OT: Canadian Tennis

[Drivesaitl]

This has to be a huge blow for Novak. The one thing he doesn’t have was within his grasp and he couldn’t grab onto it. Taken him a lifetime to get that close to a Grand Slam and it’s unlikely he’ll get that close again at his age.

Gonna disagree here. No men have done it in the modern era. Its been 52years, nobody has done it, nobody else even close to doing it among his contemporaries.

Its likely that nobody ever does it again and it only was done in an era when there were less high level players competing and pushing and capable of winning.

This certainly isn't any kind of Djokovic failure, he's just had one of the most dominating Tennis years ever in the annals of the game.

 

[Canovin]

How’s that then? He seems to be arguing that women are capable of more. You seem to be arguing that they will pass out.

His posts were, the quality of women tennis is low. Then proceed to say Emma and Leylah would not be the finals match up if the other women were in better shape and went on to ask, why isn't there a 5 set match like the men. Then he went on with men is stronger is than women like that even needed to be brought up. I don't understand he why even asked for a 5 set match if he already came to conclusion with the quality of women tennis being low. Sorry I might have misread it but that's what I understood it as

 

[Oilhawks]

His posts were, the quality of women tennis is low. Then proceed to say Emma and Leylah would not be the finals match up if the other women were in better shape and went on to ask, why isn't there a 5 set match like the men. Then he went on with men is stronger is than women like that even needed to be brought up. I don't understand he why even asked for a 5 set match if he already came to conclusion with the quality of women tennis being low. Sorry I might have misread it but that's what I understood it as

I must not have been clear.

It was not to denigrate either player or their accomplishments. All I meant by that is it’s possible that there would have been quite a different outcome if they were playing best of 5s.
In much the same way that men’s tennis results would likely look a lot different with best of 3s. I’m suggesting they should either both be best of 3 or best of 5.

This article does a much better job of articulating what I was trying to (and does a great job of breaking down the history and when women’s tennis had 5 sets)

Under the Spotlight: Should female tennis players contest five sets?

I like how “complete” and marathon 5 sets feel, and it feels like (not sure on statistics) that a player can come back a lot easier after dropping a first set (Djokovic failed to do so for the first time in what felt like a long time). I’d like to see that with women’s tennis. I think it’s likelier that men’s tennis goes to 3 sets like non slams, but that’s not at all likely either.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I must not have been clear.

It was not to denigrate either player or their accomplishments. All I meant by that is it’s possible that there would have been quite a different outcome if they were playing best of 5s.
In much the same way that men’s tennis results would likely look a lot different with best of 3s. I’m suggesting they should either both be best of 3 or best of 5.

This article does a much better job of articulating what I was trying to (and does a great job of breaking down the history and when women’s tennis had 5 sets)

Under the Spotlight: Should female tennis players contest five sets?

I like how “complete” and marathon 5 sets feel, and it feels like (not sure on statistics) that a player can come back a lot easier after dropping a first set (Djokovic failed to do so for the first time in what felt like a long time). I’d like to see that with women’s tennis. I think it’s likelier that men’s tennis goes to 3 sets like non slams, but that’s not at all likely either.

Yep.

Not sure if you saw this article I linked on previous page.

Why Women Don’t Play Best-Of-Five Matches At Grand Slams – ThinkProgress

Again the title is misleading as one cannot discern why. The article as well goes into how often through history that Women have played 5 sets in slams, and women are more conditioned physically now than ever, with all of todays modern training at their disposal and diet, support etc.

Its interesting that we're posting here as hockey fans and you shouldn't have to state the bolded. 7 game playoff series exist because they are considered more determinative than say 5 game series or best of 3 game series.

Obviously 5 sets tell more than 3 sets. I mean there could be some proviso. Say if the first sets are knockouts, like 6-0, 6-0 there is no point playing a third, kind of a mercy rule. But almost anybody in Tennis is saying that in womens play there should be 5 sets in Slams at least in quarterfinals on.

So I don't really know why the arguments against it. Women can play 5 sets, and have, and should. Only the viewers, sponsors, networks are being denied more tennis. It seems incredibly silly at this time of pandemic and huge potential viewing audiences not to play 5 sets.

ps Bobby Riggs was age 55 in the "historic" match with Billy Jean King, who was an active WTA player, in prime, age 28. Riggs had been retired from Tennis for 20yrs. Only stated because the article posits a pretty silly view on the match.

 

[Canovin]

Yep.

Not sure if you saw this article I linked on previous page.

Why Women Don’t Play Best-Of-Five Matches At Grand Slams – ThinkProgress

Again the title is misleading as one cannot discern why. The article as well goes into how often through history that Women have played 5 sets in slams, and women are more conditioned physically now than ever, with all of todays modern training at their disposal and diet, support etc.

