Canucks Managerial Thread | 5

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[Saturated Fats]

@SmugLesnarFace - I know it doesn't fit your agenda, but if you don't think that Vrbata was a useful free agent acquisition last year (in that he was the catalyst in our making the playoffs), then your selective amnesia is acting up.

I would even argue that Miller has been useful, if only in the sense that his outstanding first two/two-and-a-half months last year is what steadied the team and pivoted it towards said playoff run.

I know, I wish it was still Luongo between the pipes. But it isn't, and we need to dissociate ourselves from these biases and view these things from logical, even non-sarcastic, viewpoints.

 

[Bleach Clean]

@Reign Nateo: I don't want to constantly re-hash the points against your arguments of "this was inevitable" and "they knew, and this is a stealth tank". But I will say that I disagree with both notions for the simple reasons of:

- The Sedins are still providing top end 1st line value right now, and the top pairing is performing like a top pairing level. If this was inevitable, nobody told the top5. It's the support that has fallen apart.

- Bad cap management is not an inevitability. It's not an absolute. And if that is not an absolute, your result cannot be an absolute.

- If this is to disguise a rebuild, then management shouldn't be bleeding futures either. Which they have done in multiple deals.

The majority of this board has disliked what Benning has done here. Like all fanbases, a portion of this one is very dialed in, some moderately so, and others not at all. Saying this, I would not discount ALL opinion as being uninformed. It's too easy a thing to do, and it marginalizes the 'tuned in' fan's intelligence. No, some people have picked this regime apart and have shown their homework in doing so. That has to be acknowledged.

 

[coldsteel79]

@Reign Nateo: I don't want to constantly re-hash the points against your arguments of "this was inevitable" and "they knew, and this is a stealth tank". But I will say that I disagree with both notions for the simple reasons of:

- The Sedins are still providing top end 1st line value right now, and the top pairing is performing like a top pairing level. If this was inevitable, nobody told the top5. It's the support that has fallen apart.

- Bad cap management is not an inevitability. It's not an absolute. And if that is not an absolute, your result cannot be an absolute.

- If this is to disguise a rebuild, then management shouldn't be bleeding futures either. Which they have done in multiple deals.

The majority of this board has disliked what Benning has done here. Like all fanbases, a portion of this one is very dialed in, some moderately so, and others not at all. Saying this, I would not discount ALL opinion as being uninformed. It's too easy a thing to do, and it marginalizes the 'tuned in' fan's intelligence. No, some people have picked this regime apart and have shown their homework in doing so. That has to be acknowledged.

Of course the support fell apart there were no prospects to help the top lines. You can't get 2nd line players without giving something up the Canucks have nothing to give up because there are very few prospects that anybody wants.

 

[arttk]

Of course the support fell apart there were no prospects to help the top lines. You can't get 2nd line players without giving something up the Canucks have nothing to give up because there are very few prospects that anybody wants.

Completely ignoring the fact that you can actually get 2nd line players via UFA or the fact the support fell apart (especially the center depth) because Benning made a decision to not keep the centers that we already had.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Of course the support fell apart there were no prospects to help the top lines. You can't get 2nd line players without giving something up the Canucks have nothing to give up because there are very few prospects that anybody wants.

Bonino had produced at a 2nd line rate at ES last year...? There's also this Vrbata guy... How did Benning get those guys?

 

[y2kcanucks]

@SmugLesnarFace - I know it doesn't fit your agenda, but if you don't think that Vrbata was a useful free agent acquisition last year (in that he was the catalyst in our making the playoffs), then your selective amnesia is acting up.

I would even argue that Miller has been useful, if only in the sense that his outstanding first two/two-and-a-half months last year is what steadied the team and pivoted it towards said playoff run.

I know, I wish it was still Luongo between the pipes. But it isn't, and we need to dissociate ourselves from these biases and view these things from logical, even non-sarcastic, viewpoints.

Vrbata had a nice season last year, sure. Disappeared in the playoffs though. Hasn't been worth his salary this season.

Ryan Miller was not outstanding to start the year last season. He had a .910 SVP by the end of December. That kind of goaltending isn't outstanding, especially for a $6M goalie. Miller was a horrible signing.

Nice personal insults too.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Of course the support fell apart there were no prospects to help the top lines. You can't get 2nd line players without giving something up the Canucks have nothing to give up because there are very few prospects that anybody wants.

Also hurts when you hemorrhage assets in every trade you make. Eventually that well will dry up.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Also hurts when you hemorrhage assets in every trade you make. Eventually that well will dry up.

And value in contracts. Both wells will be dry as a bone.

 

[Rebuilt]

I used to blame the Torts hiring and then the Miller signings among other things on the Twins desire to win a cup before they retire but that wasnt true.

Its Aquilini demanding more playoff revenue which is the main driving force behind the artificial delay of the needed rebuild.

I am glad we got Horvat and Mc Cann for Schneider and Kesler but we should have moved Edler among others before they arent worth much. We need to rebuild.

