Pre-Game Talk: Canucks vs Flames. HNIC. 7PM. Saturday. It All Begins Again.

[CherryToke]

0-2 flames going to come in here and light us up

Linden Vey with the hat trick.

 

[MikeK]

I expect the Flames to come in here looking for blood. Combine that with our idiot coach and I fully expect a loss.

 

[JA]

Linden Vey with the hat trick.

I don't think he'll be in the lineup tomorrow. It would be remarkable if he scores a hat trick from the press box, but knowing the Canucks' luck, I would not rule it out.

 

[biturbo19]

Maybe without Dorsett you can make an argument for having Burrows and his lunch bucket, handle the defenseman style. Put Baertschi back on that line and ya, I can see it working. But when one wing is essentially "dead" (Dorsett) and the other is half-dead (Burrows) it doesn't give Bo much to work with. And I don't think "Bo worship" is a very fair or accurate term to describe what people are saying here. He's not Crosby by any stretch but he's the best offensive option we've got after Henrik and by quite a margin too. I don't think it is asking too much to want him put in a role that reflects that, no? Like why is that such a "crazy" thing to expect? Are we really that used to Willie's stupidity that expecting normal things now seems unreasonable?

But if you put Bae-Bo-Burrows together, you still have the issue where Baertschi is our 2nd best offensive winger, by a longshot right now...so that line becomes an "offensive line" in deployment and expectation. Which completely defeats the purpose of what they're trying to do with Bo in the first place. At that point, you may as well not bother with Burrows on the unit...and just give them Virtanen or Hansen and hand them the scoring role minutes.


I think it really comes down to two components:

1)WillieD seems to think that giving somebody Dorsett as a linemate is akin to giving them a great all-around defensively responsible with offensive instincts sort of ideal linemate to work with. Which is false, but WillieD gonna derp - and massively overestimating a particular player is usually how he derps hardest. I think we're both probably completely agreed on this point.

2)Disagreement over this idea that our "3rd best scorer" from the year we didn't score should be padded into a cushy "scoring role" gig by default, for some potential short-term gain, or for the greatest benefit to Bo's personal scoring stat-line.

Long-term, i just don't see the point in that. I think it's short-sighted - and the sort of desperation move that a coach makes to save his own behind, at the expense of that player's future development and value to a winning team. You know...the potential value a more defensively responsible 50pt Horvat might have when he's expected to lead the next wave of this team out of the dark ages. The value he might grow in building his offense out of his bedrock of defensive conscientiousness, rather than out of desperation and soft deployment.

ie. Horvat doesn't need to be given the Cody Hodgson treatment to get to where he's hopefully going. He's a guy who, if he's going to be a player we really build around as a #2C for the future...ought to be able to handle the Kesler route to the top, if that's what it takes. The kid is still just 21 years old for cripes sake.

 

[biturbo19]

The problem is that we're coming off the lowest scoring season in Canucks history, and our coach starts this one by saying: "Hey, stop trying to score!" to one of the very, very few sources of offence around here.

You don't see the problem with that?

It reminds me of last preseason, where Bo, Baertschi and Virtanen scored 10 points in one game, and Willie said: "Okay, let's not do that again. Let's shelve that combo, and maybe come back to it later." Another example is Stecher this year. Outplays every dman we have except Edler, makes things happen on a moribund PP, plays with style, flash, generates offence from the back end, which we're desperate for...and the team says: "Not interested yet. Head to Utica." From further back, remember how seeing Kassian score for us produced nothing but glowering scowls from the GM's box?

This team is run by people who can't even seem to understand what the object of the game is.

If you gave WD the keys to a brand-new Lamborghini, he'd probably get a tow hitch put on it and complain when it doesn't haul bales of hay around a farmyard very well.

This statement is ridiculous hyperbole. That's not at all what they've been trying to communicate.

There's a wide gulf between saying, "hey stop trying to score"...and saying, "hey, get back to taking care of your own end first and let the offense come from there, but don't force it".


I don't understand how so many people are interpreting these comments from coaching/management as telling Bo to "stop scoring so much". That's not at all what it is. It's simply asking for a more honest two-way game, from which Bo's ability to generate offense (if it's as good as we all hope) should still be able to eventually flourish.

 

[Zombotron]

I don't have a GDT drawn up for this game, but if someone can throw out some ideas, I can put it together fairly quickly...

No butts this time.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Linden (vey) oriented

 

[CherryToke]

I don't understand how so many people are interpreting these comments from coaching/management as telling Bo to "stop scoring so much". That's not at all what it is. It's simply asking for a more honest two-way game, from which Bo's ability to generate offense (if it's as good as we all hope) should still be able to eventually flourish.

Why can't he play an "honest two-way" game in a secondary offensive role? He won't be matched up against teams shutdown players and he won't be asked to shutdown other teams best players like he was last year. Why the **** can't we try that? it seems like a perfect situation for him actually.

 

[VanCanucks53]

This coach continues to leave me speechless. No logic at all. His deployment of Horvat is ridiculous.

 

[WTG]

I don't have a GDT drawn up for this game, but if someone can throw out some ideas, I can put it together fairly quickly...

No butts this time.

 

[clunk]

I don't have a GDT drawn up for this game, but if someone can throw out some ideas, I can put it together fairly quickly...

No butts this time.

?

Why not?

 

[y2kcanucks]

I don't have a GDT drawn up for this game, but if someone can throw out some ideas, I can put it together fairly quickly...

