Canucks Managerial Thread | 7

[arttk]

Bingo.

There's a reason they look like idiots for the Bickell contract. It went against their own team philosophy.

They probably wouldn't have won that cup if not for Bickell. He was like the 2nd or 3rd point getter that playoffs. He had that much of an impact that run.

Click to read more...

 

[Wilch]

They probably wouldn't have won that cup if not for Bickell. He was like the 2nd or 3rd point getter that playoffs. He had that much of an impact that run.

Not to mention he scored the GTG in G6 of the SCF.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Is he paid like a 2nd liner?
Everyone has always agreed that he had been misplaced. I don't see how that is somehow his fault.

Even then he has been able to put up 2nd liner points despite not being really a 2nd liner.

Higgins hasn't put up 2nd line points since 2011-12. He's scored 35-39 (15 in 41 in 2013 so 30 points) in the last three years.

He's also been a constant fixture on the 2PP for the last 3 years.

Those are not top 6 numbers, I can't see how you can slice it.

 

[arttk]

Higgins has been trotted out on the 2nd line before Benning got here. It has gone on for way too long

That has nothing to do with Higgins unless you are arguing that he somehow blackmailed the coach to play him on the 2nd line.

 

[Cupless44]

I think Benning mismanaged the depth but this is an issue that's gone way back for years. 2011, who did we have if Kesler got hurt? Malhotra who as amazing as he was, doesn't come close to that.

Benning at least made an effort to give us what we wanted with youth and now we complain that they're not doing well enough. In the summer everyone was gung ho for Bo to be the 2C. Including myself. Now this looks foolish.

Hell, even at the start of the season we were thrilled because McCann looked like a top 6er. How's that going?

You can't have depth and make room for kids at the same time. One has to give for the other and if you go with the latter you deal with where we are right now.

As Ferraro has often said so wisely, you can't have one foot in each direction. It is time for the ownership and management to grasp the situation and come up with a decisive plan to rebuild properly

 

[arttk]

Higgins hasn't put up 2nd line points since 2011-12. He's scored 35-39 (15 in 41 in 2013 so 30 points) in the last three years.

He's also been a constant fixture on the 2PP for the last 3 years.

Those are not top 6 numbers, I can't see how you can slice it.

Scoring has been trending down for the last couple years. Those are 2nd line numbers, they are not elite 2nd line numbers but for 2.5M those are solid 2nd line numbers.
I mean look at Beleskey, puts up 32 points as a 2nd liner and look how much he is paid now.
Matthieu put up 41 points and look at how much he is paid.

 

[Wilch]

My guess Willie gets canned (rightfully so in the sense that he's incompetent, wrongfully so as the scapegoat for this entire mess) by thread 10.

I'm hoping Benning is fired by thread 15.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I disagree with the idea that you can't have depth and youth at the same time. I think you can. Youth is often cheap, so if you spend your remaining cap dollars wisely you can have solid depth.

The problem here is we're completely wasting $18M on absolute garbage that Benning has signed (Miller's bloated contract, Weber, Bartkowski, Sbisa, Dorsett, and Prust). Add to that the combined $7M we are paying to Burrows and Higgins and that's $25M wasted on either replacement level players, or veterans who we should have cut ties with a year or two ago. And don't forget the $800k we are paying Roberto Luongo to play against us.

And this isn't even considering Sutter's contract which I still don't like (his new contract).

We certainly had the cap funds available to provide this young group with adequate depth. It was just piss poorly spent.

 

[DFAC]

Incompetent coach & incompetent GM, not a good combo to have at all

 

[Wilch]

Incompetent coach & incompetent GM, not a good combo to have at all

Incompetent coaching usually stems from incompetent management.

Stupid people hire stupid people.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Scoring has been trending down for the last couple years. Those are 2nd line numbers, they are not elite 2nd line numbers but for 2.5M those are solid 2nd line numbers.
I mean look at Beleskey, puts up 32 points as a 2nd liner and look how much he is paid now.
Matthieu put up 41 points and look at how much he is paid.

He was 189th in scoring last year. That puts him into high 3rd liner production. This is despite 2nd line minutes and 2PP time.

Our second line has been on the really low end of scoring for years, even with Kesler. Beleskey is overpaid because that's the reality of free agency. He's also 5 years younger than Higgins (3 years younger than him when Higgins signed his current deal).

I don't have an issue with his points for his salary, it's fine. I have an issue with current and former management and coaching who continually play him there and prevent the team from actually acquiring a player better suited for it.

 

[VanillaCoke]

What's Eakins up to these days?

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Keeping the team together for so long is how you make the team stale like we had. You look at a team like Chicago and they have constantly had to shuffle their depth players. Guys like Bolland and Versteeg got too expensive and were replaced with younger, cheaper players. Our GM's haven't thought that way and that's a major difference between the two organizations.

Yes, exactly. EX-****ing-actly. Bolland and Versteeg were too expensive. Chris Higgins is not too expensive. That's the thing. They had to eat salary on Versteeg just to dump him. Ironically, if he was on Higgins's contract they would have been better off. They either would have traded him in full or they would have just kept him and it wouldn't have been a big deal because he wouldn't have been making 4.4M.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

I'm not overvaluing our players this year. I agree Higgins has been crap this year. Burrows has been crap most of the year. But who cares? After what we've gotten from them this decade, it was well worth one crap year at the end of their contracts.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Yes, exactly. EX-****ing-actly. Bolland and Versteeg were too expensive. Chris Higgins is not too expensive. That's the thing. They had to eat salary on Versteeg just to dump him. Ironically, if he was on Higgins's contract they would have been better off. They either would have traded him in full or they would have just kept him and it wouldn't have been a big deal because he wouldn't have been making 4.4M.

