Canucks Managerial Thread | 6

[Verviticus]

weird, after pointing out how incredibly wrong drop the sopel was, he vanished from the conversation entirely. well, im far too modest to claim victory so i'll just bow out politely and unintrusively.

 

[thepuckmonster]

We can't trade Higgins to anyone period because nobody wants him.

I can't remember if he was shopped or not this year but I think I heard that he was.

Let's say Higgins is asked to make his list and he wants to go to teams that have no need for him. Then what?

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Higgins is underrated around here but he hasn't provided some of the best value over the last 5 years in regards to contract.

An average of 35-40 points at 2.5M is a good contract, not a great one. Higgins provides streaky secondary scoring while being above average defensively but also can't stay healthy. He's a third liner that was capable of playing 2nd line because of chemistry with Kesler.

"The best value" would have been someone like Burrows at 2M or Edler at 3M.

Higgins is a third liner that is paid like a third liner with an NTC. It's not a travesty but it's hardly a steal.

It's a steal. A two-way 40-point veteran winger for 2.5M over 5 years is a steal.

"Can't stay healthy" is ludicrous. He's having 1 bad injury-riddled year after playing basically 4 full seasons.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Sure, they're 3rd liners after all, but try acquiring one and you end up overpaying in assets or money. There's absolutely value in having those two locked up for such low money. Surely that would be only more apparent now that our GM went out and got two 4th liners for the same money (and both for more assets than Higgins).

We acquired Higgins for a song.

There are guys available, but I've also always been of the opinion that a 3rd line is a good spot to incorporate some youth into the team.

 

[Cupless44]

Yep. NTCs and NMCs should be used on what GMs believe to be core players. A big reason why we're where we are is because at one point our core was 8-9 players (Sedins, Burrows, Higgins, Hansen, Garrison, Edler, Hamhuis, Bieksa, Luongo, Kesler) which is too many. I can't remember if we decided to honour Ballard and Booth's NTCs after trade right now either but I'll go with no just for arguments sake.

If you lose Higgins because he wants 4M then fine, you replace him through free agency or a trade. The answer isn't to give 2nd/3rd line tweeners NTCs to keep their salaries down.

You identify 4-5 players you want to build around and lock them up with NTCs/NMCs. The supporting cast, even if overpaid shouldn't be unless it's short term high performing players (Vrbata would be that).

Completely right.

I never saw why replaceable 3rd line players were being given NTCs.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I can't remember if he was shopped or not this year but I think I heard that he was.

Let's say Higgins is asked to make his list and he wants to go to teams that have no need for him. Then what?

Exactly.

And it was suggested by that Tanbir guy that we trade Higgins, and Trevor Linden said, clear as day, that nobody wants him.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

I can't remember if he was shopped or not this year but I think I heard that he was.

Let's say Higgins is asked to make his list and he wants to go to teams that have no need for him. Then what?

Then we keep him.

I couldn't care less about this. It's as myopic as it gets. Guy has been here 5 seasons. He's have one crap year and he's still not hurting us much because his contract is so cheap. If I knew ahead of time that he'd play here 5 years and be a terrific defensive winger putting up 35-40 points a year for 4 years and then have one **** year at 2015-16, I'd happily make that deal again and again. I'd give him an unwaiveable NMC. I don't care. It's utterly as irrelevant as it gets.

Good God, look at Ryan Miller 6M for this year and next. Look at Sbisa. Look at Derek Dorsett making more than Higgins for four ****ing seasons after this one. These utter black holes that we have backed a dumptruck to and dumped money into, these are crippling the Canucks 10x more than oh noez Chris Higgins doesn't want to be traded to the Sabres. Who ****ing cares.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Completely right.

I never saw why replaceable 3rd line players were being given NTCs.

3rd liners have value, and yes Higgins did give us some good years, and Hansen has been a good player for us. But you can find these guys on a lot of teams. Long-term deals with NTC's is not a good idea for 3rd line level players. Anywhere. People here (and the Gillis regime is guilty of this too) get too attached to our players who have been here a long time.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Then we keep him.

I couldn't care less about this. It's as myopic as it gets. Guy has been here 5 seasons. He's have one crap year and he's still not hurting us much because his contract is so cheap. If I knew ahead of time that he'd play here 5 years and be a terrific defensive winger putting up 35-40 points a year for 4 years and then have one **** year at 2015-16, I'd happily make that deal again and again. I'd give him an unwaiveable NMC. I don't care. It's utterly as irrelevant as it gets.

Good God, look at Ryan Miller 6M for this year and next. Look at Sbisa. Look at Derek Dorsett making more than Higgins for four ****ing seasons after this one. These utter black holes that we have backed a dumptruck to and dumped money into, these are crippling the Canucks 10x more than oh noez Chris Higgins doesn't want to be traded to the Sabres. Who ****ing cares.

