Calgary city council approves arena deal (UPD: new deal upcoming?)

[Dirty Old Man]

I miss strange stuff like this in old arenas. Mind you, I would never choose to build one that way. But finding those little nooks and crannies was a real joy back in the day… made the building feel sort of like a weird old house with secret passages.

Thing is, when I went to Calgary I also went to Edmonton, in the old barn, and it was even moreso..."70s"... I just went to Edmonton again last week, and the experience of the city - *completely* different now. Edmonton is a nice place, it just didn't get a chance to show it to me 8 years ago.

(and just for you tarheel - a weird coincidence: the game in 2014 was Draisaitl's first goal, a 6-3 win over Carolina in October... I go again 8 years later, Draisaitl scores in a 6-4 win over Carolina in October)

 

[Mike Jones]

Sure. And where is that money going to come from for this new arena?

I'll let you figure it out. It's been the connecting thread for more or less all your posts on this subject.

The city can pay for a post-Flames arena with revenues from events. Revenues we don't have to turn over to a pathologically greedy NHL franchise.

I don't know why people are so desperate to prove that the city needs the Flames. We don't. The money we spend on the Flames can easily be spent somewhere else.

If they want to stay they know what to do.

 

[mouser]

Fair enough. But I do like the idea of using KC as an example of a city and arena management able to send a message to leagues like the NHL and NBA.

"Play by our rules or we'll find a way to live without you"

We need a mayor and council with the spine to send that message.

That's all fine and dandy except the T-Mobile Center isn't generating a profit, at least not directly. Yes, the arena itself is turning an operational profit of a $1-2m/year, but it's not enough to cover the $14m/year debt service on the arena construction bonds.

Kansas City uses the same explanations that every other city does to justify an arena with a pro sports team. Indirect economic impact from the arena.

 

[Mike Jones]

That's all fine and dandy except the T-Mobile Center isn't generating a profit, at least not directly. Yes, the arena itself is turning an operational profit of a $1-2m/year, but it's not enough to cover the $14m/year debt service on the arena construction bonds.

Kansas City uses the same explanations that every other city does to justify an arena with a pro sports team. Indirect economic impact from the arena.

At least they have on operating surplus. The Flames want all revenues including concessions so there goes the operating revenue for a city owned arena.

The bottom line is that the Flames need us and our money more than we need the Flames. Period.

 

[McRpro]

That's crazy... how did they not consider this when they built the thing!?

Funny enough, Little Caesars Arena in Detroit has that problem in the nose bleed section too. There's a suspended walkway/MVP seating area that almost completely obstructs the scoreboard.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Thing is, when I went to Calgary I also went to Edmonton, in the old barn, and it was even moreso..."70s"... I just went to Edmonton again last week, and the experience of the city - *completely* different now. Edmonton is a nice place, it just didn't get a chance to show it to me 8 years ago.

(and just for you tarheel - a weird coincidence: the game in 2014 was Draisaitl's first goal, a 6-3 win over Carolina in October... I go again 8 years later, Draisaitl scores in a 6-4 win over Carolina in October)

Don’t go to any more games there, please

 

[TheLegend]

All this posturing about arenas everywhere and I’ve yet to see what these new talks between the Flames and Calgary involve.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Knights2017]

Murray Edwards wants as much money from Calgary and the province as he can get.. up front.

If Calgary ever gets a new rink, expect lump sum's of public cash or it won't happen,

 

[Mike Jones]

Murray Edwards wants as much money from Calgary and the province as he can get.. up front.

If Calgary ever gets a new rink, expect lump sum's of public cash or it won't happen,

Edwards wants it and most of our so-called leaders are desperate to give it to him but he definitely shouldn't get his way. Never give in to a child throwing a tantrum.

But he will get everything he wants because all the wrong people are in charge and they are desperate to give the Flames money while starving our other city services like fire and police departments. It is how things work in Calgary.

As usual, the average taxpayer is stuck subsidizing the infantile demands of the rich.

 

[MeHateHe]

Thing is, when I went to Calgary I also went to Edmonton, in the old barn, and it was even moreso..."70s"... I just went to Edmonton again last week, and the experience of the city - *completely* different now. Edmonton is a nice place, it just didn't get a chance to show it to me 8 years ago.

