrew for the west coast were Don Smith, Bobby Rowe, Bert Lindsay--Ted's dad--and the great Cyclone Taylor. Who can say whether it was Frank or Lester who was the better persuader but it is perhaps telling that Taylor wound up in Vancouver, not Victoria. From all that I have read it seems that Frank was the bold innovator and Lester the sometimes more reluctant partner. When the time came to dispose of the western league's assets in 1926, it was Frank who was in charge. It is perhaps apt that Lester is enshrined in HHof as player, and Frank as builder.

As to the tough question, who was the greatest near-miss when it came to raiding the NHA/NHL's best, I have no answer. There are a few who come to mind who were lured west only briefly and went back back east to build their fame and fortune: Newsy Lalonde, Didier Pitre, Frank Nighbor, the first two for a single season, Nighbor for two. It is telling that all three came to play not for Lester in Victoria, but Frank in Vancouver.

 

[A L MacLeod]

I'm interested to see his response, but my own personally is almost certainly Bobby Genge during my PCHA player position research his play is routinely given glowing praise in Victoria and opposing team papers.

Bobby Genge spent seven years in Victoria and he took his turn in the spotlight from time to time, though I don't have the sense that he attracted as much glowing praise as did the other players I have cited. In one way there is no doubt that Genge stood above just about everybody. At a time when players were typically 5'6" or 5'7" and weighed maybe 160 pounds, Genge was a colossus. According to the vital stats we find at SIHR, he stood 6'4" and weighed 200 lbs. The 1914 Stanley Cup final pitted the Victoria team--then dubbed the Aristocrats--against the Toronto club of the NHA. It was a fiercely contested war. Toronto won the the three-game series by a combined 13-8 score. In the final game of the series--every game was played in Toronto--a donnybrook erupted, an event the Victoria Colonist called vicious. The principals in the main bout were Genge and the future hall-of-famer, Allan "Scotty" Davidson. It seemed not to matter that they were first cousins. It turned out to be Davidson's last game ever: he enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force and was killed in action on the Western Front in 1915. Genge never enlisted and managed to avoid being conscripted.

 

[Theokritos]

@A L MacLeod:

The Patricks brought several rule changes to hockey and some of them were pioneered in the PCHA. Were the ideas behind those discussed in the contemporary papers or rather mentioned in passing?

 

[A L MacLeod]

@A L MacLeod:

The Patricks brought several rule changes to hockey and some of them were pioneered in the PCHA. Were the ideas behind those discussed in the contemporary papers or rather mentioned in passing?

More the latter.

In neighbouring Oak Bay, across the street from the site of the old Patrick Arena, there is a monument listing the Patricks' major hockey innovations. Nine are listed. In the newspapers of the time, several of the innovations hardly rated a mention-in-passing, let alone a full-fledged discussion. Apropos one innovation--elimination of the rover position--it was the NHA, not the Patricks that moved first. In several Stanley Cup finals the parties agreed to resolve the rule disparity problems by playing half the time under the NHA's rules, the other half under the PCHA's.

To see an image of the monument follow this link:

 

[seventieslord]

Bobby Genge spent seven years in Victoria and he took his turn in the spotlight from time to time, though I don't have the sense that he attracted as much glowing praise as did the other players I have cited. In one way there is no doubt that Genge stood above just about everybody. At a time when players were typically 5'6" or 5'7" and weighed maybe 160 pounds, Genge was a colossus. According to the vital stats we find at SIHR, he stood 6'4" and weighed 200 lbs. The 1914 Stanley Cup final pitted the Victoria team--then dubbed the Aristocrats--against the Toronto club of the NHA. It was a fiercely contested war. Toronto won the the three-game series by a combined 13-8 score. In the final game of the series--every game was played in Toronto--a donnybrook erupted, an event the Victoria Colonist called vicious. The principals in the main bout were Genge and the future hall-of-famer, Allan "Scotty" Davidson. It seemed not to matter that they were first cousins. It turned out to be Davidson's last game ever: he enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force and was killed in action on the Western Front in 1915. Genge never enlisted and managed to avoid being conscripted.

Early on in the book, there's a photo of the Victoria lineup, and Genge doesn't look any taller than Lester Patrick, in fact, I'd say he was shorter. They're both on skates in this photo.

I think it's very possible Genge's size was either estimated or exaggerated. Having seen that photo, what would you say to that?

I'm in the middle of the book right now. Thanks so much for covering a topic that needed more exposure.

 

[sr edler]

Early on in the book, there's a photo of the Victoria lineup, and Genge doesn't look any taller than Lester Patrick, in fact, I'd say he was shorter. They're both on skates in this photo.

I think it's very possible Genge's size was either estimated or exaggerated. Having seen that photo, what would you say to that?

I'm in the middle of the book right now. Thanks so much for covering a topic that needed more exposure.