No butts this time.

Something to do with the storm? The storm blew away your GDT.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

This statement is ridiculous hyperbole. That's not at all what they've been trying to communicate.

There's a wide gulf between saying, "hey stop trying to score"...and saying, "hey, get back to taking care of your own end first and let the offense come from there, but don't force it".


I don't understand how so many people are interpreting these comments from coaching/management as telling Bo to "stop scoring so much". That's not at all what it is. It's simply asking for a more honest two-way game, from which Bo's ability to generate offense (if it's as good as we all hope) should still be able to eventually flourish.

Watch Bo's deployment. Look at the linemates WD is playing him with. What kind of "honest two-way game" comes with lining up with Burr and Dorsett? By the time they finally fluke their way out of their own zone, they'll only have enough energy to hit centre ice and dump it in for a line change.

Here's a player who struggled with hard defensive assignments, which is no big surprise for a sophomore player. He did start to show life as an offensive player. So now that we've got Sutter back for those hard matchups you'd want a vet for, why not give him those hard matchups and let Bo continue to develop at what he showed aptitude for? You know, the thing we missed most badly last year? Scoring...?

I just don't understand why this is not intuitive.

 

[M2Beezy]

I don't have a GDT drawn up for this game, but if someone can throw out some ideas, I can put it together fairly quickly...

No butts this time.

How bout something like Baertchi and Granlund VS Shincky and Higgy and Vey

 

[biturbo19]

Why can't he play an "honest two-way" game in a secondary offensive role? He won't be matched up against teams shutdown players and he won't be asked to shutdown other teams best players like he was last year. Why the **** can't we try that? it seems like a perfect situation for him actually.

Because something as nebulous as "secondary offensive role" doesn't mean a lot.

What does that mean for Horvat's defensive starts? What they want, and i think reasonably so...is for Horvat to load up on defensive starts and continue to grow that ability in his game. The ability to eat own zone starts while producing "secondary offense". That starts in his own end. And that's going to be the bread and butter of his game as our #2C heir apparent. Long-term, you want him to settle in that 40-45% OZone Starts range like a Bergeron/Kesler/Couturier mold...and excel.

And that DZone skewed zone start ratio is inherently going to see Horvat and his linemates matched up frequently against top offensive lines. That's just the nature of DZone starts.

What does that mean for Horvat's linemates? You're out yo dang mind if you think it'd be a good idea to saddle Baertschi with 40-45% OZone starts ratio, right now at least. So what's left for LWers? Burrows/Gaunce/Granlund/Skille/Virtanen/Dorsett are your real options here. Is there really that much disparity among the quality of the remainder?


There's no reason that a sensible coach couldn't continue to have that Bae-Bo bromance in his bag of tricks though. Ready to pull out when the team is down a goal or two midway through a game and needs an offensive spark. Or if you see a matchup vs 2nd pair defencemen that you think you can completely shred.

 

[biturbo19]

Watch Bo's deployment. Look at the linemates WD is playing him with. What kind of "honest two-way game" comes with lining up with Burr and Dorsett? By the time they finally fluke their way out of their own zone, they'll only have enough energy to hit centre ice and dump it in for a line change.

Here's a player who struggled with hard defensive assignments, which is no big surprise for a sophomore player. He did start to show life as an offensive player. So now that we've got Sutter back for those hard matchups you'd want a vet for, why not give him those hard matchups and let Bo continue to develop at what he showed aptitude for? You know, the thing we missed most badly last year? Scoring...?

I just don't understand why this is not intuitive.

So what you're saying is essentially, "Bo drowned in tough matchups while also expected to produce offensively"...which is exactly what the coaching staff are saying.

But your solution is more or less, "forget the idea of Bo being the 2-way stalwart he was drafted to be, and forget that defensive matchup portion of his game on which he's always prided himself and built his reputation in the first place. Let him cheat, float, play cushy minutes and cut corners and whatever else it takes to be a pure offensive player he's never really naturally been"...because our team needs offense right now.

Instead of the "idiot Canucks coaches" approach of, "let Bo find his groove as an own-zone first center again...and hopefully chip in offensively as the opportunities come, and build from there towards being a more complete offensive player".


I just don't understand why some fans are so intent on completely throwing the idea of developing Horvat's 2-way potential out the window in favour of some immediate gratification in the form of some extra points this season (which most of these same fans are convinced is a completely lost cause from the start anyway )




It's a simple problem:

Top Offensive Responsibility+Top Defensive Responsibility = Horvat drowned to death.

Your solution seems to be to lift the Defensive Responsibility component from him.

The coaches and management have opted to try to remove at least some of the Offensive Responsibility.


When you look at what Horvat can potentially be, what he was drafted to be, and what he'd be most valuable as in the future...which one makes more sense to you? Are you worried that Horvat is going to somehow "unlearn" his natural offensive creativity if he has to play a more defensive role for a while? Or is it perhaps a bigger worry that he's going to "unlearn" the defensive habits and commitment that got him to where he is in the first place, if he's handed carte blanche to do whatever it takes to produce points offensively?

For me, it's rather intuitive that the latter is probably a more reasonable "fear" with a player like Horvat.

 

[EpochLink]

Is this the GDT or the 'complain and rant' thread. Someone direct me to the GDT

 

[Zombotron]

Is this the GDT or the 'complain and rant' thread. Someone direct me to the GDT

Ten minutes.

 

[biturbo19]

Ten minutes.

Will there be butts???