C Quinton Byfield (2020, 2nd, LAK) part III

[Mickey Marner]

If he ends up back in Jr. who do you guys think takes a crack at trading for him? London? Ottawa? Kitchener?

 

[Sun God Nika]

So whats the consensus on QB?

grows to be a Elite 6'6#1C 80-100pts a season,

middle 6'er who everyone says should use his size more and just has some ok 20 goal seasons here and there.

I know for a fact theres no way he goes beyond #3 though the way Pierre Dorion gushed about him

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Reading through some of those comments a little bit OT but I can't unsee the visual in Yakupov's scouting reports that said "he plays like he's always being chased by a swarm of bees" We need that guy to give us a colorful report on Byfield.

Really though at this point it's been 5-6 months since they've played meaningful hockey and that's why it's fair to wonder why people's draft rankings would change heavily. There's more time to look/review, but there's also more time to overthink. A lot of recent criticism of Byfield has been abstractions, and that's problematic. I want to know specifically how someone can call him overrated, bad IQ, etc.

 

[NyQuil]

Reading through some of those comments a little bit OT but I can't unsee the visual in Yakupov's scouting reports that said "he plays like he's always being chased by a swarm of bees" We need that guy to give us a colorful report on Byfield.

Really though at this point it's been 5-6 months since they've played meaningful hockey and that's why it's fair to wonder why people's draft rankings would change heavily. There's more time to look/review, but there's also more time to overthink. A lot of recent criticism of Byfield has been abstractions, and that's problematic. I want to know specifically how someone can call him overrated, bad IQ, etc.

Also, don't underestimate the need to offer a unique or controversial perspective.

Someone who puts Stutzle or Byfield at 5 or 8 is going to generate a lot of attention and/or clicks.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Also, don't underestimate the need to offer a unique or controversial perspective.

Someone who puts Stutzle or Byfield at 5 or 8 is going to generate a lot of attention and/or clicks.

Especially for you, us, and Detroit, who have all done nothing but sit on our hands since March and rearrange chess pieces shaped like Laf, Quinton, and Tim.

 

[NyQuil]

Especially for you, us, and Detroit, who have all done nothing but sit on our hands since March and rearrange chess pieces shaped like Laf, Quinton, and Tim.

Well, you basically have one decision between two guys (maybe three).

For our #5, right now, there's Raymond (lighting up the SEL), Sanderson (defence is how to win championships), Drysdale (best d-man in the draft), Rossi (he's got a motor and skill and we know what he can do), Askarov (one guy REALLY REALLY likes Askarov). I'm sure there are some Senators fans out there that dig Perfetti or Holtz.

And it fluctuates all the time.

I suppose Detroit is wrestling with the same decision but perhaps hopeful that Drysdale or Raymond moves into the top 3?

The semi-relief offered by our #3 (please be automatic) selection is offset by the craziness of the #5.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I don't really have any issue with your take here.

I'm not a big fan of butting in on other people's forums but that's mainly because I've been here awhile and in general it's counterproductive. Team boards are a "safe space" for a reason to allow fans to blow off steam and discuss things with some degree of freedom from trolling and criticism. There are plenty of general boards to discuss hockey issues with other fans, but I'm not the HF police (at least not anymore) and while I ask fellow fans to refrain from injecting their helpful comments into the conversations on other team boards, they don't have to listen.

On the topic of Byfield, I think he's the general consensus #2 in the draft and more Senators fans want him than Stutzle, including myself. The poll on the Senators board speaks for itself. No one is pretending otherwise.

That being said, it's not a unanimous opinion and there appears to be no real controversy with respect to his position relative to Lafreniere, at least, not for the last 6 months or more.

Why is that? He's much bigger than Laf, he skates like the wind and he's a centre. It should be a no-brainer, but there are some question marks about Byfield which some people want to discuss. It's the reason he's a tier down.

One of my colleagues' son plays in the OHL for the Oshawa Generals, and so he's never missed watching a game in years. I asked him his opinion on the draft well before the lottery and he thought that Byfield was the most overrated player relative to his draft position based on his fairly focused following of the OHL. He mentioned that for all of Byfield's numbers, he didn't appear to show his best on the biggest stages. Small sample size, just like the WJCs, but there's still some lingering doubt there. Interestingly, the guy that really impressed him was Drysdale.

The one aspect in your post that I take issue with is the idea that Ottawa fans are souring on Byfield because there's much less likelihood that he's still be around at #3, and so we're subconsciously favouring Stutzle to offset the disappointment. I've seen far too many players in the top 5 either exceed or fall relative to their draft position to get that emotionally manipulative about it.