Its interesting that we're posting here as hockey fans and you shouldn't have to state the bolded. 7 game playoff series exist because they are considered more determinative than say 5 game series or best of 3 game series.

Obviously 5 sets tell more than 3 sets. I mean there could be some proviso. Say if the first sets are knockouts, like 6-0, 6-0 there is no point playing a third, kind of a mercy rule. But almost anybody in Tennis is saying that in womens play there should be 5 sets in Slams at least in quarterfinals on.

So I don't really know why the arguments against it. Women can play 5 sets, and have, and should. Only the viewers, sponsors, networks are being denied more tennis. It seems incredibly silly at this time of pandemic and huge potential viewing audiences not to play 5 sets.

ps Bobby Riggs was age 55 in the "historic" match with Billy Jean King, who was an active WTA player, in prime, age 28. Riggs had been retired from Tennis for 20yrs. Only stated because the article posits a pretty silly view on the match.

The courts and balls were much faster before. It wasn't until Federer started dominating to the point they had to slow down the courts and balls to keep the rally longer which benefitted the grinders(Nadal, Djokovic). Grass courts were super fast back then. Now it's almost as slow as clay court. Back then we saw a lot more of the 1-2 punch and the match would end in 30 mins. It make senses to have 5 sets when the players can put away the match in short time.
Now that the matches are becoming longer because of the long rallies, it's too exhausting to have a 5 set matches for women. Health and safety were probably taken into consideration when it came to women playing 5 set matches.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The courts and balls were much faster before. It wasn't until Federer started dominating to the point they had to slow down the courts and balls to keep the rally longer which benefitted the grinders(Nadal, Djokovic). Grass courts were super fast back then. Now it's almost as slow as clay court. Back then we saw a lot more of the 1-2 punch and the match would end in 30 mins. It make senses to have 5 sets when the players can put away the match in short time.
When the matches are becoming longer because of the long rallies, it's too exhausting to have a 5 set matches for women. Health and safety were probably taken into consideration when it came to women playing 5 set matches.

Carbon Graphite changed things pretty much as well. Can speak personally, thats even more of a factor. More than any quality of court Carbon Graphite changed the game for myself and countless players. Suddenly you had so much more control over the ball, much more of a sweet spot, and because of that you could hit velocity and spin shots like crazy. Trying to do the same with wooden racquets far more difficult.

Disagree with your premise in anycase. The bolded is entirely lacking substantiation. Women do quite well at a multitude of endurance events that are harder than Tennis.

There is no reason to limit women to contrived limits that are well beneath their endurance. Your suggestions that the bolded is the reason, its bizarre, and a worse look than what you accused others of yesterday.

For sure Women can compete well in endurance events. Their physiology may even favor it in some way.

The Longer the Race, the Stronger We Get | Outside Online

 

[Canovin]

Carbon Graphite changed things pretty much as well. Can speak personally, thats even more of a factor. More than any quality of court Carbon Graphite changed the game for myself and countless players. Suddenly you had so much more control over the ball, much more of a sweet spot, and because of that you could hit velocity and spin shots like crazy. Trying to do the same with wooden racquets far more difficult.

Disagree with your premise in anycase. The bolded is entirely lacking substantiation. Women do quite well at a multitude of endurance events that are harder than Tennis.

There is no reason to limit women to contrived limits that are well beneath their endurance. Your suggestions that the bolded is the reason, its bizarre, and a worse look than what you accused others of yesterday.

For sure Women can compete well in endurance events. Their physiology may even favor it in some way.

The Longer the Race, the Stronger We Get | Outside Online

Carbon Graphite has helped with control? I would think it's the head size and stiffness of the racket. I would think carbon graphite provides good feel and power. The open string pattern helps with top spin.

The head size were like 90 sq.in like 20 years ago and earlier. Stiff and heavy as heck which the players liked because it provided control. The players didn't need easy access to power because they can generate power on their own and the court were much faster then. These days, we have players playing with much bigger head size and more flex. Look at Emma Raducanu. She plays with the Steam BLX 100 painted as the Blade 98. It's 100 sq. in with a flex rating of 65 RA. Massive sweetspot with easy power and less control(ironic cause she plays with so much precision).

I don't disagree with you. I want 5 set matches for women as well. But I can see why there's no 5 set matches even for Slams. Too exhausting and it just promotes women taking PEDs which I'm against.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Carbon Graphite has helped with control? I would think it's the head size and stiffness of the racket. I would think carbon graphite provides good feel and power. The open string pattern helps with top spin.