 

[tantalum]

Its Aquilini demanding more playoff revenue which is the main driving force behind the artificial delay of the needed rebuild.

This is an issue...to a degree (see below)

I am glad we got Horvat and Mc Cann for Schneider and Kesler but we should have moved Edler among others before they arent worth much. We need to rebuild.

That said, while that is the directive from above, the move to move execution has still been poor in trying to achieve the goal.

I think they are two different discussions to be honest.

1) Are the goals set by ownership/upper management attainable or the correct goals

AND

2) given the stated goals have and GM and coaching staff done things in the best manner to meet those goals


I believe that ownership wanting a playoff team that can win some rounds isn't a bad goal to have. I don't believe a team should really have a goal to tank or go for a high draft pick. Sometimes that is the hand dealt but the goal should always be to win the prize. But they seemingly have little to no flexibility in that goal. They appear willing to be hands on to get to that goal.

I believe that no matter the goals the management team and coaching haven't been at a level necessary to truly and reliably achieve the goals.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Forwards get injured
Let's call up an extra defenseman.

#Benning

 

[MS]

@Reign Nateo: I don't want to constantly re-hash the points against your arguments of "this was inevitable" and "they knew, and this is a stealth tank". But I will say that I disagree with both notions for the simple reasons of:

- The Sedins are still providing top end 1st line value right now, and the top pairing is performing like a top pairing level. If this was inevitable, nobody told the top5. It's the support that has fallen apart.

- Bad cap management is not an inevitability. It's not an absolute. And if that is not an absolute, your result cannot be an absolute.

- If this is to disguise a rebuild, then management shouldn't be bleeding futures either. Which they have done in multiple deals.

The majority of this board has disliked what Benning has done here. Like all fanbases, a portion of this one is very dialed in, some moderately so, and others not at all. Saying this, I would not discount ALL opinion as being uninformed. It's too easy a thing to do, and it marginalizes the 'tuned in' fan's intelligence. No, some people have picked this regime apart and have shown their homework in doing so. That has to be acknowledged.

The bolded is the really sad part.

The core of this team is performing. We have an excellent #1 line and a top shutdown defensive pairing. But in offseasons as GM, Benning has supplemented them with ... nothing.

 

[arttk]

The bolded is the really sad part.

The core of this team is performing. We have an excellent #1 line and a top shutdown defensive pairing. But in offseasons as GM, Benning has supplemented them with ... nothing.

Actually, nothing would be better, it would cost less. We supplemented them with expensive useless anchors.

 

[Trelane]

Forwards get injured
Let's call up an extra defenseman.

#Benning

I'm puzzled by this as much anyone. If Webber actually plays forward... WTF?

But I would think it's more a coach's decision as to who he plays and where. AV, who is something of a God among coaches, certainly best we ever had, was guilty of this regularly.

Play Bae, Grenier, or whoever, just no D!

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

they traded for bieksa because beauchimen walked as a free agent, it doesn't mean they don't have an organizational abundance of young dman in their system. how am I ignoring that? they're obviously valuable pieces who have trade value. bonino was coming off his best season, go look at how highly ducks fans thought of him in the Kesler talk deals, he was clearly more valued per their fans and logically speaking for a contending team.

it's not exactly an apt comparison, anaheim is contending and we're not so of course I wouldn't trade mccann or horvat for kesler. in 2012 would I have traded schneider or hodgson for carter, yeah you're damn right I would.

saying sutter has been better than bonino last year is wrong, and every method of analysis can prove it. bonino drove play well with the majority of wingers on the team, on top of playing the toughest minutes in the organization. sutter outside of his stint with the sedins has been average production and analytic wise.

Good depth. Anaheim was routinely criticised for their weaker defense. What fans think of Bonino isn't entirely relevant. That said, go ask them if they would rather have kept Bonino over Vatanen or Theodore and you would get very different answers. You keep concluded your own narrative, but have nothing to substantiate it. By acquiring Kesler, they were already replacing Bonino. Keeping him would have meant a surplus of forwards upfront, when they could sell high on someone they likely assumed wouldn't replicate his season.

Even in a vacuum, that would be an awful trade-- yet one you insist Anaheim would do the equivalent thereof. And so would I, except losing Hodgson and Schneider wouldn't have caused any hindrance to our roster. Anaheim losing Vatanen would be a much better blow. Regardless, Kesler didn't have Carter's value. So it's a rather moot point.

 

[Addison Rae]

Good depth. Anaheim was routinely criticised for their weaker defense. What fans think of Bonino isn't entirely relevant. That said, go ask them if they would rather have kept Bonino over Vatanen or Theodore and you would get very different answers. You keep concluded your own narrative, but have nothing to substantiate it. By acquiring Kesler, they were already replacing Bonino. Keeping him would have meant a surplus of forwards upfront, when they could sell high on someone they likely assumed wouldn't replicate his season.

Even in a vacuum, that would be an awful trade-- yet one you insist Anaheim would do the equivalent thereof. And so would I, except losing Hodgson and Schneider wouldn't have caused any hindrance to our roster. Anaheim losing Vatanen would be a much better blow. Regardless, Kesler didn't have Carter's value. So it's a rather moot point.