Heck, I was one of the Senators fans who was jumping up and down in anger at passing on Zadina for Tkachuk (who had scored a whopping 24 goals in 96 games prior to his draft) and it turns out Brady is a pretty good player after all. After Lazar had been largely selected based on "character" and "readiness for the NHL", I was worried that Ottawa had done the same with Brady. For the record, I'm not sleeping on Zadina either, still a very talented prospect. So I've learned my lesson.

There's a lot of gossip about hockey in Ottawa and unsurprisingly everyone has some take about what they heard from someone about something. It passes the time, particularly when we haven't actually seen our team play in months. The gossip about LA is hardly unique to them. They just happen to be the team with the most potential impact on Ottawa's highest draft selection in decades.

Some people actually like Stutzle more. I'm not one of those people, but they do exist, and they aren't necessarily ignorant or ill-informed or stupid or trying to emotionally shield themselves from the result on draft day. They value different skills or they have a different assessment of Byfield's or Stutzle's potential.

In any event, I would ask you what you think Byfield's biggest weaknesses are, and what about him concerns you as a Kings fan knowing that he will likely be their pick.

To me, his size represents potential, but that potential can be unrealized, particularly when a player transitions to the NHL where players are already bigger, stronger and faster than anyone they've played against in Junior. The size/reach advantage isn't as prominent against NHL competition where you're facing a pool of 10-15 years of conditioning and physical development as opposed to the 2-3 years spanning the OHL player pool. In general, I think it takes longer for players who have size to transition that advantage to the NHL. I think his ceiling is higher but his floor may be lower. You might take issue with that.

I can certainly point out my issues with Stutzle - I watched a lot of Germany at the WJCs (where Seider was the really impressive player) and my concerns with his play are typical of someone with his skillset - holds on to the puck too long, tries to beat one too many opponents when it came to the really skilled teams, has a bit of a muffin for a shot, might have trouble with the larger and more physical players. But I also acknowledge that I haven't watched him with Mannheim aside from the multitude of prospect highlight reel youtube videos that are kicking around for everyone. A lot is made of his professional experience but it is the DEL and he was placed in a pretty advantageous situation.

Agreed with all of your points, you can find a flaw in every prospect. I just found it peculiar that some people only seem to focus on the flaws and ignore the good qualities in a player who just turned 18. The biggest risk with Byfield is like other fair assessments have made: you're banking on his potential and how much better he will be, versus looking at some prospects who might look more like finished products or those who have reached their potential or look more NHL ready. That's an advantage Stutzle might have, but it's also fair to question the quality of competition he played against, despite the advantage some think he has playing in a men's league.

I've taken issue with people whose only comment is "he's overrated" without providing any reasoning. I see people question his IQ without providing any examples, or how the hell they even define IQ. Then you have those who've watched him closely for years who say he's a very smart player and his nickname is Q because of his high hockey IQ. So we start seeing contradictions, and there's a base that only focuses on the negatives, and I'm trying to balance that out with evidence that proves the contrary.

The Scouching Report touches on this very subject, and for a player at his age, I don't see the flaws being pointed out as being any red flags. It's stuff a player of his caliber can work on and improve. The size issue isn't too concerning because Byfield's success in the OHL isn't due to his size and strength advantage, it's due to his abilities. He'll learn to use his size to his advantage as he matures, and him working out with Gary Roberts' camp is encouraging. As a Kings fan, we heard similar concerns with Drew Doughty's conditioning heading into the 2008 draft. There were a pocket of fans who were on the Bogosian bandwagon because he was already built like a man and he was physically dominant in juniors. Then look at how his career went in the NHL. He couldn't physically dominate at this level, and look at how Doughty's career took off. I'm seeing similarities in the way Byfield can be molded into a pro and how much better he will be when he's a better conditioned athlete.

Flippant comments about him being overrated and pointing at his WJC as a major concern is simply weak, and I've already posted plenty of evidence proving why it's wrong to focus solely on that tournament given the number of players who had successful tournaments who went nowhere, as well as those who had poor tournaments (or weren't even invited) and excelled. And that's directed at Rorschach. Some people are forgetting what this kid has accomplished at 16/17, and being almost a year behind in development makes a huge difference. If he was draft eligible in 2021, he's going to be looked upon as the #1 pick in next year's draft.

To me, the reasons to get excited about Byfield far exceed the concerns. I find that he's more likely to reach is potential than not. If others think otherwise, that's fine. We'll just have to wait for him to prove his naysayers wrong, just as Drew Doughty did, and just as Anze Kopitar did when scouts were afraid to rank him highly and held his birthplace against him. You'd be surprised how often these professionals who are paid to scout are wrong.

From Bob McKenzie's 2005 scouting profile on Anze Kopitar:
As one scout said, "The kid could turn out to be a great player, but if you're picking that high, do you really want to take a chance on a kid from a country that has produced no NHL talent? Look at what happened to those Swiss first rounders. I don't care what you say, it's a gamble taking kids with unconventional backgrounds."