The head size were like 90 sq.in like 20 years ago and earlier. Stiff and heavy as heck which the players liked because it provided control. The players didn't need easy access to power because they can generate power on their own and the court were much faster then. These days, we have players playing with much bigger head size and more flex. Look at Emma Raducanu. She plays with the Steam BLX 100 painted as the Blade 98. It's 100 sq. in with a flex rating of 65 RA. Massive sweetspot with easy power and less control(ironic cause she plays with so much precision).

I don't disagree with you. I want 5 set matches for women as well. But I can see why there's no 5 set matches even for Slams. Too exhausting and it just promotes women taking PEDs which I'm against.

On a typical less expensive wooden racquet the sweet spot and consistency of performance across different shots was lower. With Carbon Graphite its standard consistency across the racquet, there isn't the strength inconsistencies and vagaries you get with any wooden racquet. Thus you'd see pros back in the day chucking wooden racquets as much as hockey players would chuck sticks they didn't like. Every wooden stick and racquet is slightly different, different feel. Wood being a natural product it isn't engineered.. Even with laminated layers, still subject to inconsistency. Carbon graphite meant that any punter could have a reasonably high quality racquet that performed consistently and across several shots. The larger sweet spot of course meaning that more of your shots are in the zone, far less are misshots like with a wooden racquet where anything but the sweet spot hit is going anywhere.

As to the bolded you're wrong, and thats already been proven by several respondents. Your opinion is only your opinion. Women do not need to take performance enhancements to compete in endurance.

 

[Canovin]

On a typical less expensive wooden racquet the sweet spot and consistency of performance across different shots was lower. With Carbon Graphite its standard consistency across the racquet, there isn't the strength inconsistencies and vagaries you get with any wooden racquet. Thus you'd see pros back in the day chucking wooden racquets as much as hockey players would chuck sticks they didn't like. Every wooden stick and racquet is slightly different, different feel. Wood being a natural product it isn't engineered.. Even with laminated layers, still subject to inconsistency. Carbon graphite meant that any punter could have a reasonably high quality racquet that performed consistently and across several shots. The larger sweet spot of course meaning that more of your shots are in the zone, far less are misshots like with a wooden racquet where anything but the sweet spot hit is going anywhere.

As to the bolded you're wrong, and thats already been proven by several respondents. Your opinion is only your opinion. Women do not need to take performance enhancements to compete in endurance.

Maria Sharapova on failing that drug test: ‘I felt trapped, tricked’

 

[Drivesaitl]

Maria Sharapova on failing that drug test: ‘I felt trapped, tricked’

So an outlier instance means women have to take performance enhancements? How is that rebuttal.

I'm not understanding your stance on this and how its not adjusting to the information that has already been provided. Seems you're just moving goal posts. I wouldn't be responding to any of this except for your unwarranted attack on another poster just yesterday. As that poster and others have stated its ironic that its YOU that feels that women are "too exhausted" to play 5 sets and there would be health reasons why they cannot. Its a bogus view.

 

[Canovin]

So an outlier instance means women have to take performance enhancements? How is that rebuttal.

I'm not understanding your stance on this and how its not adjusting to the information that has already been provided. Seems you're just moving goal posts. I wouldn't be responding to any of this except for your unwarranted attack on another poster just yesterday. As that poster and others have stated its ironic that its YOU that feels that women are "too exhausted" to play 5 sets and there would be health reasons why they cannot. Its a bogus view.

I just proved it to you, Maria Sharapova was one of tennis biggest star and you're using it an outlier? Are you seriously thinking all athletes playing at the highest level of sports are clean? Many athletes use PEDs and are still using it. They have never been caught.

Well ask yourself, why isn't there a 5 set match for tennis in today's game? What other reason is there other than it's too exhausting to go 5 sets? If it's so simple as you're simply stating it, then there would already been a 5 set match in today's game for women tennis. More sets, more viewership, more $$

Double standard. You're getting upset about my debate with another poster. I'm not the one who's here saying a woman needs to trim off some weight to compete

 

[Drivesaitl]

I just proved it to you, Maria Sharapova was one of tennis biggest star and you're using it an outlier? Are you seriously thinking all athletes playing at the highest level of sports are clean? Many athletes use PEDs and are still using it. They have never been caught.

Well ask yourself, why isn't there a 5 set match for tennis in today's game? What other reason is there other than it's too exhausting to go 5 sets? If it's so simple as you're simply stating it, then there would already been a 5 set match in today's game for women tennis.

Double standard. You're getting upset about my debate with another poster. I'm not the one who's here saying a woman needs to trim off some weight to compete

You proved nothing. You linked some meandering article 20pages long that is barely even connected with your latest moving posts argument. Fact of the matter is women can play 5 sets, quite readily, tour players could do it starting tomorrow, and this has occurred multiple times in the past. There is no real reason for them not to. I think you even agree with that premise but are stuck in your position now, of trying to argue different.