(and just for you tarheel - a weird coincidence: the game in 2014 was Draisaitl's first goal, a 6-3 win over Carolina in October... I go again 8 years later, Draisaitl scores in a 6-4 win over Carolina in October)

The last few times I went to Edmonton in the summer, we stayed right downtown and for all the talk about how the new arena revitalized downtown, I gotta say, walking around the Ice District in the early evening on a weekend was eerie: no traffic, little walking traffic, not much happening in the bars and restaurants that we went to. Maybe it was the wrong weekend? Maybe Edmonton is like Paris: no one goes there in August? Whyte Avenue was busy, but there was nothing happening where we were.

All of this is to say that the argument that an arena is a magnet that draws people downtown - that even when there are no events occurring in the arena, the area takes on a life of its own. - is maybe not always a functional argument.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Murray Edwards wants as much money from Calgary and the province as he can get.. up front.

If Calgary ever gets a new rink, expect lump sum's of public cash or it won't happen,

Based on what the Premier said (she's a top level nut job but I digress) I think they go with the exact same deal that was proposed last year and that the province will cover the extra costs that were from covid and supply chain issues etc. that weren't really considered in the initial budget.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The last few times I went to Edmonton in the summer, we stayed right downtown and for all the talk about how the new arena revitalized downtown, I gotta say, walking around the Ice District in the early evening on a weekend was eerie: no traffic, little walking traffic, not much happening in the bars and restaurants that we went to. Maybe it was the wrong weekend? Maybe Edmonton is like Paris: no one goes there in August? Whyte Avenue was busy, but there was nothing happening where we were.

All of this is to say that the argument that an arena is a magnet that draws people downtown - that even when there are no events occurring in the arena, the area takes on a life of its own. - is maybe not always a functional argument.

So the arena did revitalize that part of Edmonton to the extent that new condos and several restaurants were built in the area that didn't exist there before. That part is better then it was before.

Edmonton was also making respectable progress at trying to get people to live downtown, - but then Covid hit and downtown took several steps backwards.

So yes you're right - right now if you want an area with lots of walking traffic, bars and restaurants - Whyte Ave is the place to go. Staying downtown at the Marriott or something is nice in that it's a new luxury hotel, several restaurants nearby - but for entertainment you'll want to go somewhere else.

All this posturing about arenas everywhere and I’ve yet to see what these new talks between the Flames and Calgary involve.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That is almost certainly a good thing (or at least good if you want a new arena built).

If the parties start exchanging proposals in public it's because the negotiations in private have broken down.

 

[MeHateHe]

So the arena did revitalize that part of Edmonton to the extent that new condos and several restaurants were built in the area that didn't exist there before. That part is better then it was before.

Edmonton was also making respectable progress at trying to get people to live downtown, - but then Covid hit and downtown took several steps backwards.

I was there in 2017 and again in 2019. Could roll a bowling ball down the street without damaging any 1986 Honda Civics. So, pre-COVID. I mean, Whyte Ave has always been the more interesting place, but downtown was supposed to become this newly vibrant place as a result of moving the arena from the Northlands to downtown.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I was there in 2017 and again in 2019. Could roll a bowling ball down the street without damaging any 1986 Honda Civics. So, pre-COVID. I mean, Whyte Ave has always been the more interesting place, but downtown was supposed to become this newly vibrant place as a result of moving the arena from the Northlands to downtown.

So it depends where specifically you are in downtown Edmonton. Whee the city has had the most success was along 104 st, which runs alongside the ICE district to the south. There are a bunch of restaurants and lounges.

But directly in front of Rogers Place? Yeah absolutely nothing. And lots of other areas downtown have absolutely nothing.

And even 104 St has nowhere near the foot traffic that Whyte Ave does.

Whether it was worth the money I'll leave to others. But Rogers Place has had an effect on downtown Edmonton.

 

[Mike Jones]

The last few times I went to Edmonton in the summer, we stayed right downtown and for all the talk about how the new arena revitalized downtown, I gotta say, walking around the Ice District in the early evening on a weekend was eerie: no traffic, little walking traffic, not much happening in the bars and restaurants that we went to. Maybe it was the wrong weekend? Maybe Edmonton is like Paris: no one goes there in August? Whyte Avenue was busy, but there was nothing happening where we were.

All of this is to say that the argument that an arena is a magnet that draws people downtown - that even when there are no events occurring in the arena, the area takes on a life of its own. - is maybe not always a functional argument.

Locals tell me the same thing. There has been some development but not as much as hoped for or promised. This is why we have every right to be skeptical of promises made by the salespeople who want cities to hand over hundreds of millions in free tax money.

