Calgary announces agreement for $1.2 billion dollar arena for the Flames

[LadyStanley]

Calgary arena discussed in today's podcast.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Are they using the same boring design that had for deal that Flames originally turned down?

 

[MMC]

Are they using the same boring design that had for deal that Flames originally turned down?

 

[MeHateHe]

If Saudi Arabia can nationalize an oil company us folks here in Alberta can ... provincialize a hockey team. Didn't a teachers union used to own the Leafs?

It was the teachers' pension plan that was (still is?) a significant shareholder in MLSE. Pension plans aren't really public money.

 

[KingAlfie11]

So everyone understands the politics of this, there is a provincial election starting in six days and the governing party will already lose most of the seats in Edmonton, so they don't care that Edmontonians will be PISSSSSSSSED about the fact that the Calgary arena is getting provincial money when the Edmonton arena got (checks calculator, pulls out wallet) $0.

Looks to me that the UCP and Ms. Smith are getting desperate to hold on to power by trying to buy Calgarians vote.

 

[S E P H]

Funny that taxpayers should be legitimately more of the owners of the Flames than the actual owners of the Flames who will get all the income from the team.

 

[Mike Jones]

It was the teachers' pension plan that was (still is?) a significant shareholder in MLSE. Pension plans aren't really public money.

Teachers are paid with tax dollars and teachers contribute some of that money to pensions. Ergo...

 

[MeHateHe]

Teachers are paid with tax dollars and teachers contribute some of that money to pensions. Ergo...

Yeah, but pension plans are not controlled by elected officials. They're overseen by investment managers.

Public money is money controlled directly by elected officials. It's not a fit analogy to say that ownership of anything by a pension fund is the same as nationalizing it. I mean, there are tens of billions (maybe hundreds of billions?) of dollars invested in all sorts of things by public service pension plans in this country. That doesn't mean their owned by the government.

 

[Mike Jones]

Yeah, but pension plans are not controlled by elected officials. They're overseen by investment managers.

Public money is money controlled directly by elected officials. It's not a fit analogy to say that ownership of anything by a pension fund is the same as nationalizing it. I mean, there are tens of billions (maybe hundreds of billions?) of dollars invested in all sorts of things by public service pension plans in this country. That doesn't mean their owned by the government.

You said the teachers' plan didn't rely on public money and that's exactly what goes into the Ontario plan that owned the Leafs.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

If Saudi Arabia can nationalize an oil company us folks here in Alberta can ... provincialize a hockey team. Didn't a teachers union used to own the Leafs?

Canada is absolute monarchy?

 

[ponder719]

You said the teachers' plan didn't rely on public money and that's exactly what goes into the Ontario plan that owned the Leafs.

Once that money is paid to a teacher (even deferred, as it is through a pension), it's not public money. It's that teacher's money.

 

[GKJ]

I think this all this maybe tied to an Olympic bid.

I think you’re not crazy because Vancouver dropped their bid for 2030, but that was done for a reason (because they’re aiming for 2034) and it’s really late to start getting serious about it now. The COC seems like they would sooner support the Vancouver bid, unless there’s a path to a joint bid.

Don’t see an NBA team being any sort of goal here and I don’t see how they’d be interested. There is Vegas and Seattle, yes, after that I don’t see them being much interested in any other markets with NHL teams, and given the size of the market, they’d be interested in Calgary even less.

 

[MeHateHe]

Once that money is paid to a teacher (even deferred, as it is through a pension), it's not public money. It's that teacher's money.

Yeah, if a bunch of employees from a car dealership put their money into a pension plan together, it isn't car dealership money.

 

[MeHateHe]

I think you’re not crazy because Vancouver dropped their bid for 2030, but that was done for a reason (because they’re aiming for 2034) and it’s really late to start getting serious about it now. The COC seems like they would sooner support the Vancouver bid, unless there’s a path to a joint bid.

No, that's not accurate. Vancouver dropped their 2030 bid because the provincial government said they wouldn't sign onto the bid. It's true that the three First Nations who wanted to bid were late to the game, but it was the province that put the kibosh on it.

B.C. won't support bid for 2030 Olympics, citing 'extraordinary expense'

Minister Lisa Beare told reporters the Olympics would cost $1.2 billion, and $1 billion in risk.

vancouversun.com

 

[StreetHawk]

I think you’re not crazy because Vancouver dropped their bid for 2030, but that was done for a reason (because they’re aiming for 2034) and it’s really late to start getting serious about it now. The COC seems like they would sooner support the Vancouver bid, unless there’s a path to a joint bid.

Don’t see an NBA team being any sort of goal here and I don’t see how they’d be interested. There is Vegas and Seattle, yes, after that I don’t see them being much interested in any other markets with NHL teams, and given the size of the market, they’d be interested in Calgary even less.

NBA expansion team would cost well over $3 billion USD based off the recent sales of the Bucks and Suns and what their valuations came in at. $3.5 Bill for Milwaukee and $4 Bill for Phx.

That's the range Seattle and LV would be looking at paying.

 

[GKJ]

No, that's not accurate. Vancouver dropped their 2030 bid because the provincial government said they wouldn't sign onto the bid. It's true that the three First Nations who wanted to bid were late to the game, but it was the province that put the kibosh on it.