Arguing that something can't happen because it isn't currently occurring is a circular construct. In almost any other endeavor women are competing in endurance sports that involve a hell of a lot more endurance and extented duration than a womens 5 set match would.

Not gonna bother with your last strawman reply.

Anyway, enough of this.

 

[Canovin]

You proved nothing. You linked some meandering article 20pages long that is barely even connected with your latest moving posts argument. Fact of the matter is women can play 5 sets, quite readily, tour players could do it starting tomorrow, and this has occurred multiple times in the past. There is no real reason for them not to. I think you even agree with that premise but are stuck in your position now, of trying to argue different.

Arguing that something can't happen because it isn't currently occurring is a circular construct. In almost any other endeavor women are competing in endurance sports that involve a hell of a lot more endurance and extented duration than a womens 5 set match would.

Not gonna bother with your last strawman reply.

Anyway, enough of this.

Female tour players can play 5 sets starting tomorrow. Like who? The only events that plays up to 5 sets are the men Grand Slams. Every where else is 3 sets. Maybe you should ask the players if they want to play a 5 set match because most of them don't want to. It's physically taxing and takes awhile for their body to recuperate.

End of discussion

 

[Drivesaitl]

Female tour players can play 5 sets starting tomorrow. Like who? The only events that plays up to 5 sets are the men Grand Slams. Every where else is 3 sets. Maybe you should ask the players if they want to play a 5 set match because most of them don't want to. It's physically taxing and takes awhile for their body to recuperate.

End of discussion

Its obvious what I mean. Could as in they would have the endurance for it. Seeing that you want to do this response, again looks like we're done.

Many of the women top players on record as being agreeable to 5 games for Grand Slams, or at least later rounds, as I said earlier in the discussion. Two of the articles cited in the thread already have that information, which not surprisingly you didn't read.

 

[Canovin]

Its obvious what I mean. Could as in they would have the endurance for it. Seeing that you want to do this response, again looks like we're done.

Many of the women top players on record as being agreeable to 5 games for Grand Slams, or at least later rounds, as I said earlier in the discussion. Two of the articles cited in the thread already have that information, which not surprisingly you didn't read.

"And finally, do female players even want to play best-of-five matches? The answer is more than likely no. As much as many would jump at the opportunity to be on the same footing as male players, the tennis circuit is already a tough grind. Do they really want to add more chances of injury to that, and less chance of recovery between games?"
Under the Spotlight: Should female tennis players contest five sets?

This is a quote I got from the site OilHawks provided. You obviously did not read it

 

[Drivesaitl]

"And finally, do female players even want to play best-of-five matches? The answer is more than likely no. As much as many would jump at the opportunity to be on the same footing as male players, the tennis circuit is already a tough grind. Do they really want to add more chances of injury to that, and less chance of recovery between games?"
Under the Spotlight: Should female tennis players contest five sets?

This is a quote I got from the site OilHawks provided. You obviously did not read it

Again the article I linked;

Why Women Don’t Play Best-Of-Five Matches At Grand Slams – ThinkProgress

Expands that several times in history, including recently women players have wanted and lobbied to have 5 set grand slams just like the men. They just aren't being listened to for some reason. Read the article. Its a better article.

“Our players have always said that they are willing to play three of five sets,” former WTA CEO Stacey Allaster told the National Post in 2011. “The Grand Slams decide the format at their events and to date each Grand Slam has opted for the women to play two of three sets.”
“We women are strong, ready, willing and able,” Serena said in 2014. “All the women players have agreed to it, but it’s not what [the Grand Slam tournaments] want at this time.”

 

[rboomercat90]

Gonna disagree here. No men have done it in the modern era. Its been 52years, nobody has done it, nobody else even close to doing it among his contemporaries.

Its likely that nobody ever does it again and it only was done in an era when there were less high level players competing and pushing and capable of winning.

This certainly isn't any kind of Djokovic failure, he's just had one of the most dominating Tennis years ever in the annals of the game.

I wasn’t trying to suggest it was any kind of failure for him. I think he’s proven to be the best of all time. I was just alluding to the disappointment he must feel coming so close to doing something that’s so difficult to do. He likely never gets the opportunity again.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I wasn’t trying to suggest it was any kind of failure for him. I think he’s proven to be the best of all time. I was just alluding to the disappointment he must feel coming so close to doing something that’s so difficult to do. He likely never gets the opportunity again.

Got the wrong idea with how you worded it. Thanks for elaborating. Agreed a person could be disappointed. I think the bigger thing for him would be total Majors victories.