Sbisa and Dorsett might as well have NTC's because those contracts are not movable.

 

[me2]

I don't have a problem with his salary. I have a problem having 8-9 NTCs on the team at a time. It makes any sort of moves nearly impossible.

I love Higgins and defend him a lot. That doesn't mean I consider him to be a player who should have an NTC.

There is no problem with having that many, they were trying to keep the team together, reducing cap made sense. Even now the NTCs are not proving to be a problem, they can still move these guys. The issue is getting the GM smart enough to release when and who to move rather that letting players without NTCs walk as UFAs and holding onto old NTCs players until they are valueless.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Sbisa and Dorsett might as well have NTC's because those contracts are not movable.

Which is exactly my point.

Would I give Sbisa an NTC if we could reduce his salary by 1M? Yes I would. As you just said, he's untradeable anyway so all you're doing is saving a million bucks.

But it breaks the dogma of "only blah blahs should blah blah blah." Who cares. WHo ****ing cares.

 

[Cupless44]

Well it really depends on how much they value him. They probably saw him as a good 3rd line guy that couple move up and down the lineup and don't mind keeping for the next couple of years. If they have no plans to get rid of him for X years then why would having a NTC matter especially if it lowers the cost.

The problem is and why some probably dislike Higgins so much, is that he was miscast way too long on the 2nd line, again because of incompetent drafting and the inability to find a legitimate 2nd line winger.
He is lethargic, has 2 goals in 20 games and he still gets trotted out on the 2nd line! He also went quite a while without scoring a goal in the playoffs while looking invisible

 

[arttk]

Then we keep him.

I couldn't care less about this. It's as myopic as it gets. Guy has been here 5 seasons. He's have one crap year and he's still not hurting us much because his contract is so cheap. If I knew ahead of time that he'd play here 5 years and be a terrific defensive winger putting up 35-40 points a year for 4 years and then have one **** year at 2015-16, I'd happily make that deal again and again. I'd give him an unwaiveable NMC. I don't care. It's utterly as irrelevant as it gets.

Good God, look at Ryan Miller 6M for this year and next. Look at Sbisa. Look at Derek Dorsett making more than Higgins for four ****ing seasons after this one. These utter black holes that we have backed a dumptruck to and dumped money into, these are crippling the Canucks 10x more than oh noez Chris Higgins doesn't want to be traded to the Sabres. Who ****ing cares.

Pretty much this. Higgins at 2.5 M playing on a 4th line is still a better option than Dorsett and Prust on the 4th line.
Actually that would be an ideal scenario, have a 30-40 point guy on your 4th line.

It's ridiculous that there is even a discussion around this. It's like there is nobody else left to critize from the old management team.

 

[thepuckmonster]

It's a steal. A two-way 40-point veteran winger for 2.5M over 5 years is a steal.

"Can't stay healthy" is ludicrous. He's having 1 bad injury-riddled year after playing basically 4 full seasons.

Honestly this seems like what I see a lot on hockey forums: fans overvaluing their own players. It's not exclusive to Canucks fans either.

If our "best value" players are really as good as people say, why is it that we're a bad team? No matter how much ire one has Prust, Dorsett, whoever they don't make the whole bottom 9 inept at scoring.

Is Desjardins underwhelming? Yes. But if you look at this roster right now and expect any other results aside from where we are I don't know what to say.

The fact of the matter is on the forward group the only players consistently performing to or above the level of their contracts are the Sedins and Hansen. Higgins is absolutely not providing us with value on his contract right now. Can that change? Yes but we need to stop fixating on things our players did 2-4 years ago and focus on the right now.

And right now the only players that have consistently been good are the Sedins and Hansen. Period.

 

[y2kcanucks]

There is no problem with having that many, they were trying to keep the team together, reducing cap made sense. Even now the NTCs are not proving to be a problem, they can still move these guys. The issue is getting the GM smart enough to release when and who to move rather that letting players without NTCs walk as UFAs and holding onto old NTCs players until they are valueless.

Keeping the team together for so long is how you make the team stale like we had. You look at a team like Chicago and they have constantly had to shuffle their depth players. Guys like Bolland and Versteeg got too expensive and were replaced with younger, cheaper players. Our GM's haven't thought that way and that's a major difference between the two organizations.

 

[arttk]

The problem is and why some probably dislike Higgins so much, is that he was miscast way too long on the 2nd line, again because of incompetent drafting and the ability to find a legitimate 2nd line winger.
He is lethargic, has 2 goals in 20 games and he still gets trotted out on the 2nd line! He also went quite a while without scoring a goal in the playoffs while looking invisible

You do realize that he is played on the 2nd line because the current management team blew all his cap space on useless players.
If we are not paying Prust and Dorsett 5M, we might actually have a 2nd liner UFA that can push Higgins down to the 3rd line where he belongs.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Keeping the team together for so long is how you make the team stale like we had. You look at a team like Chicago and they have constantly had to shuffle their depth players. Guys like Bolland and Versteeg got too expensive and were replaced with younger, cheaper players. Our GM's haven't thought that way and that's a major difference between the two organizations.