Again, you're using hindsight, so what if Ducks fans changed their mind? It makes absolutely no difference of what Bonino's value was at the time. You're not understanding the concept of Anaheim having an organizational strength with young dman, while we have an organizational weakness. When you're constructing a trade you should be looking to address organizational weaknesses, especially when you're trading your most valuable trading chip. The Anaheim Ducks wanted to improve their roster and felt Kesler was the piece to put them over the top, they clearly targeted him, so our backs weren't completely against the wall. Bonino showed chemistry with Getzlaf/Perry, by all accounts the Ducks were reluctant to move him, but Bennings pressed hard for him.

Neither Shea Theodore or Sami Vatanen had the trade value that McCann or Horvat currently has. You're suggesting that Theodore and Vatanen alone have more value than Ryan Kesler (at the time of his trade)? That's completely and utterly not true. I advise you to go back and read the Kesler trade threads on the main board. A commonly accepted deal was Vatanen + Perrault + 10, sure that didn't materialize but it suggests that Vatanen wasn't nearly as valued by his own fan base as you thought he was.

 

[KeninsFan]

Forwards get injured
Let's call up an extra defenseman.

#Benning

Yannick Weber is just as a good as a forward as he is a defensemen tho

 

[CherryToke]

Forwards get injured
Let's call up an extra defenseman.

#Benning

WD is the one constructing the lineup not Benning.

 

[PM]

Benning destroyed our depth so he could hand outrageous contracts to replacement level players and a crappy moody goaltender. It's his fault just as much as Willie.

 

[coolboarder]

When Kesler was still with us, I wish that Edler was traded for a pick, that way we'd have McCann in 2014 draft, this will force Benning to look for defenseman, rather than forwards we have today. If I'm Benning, I would hold on Kesler to his trade demands, even if he sits, I want the leverage, forcing Kesler to expand his list to 5, not 1 or 2, not bleeding assets.

I guess he does not want anything to do with distractions. What done is done, he did the best he could with what he had and what was available. I believe he knows what he is going to do, be patience with what is a transition year. If Benning want to make the playoffs, he would have let WD go with blown third period lead and 4 SH goals in two weeks. If he thinks that playoffs is not necessary, he will keep him while preparing for the trade deadline and the off-season.

He must read the players' body language on how they response to the coach. If he thinks that they are still playing hard, he will keep him until either, let his contract runs out or let him go at the end of the season if he thinks that this team is ready to contend in 2016-17 season.

One thing I like about Willie's is on ice strategy, it is different from the other teams on-ice strategy. It is a 5-man unit breakout, looking for ways to carry out, rather than dump-out. It requires speed and quick thinking. This strategy is keeping us in game despite deficient of our blue-line. If we have better defenseman, that 5-man strategy would be more effective. It all needs is better awareness and anticipation of what's happening on the ice because it severely burnt us if there's a missed assignment which led to a goal against. 5-man strategy is designed to keep the shot count down and control the possession. Anytime there's a missed assignment, it's a bad thing.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

from elliott friedman, the only guy in the world who is both team gillis and team benning:

16. The Canucks dressed five players on entry-level contracts against the Canadiens — Bo Horvat, Ben Hutton, Jared McCann, Hunter Shinkaruk and Jake Virtanen. Seriously, who saw that coming? It’s not as if these players are just filling out roster spots, either. Vancouver made changes to its scouting department last summer, but those who are gone did not leave the cupboard bare. GM Jim Benning has a good eye, too. In 2014, he grabbed Russian defenceman Nikita Tryamkin 66th overall. “I was like, ‘Who?’” one North American-based scout laughed last week. “Now, I’ve seen him. He’s going to be a player.” The team hopes he joins AHL Utica after the KHL season. The most fascinating thing to watch will be which veterans stay. There’s zero interest in ever moving the Sedins; the hope is they retire as Canucks. Word is the club plans to reach out to its potential UFAs in the new year to gauge things. And, it sure sounds like the organization believes Jacob Markstrom is a future number one.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-try-bigger-nets-in-the-all-star-game/

 

[Trelane]

from elliott friedman, the only guy in the world who is both team gillis and team benning:



http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-try-bigger-nets-in-the-all-star-game/

A reasonable enough take, though a little on the optimistic side regarding Benning's drafting eye. Wait and see. I'd settle for one of Pedan or Tryamkin becoming regulars. Also if they see Markstrom as ever becoming a number one it's high time to start playing him more. Should be starting at a rate of 1:2 to Miller's for the balance of this year and closer to split duties the one after.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i for one am not unpetty enough not to note that kesler, nick ritchie, and vatanen all got points against us last night.

 

[arttk]

i for one am not unpetty enough not to note that kesler, nick ritchie, and vatanen all got points against us last night.

I hate to say it but Ritchie looked a lot better against us than Virtanen against any team this season.

And yeah, he does look like Big country on skates.