Chicago didn't retain salary on Versteeg, it was Florida who retained half the contract when he was moved to Chicago the second time.

 

[thepuckmonster]

I'm not overvaluing our players this year. I agree Higgins has been crap this year. Burrows has been crap most of the year. But who cares? After what we've gotten from them this decade, it was well worth one crap year at the end of their contracts.

This is a big reason why we're at where we are. We're still paying players for past accomplishments. There's far too much emotional attachment.

The NHL is a business and that's the harsh truth. I appreciate everything Burrows, Higgins, et al have given us but the attitude of "it's fine that they're not playing well because they did a few years ago" is just as bad as overpaying for ridiculous things like grit and what not.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Yup agreed we got what we could out of Higgins and Burrows, Vrbata and Hamhuis... Time to nut up and trade these guys now.

 

[arttk]

He was 189th in scoring last year. That puts him into high 3rd liner production. This is despite 2nd line minutes and 2PP time.

Our second line has been on the really low end of scoring for years, even with Kesler. Beleskey is overpaid because that's the reality of free agency. He's also 5 years younger than Higgins (3 years younger than him when Higgins signed his current deal).

I don't have an issue with his points for his salary, it's fine. I have an issue with current and former management and coaching who continually play him there and prevent the team from actually acquiring a player better suited for it.

Like I said, nothing you say is his fault. His misuse has nothing to do with him. His presence alone doesn't force himself into the 2nd line.

I would argue the previous management has tried to get a guy or two ahead of him, remember Raymond and Booth? It's unfortunate injuries ruined both their career.
The current management has so far not done anything to try to get a guy in front of him.

Oh the 189 thing is pretty misleading. I mean there is like a 5 point difference between him and Perrrault and Perrault earns 1.9M more.
Even a guy like Gallagher who we all would love to have is really only scoring 47points more while getting paid 3M more.

 

[arttk]

Uhh 47 points, not 47 points more.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

This is a big reason why we're at where we are. We're still paying players for past accomplishments. There's far too much emotional attachment.

The NHL is a business and that's the harsh truth. I appreciate everything Burrows, Higgins, et al have given us but the attitude of "it's fine that they're not playing well because they did a few years ago" is just as bad as overpaying for ridiculous things like grit and what not.

That's not the point. Jesus, we didn't just sign these contracts this summer. They were signed years ago and for the most part we've gotten good value for the deal. If you buy a house and it goes up in value for four years and then goes down in value in year 5 you don't claim that it was a poor investment or that you're "paying for the past." Come on.

And no, it's not "a big reason" why we're here. We can easily, easily, easily be a contender with these contracts. What's hurting us, CRIPPLING US, actually, is the money we've flushed down the toilet on worthless players like Miller, Dorsett and Sbisa.

Burrows was maybe a touch overpaid last year but even that is being completely blown out of proportion.

 

[thepuckmonster]

That's not the point. Jesus, we didn't just sign these contracts this summer. They were signed years ago and for the most part we've gotten good value for the deal. If you buy a house and it goes up in value for four years and then goes down in value in year 5 you don't claim that it was a poor investment or that you're "paying for the past." Come on.

And no, it's not "a big reason" why we're here. We can easily, easily, easily be a contender with these contracts. What's hurting us, CRIPPLING US, actually, is the money we've flushed down the toilet on worthless players like Miller, Dorsett and Sbisa.

Burrows was maybe a touch overpaid last year but even that is being completely blown out of proportion.

There is legitimately zero percent chance that we could be a contender without Miller and the bad contract crew. That was painfully obvious before those contracts were even signed.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

There is legitimately zero percent chance that we could be a contender without Miller and the bad contract crew. That was painfully obvious before those contracts were even signed.

Could not disagree more.

Replace Miller with a 2M goalie.
Replace Dorsett and Prust for maybe 3M.
Replace Sbisa with a 5M defender.
Replace Sutter with a 6M center.
Replace Bartkowski with Biega.
Keep Brad Richardson.

We wouldn't have the best team, but we'd easily be in the playoff race, and not mired in this *******.

 

[arttk]

There is legitimately zero percent chance that we could be a contender without Miller and the bad contract crew. That was painfully obvious before those contracts were even signed.

Well we were a playoff team mostly with players from the previous regime doing all the work. It's like Lack didn't carry us into the playoffs right?

I am pretty damn sure 6M could've gotten us a good 2nd line player to go along with Vrbata.

 

[Ainec]

Neuvirth, Richardson, Santorelli, Garrison, Palmieri

that's like 7M in extra cap space and not giving up more assets (picks)

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Sedins/Hansen
Matthias-Playmaker-Vrbata
Higgins-Horvat-Burrows
Cracknell-Richardson-Virtanen

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis-Garrison
Hutton-Biega

Markstrom
Cheap quality veteran G.

That's a decent team, and would have been absolutely dead simple for a GM to have put together. That's not even making the optimal moves, just making some okay ones and not making disastrous ones. That's what a slightly below-average GM would have given us, rather than the worst GM in the NHL.