I think I noticed that once too actually, that he didn't look that big on the team photo compared to his teammates. But heights (and weights) are always a bit iffy like that, even nowadays sometimes with modern players. People claim Martin St. Louis isn't as tall as he claims himself, et cetera.

And yeah, if you read from newspaper reports, for sure stuff can absolutely be exaggerated.

Look at this pic below for instance. Lester Patrick on most sources says he's 6'1", Hod Stuart on most sources says he's 6 blank, but here below he looks taller than Patrick, right? Unless someone's not in his skates?

 

[seventieslord]

I think I noticed that once too actually, that he didn't look that big on the team photo compared to his teammates. But heights (and weights) are always a bit iffy like that, even nowadays sometimes with modern players. People claim Martin St. Louis isn't as tall as he claims himself, et cetera.

And yeah, if you read from newspaper reports, for sure stuff can absolutely be exaggerated.

Look at this pic below for instance. Lester Patrick on most sources says he's 6'1", Hod Stuart on most sources says he's 6 blank, but here below he looks taller than Patrick, right? Unless someone's not in his skates?

Yeah, with this one it's tough because we don't know for sure what everyone is standing on. But in the photo in the book, you can see their skates on the ground.

I know all we have to go by is what was reported/recorded, but when photographic evidence seems to contradict that, it's worth discussing.

 

[sr edler]

Yeah, with this one it's tough because we don't know for sure what everyone is standing on. But in the photo in the book, you can see their skates on the ground.

I know all we have to go by is what was reported/recorded, but when photographic evidence seems to contradict that, it's worth discussing.

It's Lester Patrick's voluminous hairstyle that makes him look like giant. (just kidding)

But funnily enough another big-sized player of that era, Slim Halderson, had a very similar type of hairstyle.

But yeah, I agree with the Wanderers photo, especially regarding Stuart, but then you have Rod Kennedy and Moose Johnson there too, in closer proximity to Patrick.

I take this is the photo you're talking about?

 

[sr edler]

Here below is a better one on Hod Stuart, where he just towers over (alleged) 5'11" Moose Johnson, and he's taller than Kennedy too. You can't see his feet, but you can see through the chairs. And it's highly unlikely they're standing on anything.

Most sources holds Hod Stuart at 6'0" but his younger brother Bruce at 6'2". I find this highly dubious, and suspect it's the other way around (Hod 6'2", Bruce 6'0"). Look at Bruce down below with the 1911 Ottawa HC, he doesn't tower over anyone like his brother does. Alex Currie on the left is apparently 6'0" and they appear same-ish height. In the case with Currie and Bruce, you can see their feet on the floor.

 

[seventieslord]

It's Lester Patrick's voluminous hairstyle that makes him look like giant. (just kidding)

But funnily enough another big-sized player of that era, Slim Halderson, had a very similar type of hairstyle.

But yeah, I agree with the Wanderers photo, especially regarding Stuart, but then you have Rod Kennedy and Moose Johnson there too, in closer proximity to Patrick.

I take this is the photo you're talking about?

Yes, that photo. It sure seems that Patrick has a good couple of inches on Genge (not counting his hair!). And being a more high profile player, I would trust his height to be more accurately recorded.

 

[sr edler]

Yes, that photo. It sure seems that Patrick has a good couple of inches on Genge (not counting his hair!). And being a more high profile player, I would trust his height to be more accurately recorded.

I took a closer look now at the second Wanderers photo up thread, and you can clearly see parts of Hod Stuart's skate firmly on the floor, so he's definitely not standing on anything there, and he's towering over Moose Johnson who wasn't small, and he's taller than Kennedy too. And in the Ottawa photo from 1911, you can compare Alex Currie (6'0", far left) with Bruce Stuart and they're the same height. Disregard Jack Darragh because he's clearly sitting on something.

But this makes it fairly obvious to me that somehow Hod's and Bruce's heights has been mixed up with each other somewhere along the line. This isn't really too surprising to me as for the longest time the Hockey Hall of Fame website had a picture of Bruce (in Ottawa gear) representing Hod. And if they can mix up such a thing, clearly heights are really no different thing.

Hod is also listed as being heavier than Bruce, and they look equally stocky.

Regarding the Victoria photo, yeah Patrick definitely looks taller than Genge there, but I wouldn't say it's by "a good couple of inches" unless we count his fabulous hair. It's probably 1 or 1 and a half inches or something, or at most 2. So if Patrick is 6 – 6'1" then Genge should be about 5'10" – 6.

4 inches seems like a pretty steep miscalculation, but I can't really say with certainty from where this would have come from.

I will say though that I find the quote on Genge's Wikipedia page, which is sourced from Stephen Harper's book, about him being a "dominating two-way player", probably a bit dubious or exaggerated too. So perhaps his alleged height came in a packaged sell job?

"Dominating" is a pretty strong word, it essentially means you're a tier above your opponents. And regarding "two-way", he didn't really put up that many points, at least. He probably was a "player" though.

