Can Crosby Surpass Gretzky With A Superior Finish Than Wayne Had to His Career?

[Killion]

I prefer to post this on the HoH board because I think there's less of a chance the, "Gretzky would score maybe 60 points today" crowd will show up.

Not only do I think that the idea of the ongoing significant evolution of the NHL is exaggerated (at least when applied to elite talent), I think it's fairly irrelevant when it comes to discussions such as this one.

First of all, I think greatness can really only be measured by transcendence. I've read a lot of Nietzsche's works and I think he was on the right track with his theory of the Ubermensh (or "Overman").

A human who is truly great is one who overcomes the apparent barriers, limitations and restrictions of his time, towering above his contemporaries and establishing a lofty standard of greatness.

The greatest is not necessarily the one who has the most modern education, training, equipment or technology; such a person may be more evolved than a previous great, but merely being in a position to benefit from such advantages does not make one great. The greatest is the one who catapults the furthest above his contemporaries, establishing news standards of excellence and inspiring and driving forth further evolution.

In hockey, the man who has transcendent the forward position more than any other is Wayne Gretzky.

During his first eight years in the NHL - his peak - he consistently blew away his competitors in the scoring race and seized award after award, breaking records and winning Championships along the way...

He slowed down somewhat after year eight but was still extremely transcendent compared to everyone but Mario Lemieux.

After a dozen years, he began appearing more human but still won a scoring Title in 1994 and finished in the top five for points in 1997 and 1998.


The greatest player of the current generation of NHL'ers has consistently been among the very best of his time but has not dominated the scoring race the way Gretzky did.

After twelve years, he is well behind Gretzky in terms of in-season scoring dominance against the field...

Some have speculated that Crosby can continue playing at a very high level for several more seasons - if not for the majority of the remainder of his career...

The question is: If his last eight seasons are superior to Gretzky's, can he be placed higher on a list of all-time greats even if he never reaches Gretzky's peak level of dominance or transcendence?

Realistically, he is not going to be outscoring Connor McDavid or other young superstars in his mid 30s, but if he can continue finishing in the top three to five in the scoring race year after year while being a strong two-way presence and a difference-maker in the playoffs, can he negate the gap that exists between him and Gretzky after twelve seasons in the NHL?

Would winning two or three more scoring Titles and coming close to leading the League in points a few times while finishing high in the Selke-race multiple times be enough to move him close to Gretzky after 16 seasons to 18 seasons?



I don't think he can truly surpass Gretzky without coming closer to matching his dominance of the rest of the field in the scoring race than he has done thus far (even including 2014).

With a young Connor McDavid now a rival, this task seems implausible.



Gretzky's margins of victory in the NHL race:


1981: 29 points
1982: 65 points
1983: 62 points
1984: 79 points
1985: 73 points
1986: 74 points
1987: 75 points
1991: 32 points

Son..... Ive let this unwind for 14 tortuous pages.... indulged your intellectual curiosity and y'know what?.... LOSER..... Knew it about 5 words into your opening gambit. So............ Do I start a Poll? Do we CLOSE this lame assed thread or continue to entertain such nonsense that not only denigrates Wayne Gretzky but so too slanders & disrespects Sydney in setting a bar for the Lad that no one, NO ONE can clear?...

 

[GlitchMarner]

Son..... Ive let this unwind for 14 tortuous pages.... indulged your intellectual curiosity and y'know what?.... LOSER..... Knew it about 5 words into your opening gambit. So............ Do I start a Poll? Do we CLOSE this lame assed thread or continue to entertain such nonsense that not only denigrates Wayne Gretzky but so too slanders & disrespects Sydney in setting a bar for the Lad that no one, NO ONE can clear?...

You can close the thread if you'd like to.

I started it months ago and it was bumped in January.

 

[daver]

Considering he has only one season in career under a ppg and was at 1.20 ppg that year, it is not a big stretch.

That said Crosby drought in somewhat large sample size of games this season show that it is dangerous to assume for when he extrapole how he would have done in 2010-2011 for example is only really safe Ross without injuries is 12-13 needing 5 points in 13 games , a low shot percentage when on ice could always have happened, Malkin could have had only 15 points in the 20 games he would have played in a 80 games season (and 80 is a lot of game for Malkin)

But the point still stand, an Art Ross win and an art Ross margin level of impressiveness is 100% relative to who you beat, being first at something is only as good as who is second, third, etc...

Let's put it this way. Is a 20% Art Ross win representative of Crosby talent level relative to the league? At his peak level of performance from 2010 to 2013, which assumes a reasonable pace out of his partial seasons (the exact same premise that Casanova wants to apply to Malkin), I would say it is.

So again, we can view Crosby's 20% Art Ross with no context or we can apply context and still come away with the same dominant Art Ross win.

And again, neither view puts him closer to Wayne than he already is, which is not very close.

 

[NoMessi]

You aren't assuming that Malkin gets more than 87 points if you award him a full season?

I assume that either Stamkos, Malkin, Hall, Kane or Tavares hit more than 87 points. Like they paced for before injuries or have reached other times in the past.

 

[daver]

I assume that either Stamkos, Malkin, Hall, Kane or Tavares hit more than 87 points. Like they paced for before injuries or have reached other times in the past.

What do assume Crosby's point totals to be in 2010/11 and 2013?

As in (using your quote),

"Crosby wouldn't have a 20% Art Ross win in 13/14 if not for injuries to some of his competition .......but then it would be unfair to not recognize that he may have one or two 20% plus wins in 2010/11 and 2013 if not for injuries when we apply the exact same criteria of pacing out his PPG or looking at point totals reached in the past"

 

[MadLuke]

Is a 20% Art Ross win representative of Crosby talent level relative to the league? At his peak level of performance from 2010 to 2013, which assumes a reasonable pace out of his partial seasons

Not out of line at all that is true:
NHL.com - Stats
NHL.com - Stats

He was producing at 20% or more than the rest on that period of time, 40% more than the elite of that time on is partial season pace.

But on any giving year you usually have to beat one of other good player that was having a good and lucky year that year, not just is average pace but is peak.

 

[MadLuke]

but then it would be unfair to not recognize that he may have one or two 20% plus wins in 2010/11 and 2013 if not for injuries when we apply the exact same criteria of pacing out his PPG or looking at point totals reached in the past

I would think pretty much everyone recognize that Crosby may have won 2 dominant Art Ross those seasons baring injuries, no ?

 

[daver]

I would think pretty much everyone recognize that Crosby may have won 2 dominant Art Ross those seasons baring injuries, no ?

Except the poster who I responded to.