B.C. won't support bid for 2030 Olympics, citing 'extraordinary expense'

Minister Lisa Beare told reporters the Olympics would cost $1.2 billion, and $1 billion in risk.

vancouversun.com

I still think they’ll aim for 2034 though.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I'll try not to get too political here, but it's hard. The governing UCP (right-wing) are facing an election next month. The NDP (left-wing) is neck and neck with the UCP.

The rural areas are a virtual lock for the UCP. And indeed Alberta was bizarre that we've had continued right-wing governments since 1935 with one exception - the NDP win in 2015. (actually argueable Alberta's right-wing governments go as far back as 1919, but it's hard to put the United Farmers of Alberta on a right-left spectrum).

So anyways: the rural areas will go heavily for the UCP. City of Edmonton will go heavily for the NDP. The biggest battleground is going to be in Calgary. When the NDP won in 2015 they won a bunch of seats in Calgary that went back to the UCP in 2019.

So this move is likely to piss Edmonton off (the province contributed nothing for Roger's Place), but then again the UCP has likely written Edmonton off. But will it gain votes in Calgary? Maybe. People DO like shiny new things, but hate the idea of giving money to billionaires.

Worth noting that with the huge increase in the price of oil the provincial budget was awash with money this past year. So we can definitely afford it - the question is more whether there are better uses for that money.

 

[MeHateHe]

I still think they’ll aim for 2034 though.

Possible. The work for 2034 will need to start by end of 2024 at the latest. Provincial government has said they need more economic certainty before committing the dollars and by then it's conceivable the economic fallout from the pandemic will be past. I know the three nations are keen to do it, and they have the political clout and savvy to get put everything in place.

I was just being clear that they didn't withdraw their bid because 2034 was a better option.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Any chance Calgary could pursue NBA expansion? Vancouver is bigger but if the NBA wants into Western Canada, this is obviously a much nicer venue?

I guess they could, but it isn't like Vancouver would be next in line... the only Seattle and Vegas are considered locks for the next teams

Perhaps decades from when Seattle and Vegas enter we could see Calgary and Vancouver into the Western Conference in a division with Denver, Portland, Seattle and Utah, putting Phoenix back in a division with Vegas and the California teams (as its stands now, the latter five teams should be the Pacific Division and the other MT/PT teams should be the Mountain Division). The Southeast Division would add Birmingham and Louisville, pushing Washington back into the Atlantic Division.

 

[GKJ]

Possible. The work for 2034 will need to start by end of 2024 at the latest. Provincial government has said they need more economic certainty before committing the dollars and by then it's conceivable the economic fallout from the pandemic will be past. I know the three nations are keen to do it, and they have the political clout and savvy to get put everything in place.

I was just being clear that they didn't withdraw their bid because 2034 was a better option.

Oh, no, you were right to correct. I just figure, you see abandoned bids, and I’m pretty sure Salt Lake is the heavy favorite, it’s a good bet to bail and try again because with existing facilities, they will get it. Not enough sites are able to.

 

[KevFu]

No disrespect to Calgary, and I'm as pro-expansion for every league more than the vast majority of fans (moar is better).

But I can't see Calgary being in the top 10 of NBA expansion city lists, or even in the top two Canadian choices.

You basically have three tiers of cities for possible NBA expansion:
1. Seattle, Las Vegas, San Diego, Montreal.
2. Tampa, St. Louis, Louisville, Austin, Columbus, Vancouver, Riverside (Riverside is debateable as 2nd tier or 3rd tier).
3. Riverside, Virginia Beach, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, etc. (And Calgary would be in "etc.")

 

[Yukon Joe]

I don't follow the NBA much (hardly at all really), but from a business perspective the question is the same as in hockey - is there an owner willing to pay for an expansion team? In the NBA the number being thrown around is $2.5 billion (if not more).

Murray Edwards (owner of the Flames) has an estimated net worth of $2.7 billion. Even if he were a huge basketball fan (no idea either way) he doesn't have the resources to pull that off.

Indeed, at those kind of prices, it's hard to see any Canadian expansion. I mean who has that much money and wants to invest it in basketball in Vancouver or Montreal?

 

[TheLegend]

Feel free to interpret this as you wish…

 

[Transplanted Caper]

Happy Flames fans get a new arena to watch their team. But public money for professional sports stadiums is an appalling level of grifting and incompetence. Steeling myself for it coming to Ottawa, soon.

 

[Brick City]

Excellent summary. This is vote buying - plain and simple.


If Smith loses there's no way the NDP is going to honour this agreement. They will move heaven and earth to get out of it.

Not familiar with the politics, but the question is how ironclad is this agreement? I can think of 2 examples in that US in which an outgoing city administration got a stadium (Washington Nationals) or arena (Devils) deal done before an election or transfer of power and there was nothing the next administration could do about it.

I remember that the incoming Newark mayor made a big deal about reopening the arena agreement with the Devils. I laughed at the time, guess the Devils' lawyers did too; ultimately the Devils gave the city slightly better terms to shut him up, but the arena moved forward as planned.