Whether it was worth the money I'll leave to others. But Rogers Place has had an effect on downtown Edmonton.

One good thing about the Edmonton project is the 6% ticket tax and that, alone, could help the city recover much, if not most of its investment. One of the terminal defects of the last arena deal here in Calgary was a ticket tax that was only 2%. This is one of the main reasons why I say that there's no way we were going to recover our investment under those conditions.

 

[DaGap]

Locals tell me the same thing. There has been some development but not as much as hoped for or promised. This is why we have every right to be skeptical of promises made by the salespeople who want cities to hand over hundreds of millions in free tax money.


One good thing about the Edmonton project is the 6% ticket tax and that, alone, could help the city recover much, if not most of its investment. One of the terminal defects of the last arena deal here in Calgary was a ticket tax that was only 2%. This is one of the main reasons why I say that there's no way we were going to recover our investment under those conditions.

Your locals are idiots. 2.5 billion in investments happen in the Ice district right after the arena deal was in place

 

[Mike Jones]

Your locals are idiots. 2.5 billion in investments happen in the Ice district right after the arena deal was in place

The people I talk to are long time residents of Edmonton and Oilers fans who attend games so I trust their judgment. If they say it's underwhelming and lacking I believe them.

 

[DaGap]

The people I talk to are long time residents of Edmonton and Oilers fans who attend games so I trust their judgment. If they say it's underwhelming and lacking I believe them.

LOL Ask Garth Brooks how bad it was oh and the City and the 43 million dollars they collected during his 1 week concert

 

[Mike Jones]

LOL Ask Garth Brooks how bad it was oh and the City and the 43 million dollars they collected during his 1 week concert

Your response doesn't address the lack of development around the arena.

 

[DaGap]

The Capital City Downtown Community Revitalization Levy was approved in 2014 and commenced in 2015. By the end of 2021, the construction of Rogers Place and other downtown catalyst projects have spurred more than $4.5 billion in new development that is complete or under construction.

The current projections for the Levy in the medium scenario have increased by $11 million from a
year ago to $764 million. This is driven by additional development activity, counteracted by
ongoing declines in commercial properties resulting from the COVID-19 pandemic.

 

[Mike Jones]

The Capital City Downtown Community Revitalization Levy was approved in 2014 and commenced in 2015. By the end of 2021, the construction of Rogers Place and other downtown catalyst projects have spurred more than $4.5 billion in new development that is complete or under construction.

The current projections for the Levy in the medium scenario have increased by $11 million from a
year ago to $764 million. This is driven by additional development activity, counteracted by
ongoing declines in commercial properties resulting from the COVID-19 pandemic.

There's still a long way to go and we'll see if the area is eventually developed to a point where it meets expectations.

It is certainly underwhelming enough that Calgarians should be skeptical of all the hot air promises being made about the looming arena disaster down here.

 

[DaGap]

There's still a long way to go and we'll see if the area is eventually developed to a point where it meets expectations.

It is certainly underwhelming enough that Calgarians should be skeptical of all the hot air promises being made about the looming arena disaster down here.

Ah yes 4.5 Billion is so underwhelming

 

[Mike Jones]

Ah yes 4.5 Billion is so underwhelming

That's a drop in the bucket in this day and age. A lot more is needed before this turkey flies.

 

[Oil Gauge]

The last few times I went to Edmonton in the summer, we stayed right downtown and for all the talk about how the new arena revitalized downtown, I gotta say, walking around the Ice District in the early evening on a weekend was eerie: no traffic, little walking traffic, not much happening in the bars and restaurants that we went to. Maybe it was the wrong weekend? Maybe Edmonton is like Paris: no one goes there in August? Whyte Avenue was busy, but there was nothing happening where we were.

All of this is to say that the argument that an arena is a magnet that draws people downtown - that even when there are no events occurring in the arena, the area takes on a life of its own. - is maybe not always a functional argument.

They just opened their first 2 restaurants in the Plaza this past month. The Oilers store just opened at the beginning of the season. Weed store, liquor store, grocery store all just opened within a few days to a few months. The Oilers just put in the skating rink for the 1st time this year. While other things went up at the same time as the arena no other entertainment really went up with it. At least not anything big enough to bring people into the area.

I'm pretty sure since that area is developed now the Oilers will be hosting many more events which will bring people into the are. We will see I guess.

 

[DaGap]

Since people don't seem to understand how long it takes to build stuff. Here's the latest for the Ice District

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