Bingo.

There's a reason they look like idiots for the Bickell contract. It went against their own team philosophy.

 

[thepuckmonster]

You do realize that he is played on the 2nd line because the current management team blew all his cap space on useless players.
If we are not paying Prust and Dorsett 5M, we might actually have a 2nd liner UFA that can push Higgins down to the 3rd line where he belongs.

Please, Higgins has been played on the second line pretty much every game since he came here. It's not a Benningcentric problem, Higgins was a fixture on Kesler's LW for 3 years.

 

[Cupless44]

3rd liners have value, and yes Higgins did give us some good years, and Hansen has been a good player for us. But you can find these guys on a lot of teams. Long-term deals with NTC's is not a good idea for 3rd line level players. Anywhere. People here (and the Gillis regime is guilty of this too) get too attached to our players who have been here a long time.

Look I appreciate the guys, the run in 2011 and all that, but th reason this thing is so stale, and so hard to watch is that some of these guys have been here just too long and we have seen the same act where they dont measure up in the playoffs for a few years now. That and the guys Benning has brought in are lame, with the exception maybe of a healthy Sutter

 

[arttk]

Honestly this seems like what I see a lot on hockey forums: fans overvaluing their own players. It's not exclusive to Canucks fans either.

If our "best value" players are really as good as people say, why is it that we're a bad team? No matter how much ire one has Prust, Dorsett, whoever they don't make the whole bottom 9 inept at scoring.

Is Desjardins underwhelming? Yes. But if you look at this roster right now and expect any other results aside from where we are I don't know what to say.

The fact of the matter is on the forward group the only players consistently performing to or above the level of their contracts are the Sedins and Hansen. Higgins is absolutely not providing us with value on his contract right now. Can that change? Yes but we need to stop fixating on things our players did 2-4 years ago and focus on the right now.

And right now the only players that have consistently been good are the Sedins and Hansen. Period.

Look at our center depth and our D depth then you will realize why we suck.

We have no dman that can start or join or do anything regarding offense. We don't have centers that can generate offense outside of Henrik.

A winger can only do so much if the D and the C suck.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Bingo.

There's a reason they look like idiots for the Bickell contract. It went against their own team philosophy.

Yup. And they were smart enough to rectify that mistake. Look, they're now dealing a guy considered to be a core player (Sharp). But what do they do? They find a younger, cheaper replacement in Panarin.

A lot of it has to do with quality pro scouting. In that regard I have zero confidence in this organization. But it goes hand in hand with a willingness to let go when necessary.

 

[arttk]

Please, Higgins has been played on the second line pretty much every game since he came here. It's not a Benningcentric problem, Higgins was a fixture on Kesler's LW for 3 years.

Is he paid like a 2nd liner?
Everyone has always agreed that he had been misplaced. I don't see how that is somehow his fault.

Even then he has been able to put up 2nd liner points despite not being really a 2nd liner.

 

[Cupless44]

Keeping the team together for so long is how you make the team stale like we had. You look at a team like Chicago and they have constantly had to shuffle their depth players. Guys like Bolland and Versteeg got too expensive and were replaced with younger, cheaper players. Our GM's haven't thought that way and that's a major difference between the two organizations.

Exactly. You have to be able to draft some younger Saads and Shaws and Teruvanens to step in though.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Look at our center depth and our D depth then you will realize why we suck.

We have no dman that can start or join or do anything regarding offense. We don't have centers that can generate offense outside of Henrik.

A winger can only do so much if the D and the C suck.

I think Benning mismanaged the depth but this is an issue that's gone way back for years. 2011, who did we have if Kesler got hurt? Malhotra who as amazing as he was, doesn't come close to that.

Benning at least made an effort to give us what we wanted with youth and now we complain that they're not doing well enough. In the summer everyone was gung ho for Bo to be the 2C. Including myself. Now this looks foolish.

Hell, even at the start of the season we were thrilled because McCann looked like a top 6er. How's that going?

You can't have depth and make room for kids at the same time. One has to give for the other and if you go with the latter you deal with where we are right now.

 

[Cupless44]

You do realize that he is played on the 2nd line because the current management team blew all his cap space on useless players.
If we are not paying Prust and Dorsett 5M, we might actually have a 2nd liner UFA that can push Higgins down to the 3rd line where he belongs.

Higgins has been trotted out on the 2nd line before Benning got here. It has gone on for way too long