Genge was in all honesty probably a pretty good player, and the Fort William–Port Arthur area and its league brought out a number of high quality players, especially Jack Walker, but I find it very hard to believe he was anything more than say a Pud Glass-level player, at best. Which isn't bad in any sense, but hardly "dominating".

One has also to take into consideration that the Patricks had to sell their new league to the broader masses. That obviously doesn't mean all PCHA players were overrated or manufactured frauds (especially not since PCHA teams won multiple Stanley Cups), and I am myself a fan and/or intrigued by many of its players, but sometimes you have to take a step back too and don't buy every single ice cream flavor from the vendor. This goes for all leagues, by the way, modern and ancient.

 

[seventieslord]

I took a closer look now at the second Wanderers photo up thread, and you can clearly see parts of Hod Stuart's skate firmly on the floor, so he's definitely not standing on anything there, and he's towering over Moose Johnson who wasn't small, and he's taller than Kennedy too. And in the Ottawa photo from 1911, you can compare Alex Currie (6'0", far left) with Bruce Stuart and they're the same height. Disregard Jack Darragh because he's clearly sitting on something.

But this makes it fairly obvious to me that somehow Hod's and Bruce's heights has been mixed up with each other somewhere along the line. This isn't really too surprising to me as for the longest time the Hockey Hall of Fame website had a picture of Bruce (in Ottawa gear) representing Hod. And if they can mix up such a thing, clearly heights are really no different thing.

Hod is also listed as being heavier than Bruce, and they look equally stocky.

I think you're definitely onto something with the Stuart brothers.

Regarding the Victoria photo, yeah Patrick definitely looks taller than Genge there, but I wouldn't say it's by "a good couple of inches" unless we count his fabulous hair. It's probably 1 or 1 and a half inches or something, or at most 2. So if Patrick is 6 – 6'1" then Genge should be about 5'10" – 6.

4 inches seems like a pretty steep miscalculation, but I can't really say with certainty from where this would have come from.

I will say though that I find the quote on Genge's Wikipedia page, which is sourced from Stephen Harper's book, about him being a "dominating two-way player", probably a bit dubious or exaggerated too. So perhaps his alleged height came in a packaged sell job?

"Dominating" is a pretty strong word, it essentially means you're a tier above your opponents. And regarding "two-way", he didn't really put up that many points, at least. He probably was a "player" though.

Genge was in all honesty probably a pretty good player, and the Fort William–Port Arthur area and its league brought out a number of high quality players, especially Jack Walker, but I find it very hard to believe he was anything more than say a Pud Glass-level player, at best. Which isn't bad in any sense, but hardly "dominating".

One has also to take into consideration that the Patricks had to sell their new league to the broader masses. That obviously doesn't mean all PCHA players were overrated or manufactured frauds (especially not since PCHA teams won multiple Stanley Cups), and I am myself a fan and/or intrigued by many of its players, but sometimes you have to take a step back too and don't buy every single ice cream flavor from the vendor. This goes for all leagues, by the way, modern and ancient.

I'm thinking the exact same thing. Genge was still somewhat big, and seems to have been an energetic, physical player, and seems like exactly the type of player who you'd oversell as being larger in order to portray him as this powerful, dominating Atlas.

(nothing I've read suggests he was in any way dominant. He was a good role player, probably not even as valuable - but maybe he was - as Pud Glass)

 

[sr edler]

I think you're definitely onto something with the Stuart brothers.



I'm thinking the exact same thing. Genge was still somewhat big, and seems to have been an energetic, physical player, and seems like exactly the type of player who you'd oversell as being larger in order to portray him as this powerful, dominating Atlas.

(nothing I've read suggests he was in any way dominant. He was a good role player, probably not even as valuable - but maybe he was - as Pud Glass)

I don't know if it was a sell job on purpose, or what it was with Genge, but I actually came across an interesting story about this, just some week ago or something, regarding Joe Hall. According to Cobalt manager William B. Naylor, who was also a correspondent for the Montreal Daily Star, Hall along with Tommy Dunderdale and Walter Bellamy had underperformed the whole season (1910 inaugural NHA season), so towards the end of the season Shamrocks manager Barney Holden (also a player) allegedly contacted Naylor for the purpose of boosting him up in the papers, to save his pro career, which Naylor then did.

Hall apparently had a lousy game, but the Daily Star and some Ottawa paper raved about him.

Clipping from Calgary Herald - Newspapers.com

Now, Hall might have saved his pro career anyways, but it still shows the power of the press.

 

[kaiser matias]

Finally got a chance to finish the book, and I'm glad I did. It is great.

MacLeod covers each season of the Victoria team in a chapter, and each game is given coverage. He also provides information on pre-season and post-season moves, and as an added touch gives some other information on events happening around the world at that time, the type of stuff a newspaper reader would have seen when going over the highlights of the previous game. It gives some good context to the era, and was neat to see the world that the Victoria team was in.

Highly recommend this for anyone here, especially those looking for PCHA history stuff.