That provides some context towards how some minds work of random scouts. They all have their own personal biases, just as it'll appear all of us do when discussing certain players. I'm providing that quote as an example though to not be so dismissive, like that ill informed scout.

 

[NyQuil]

From Bob McKenzie's 2005 scouting profile on Anze Kopitar:
As one scout said, "The kid could turn out to be a great player, but if you're picking that high, do you really want to take a chance on a kid from a country that has produced no NHL talent? Look at what happened to those Swiss first rounders. I don't care what you say, it's a gamble taking kids with unconventional backgrounds."

That provides some context towards how some minds work of random scouts. They all have their own personal biases, just as it'll appear all of us do when discussing certain players. I'm providing that quote as an example though to not be so dismissive, like that ill informed scout.

Ugh, thanks for reminding me.

The Senators board was pretty excited about drafting Anze Kopitar ("he's basically a Swede, of course we'll pick him!") and then Brian Lee walked up to the podium.

That was the first 1st round draft pick where I actively took issue with the Senators organization.

 

[King'sPawn]

Unfortunately I think there were a few people who, for lack of a better phrase, posted in bad faith to let the thread sink down into silly bickering.

My thoughts remain that Byfield is No. 2 on my list with Stutzle very close. I will still be happy if the Kings take Stutzle.

And it's valid to have criticisms and opinions. I think, by now, we should know it's too early to call a prospect a "sure thing" whether we talk about a superstar or a bust. And ignoring different development paths which may influence careers going forward will just further muddy up an opinion.

Hopefully we can move forward with talking about the prospect more than fanbases.

 

[saska sault]

If he ends up back in Jr. who do you guys think takes a crack at trading for him? London? Ottawa? Kitchener?

Could be the Sault or Oshawa depending on who gets to host the Memorial Cup?

 

[Merrrlin]

If you have a minute, fill out Quinton's HFBoards scorecard.

 

[kabidjan18]

I find this a bit of a strange take in regards to consensus. I mean, Bob's list is the best barometer of consensus around, and Stutzle is ranked 2nd there.

As for Byfield, I think more people are sold on what he could be, than what he actually is. People are really underestimating the risk associated with him. You are putting a lot of faith in development for a top 3 pick. He's still quite raw, which creates more potential road bumps and detours on the path to reach what many who are high on him are expecting him to be.

Here's the thing. Is Byfield not a conceptual counter to Stutzle?

Forget Patrice Bergeron or Anze Kopitar. If we suppose that Stutzle performs to his best comparison and becomes like Mitch Marner. And Byfield lags behind a bit and becomes like a Pierre Luc Dubois figure. I feel like we've seen that movie before. If you can put Byfield out there 20 minutes a game and he can keep the scoresheet clean when he's out there, you get some solid D-men, some two way wingers, some backup centers. If Stutzle can score 1 point a game against Byfield's team he'll look amazing, I mean PPG, that's really good. But if every game ends 2-1, 3-1, 3-2, with the occasional shutout. At that point is Stutzle really worth more.

 

[93LEAFS]

Here's the thing. Is Byfield not a conceptual counter to Stutzle?

Forget Patrice Bergeron or Anze Kopitar. If we suppose that Stutzle performs to his best comparison and becomes like Mitch Marner. And Byfield lags behind a bit and becomes like a Pierre Luc Dubois figure. I feel like we've seen that movie before. If you can put Byfield out there 20 minutes a game and he can keep the scoresheet clean when he's out there, you get some solid D-men, some two way wingers, some backup centers. If Stutzle can score 1 point a game against Byfield's team he'll look amazing, I mean PPG, that's really good. But if every game ends 2-1, 3-1, 3-2, with the occasional shutout. At that point is Stutzle really worth more.

I don't see him as a defensive shut-down guy though. If he struggles, he's going to be pushed to the wing as a guy who uses his speed to be the first on the forecheck. Stutzle's best outcome is arguably Barzal, which is a pretty damn valuable center who you can use in multiple situations.

 

[Liver King]

I think one aspect of drafting that people focus less on is the development portion. Sometimes I think "bad" drafting teams have bigger weaknesses in their development programs than their actual scouts.

You draft a prospect to develope him into a player - guys like McDavid dont need much investment from the org but most prospects do.

Some prospects have amazing raw tools but need a lot of work, some have put it all together already even though they have less skill and size.

Byfield is a guy, who if developed properly, can be an absolutley dominating player.

I think LA and Ottawa are both great developing teams so I feel pretty confident in him either way. Again I'm happy LA is out of division because I'm gonna be cheering for Byfield if he ends up on either team.

I do say as a Sens fan I wish I could emotionally attach myself to Stutzle or Byfield right now haha same goes for 5th ova..guess we can tune into the draft and see. I like to dive into the gossip over which team is gonna pick who because it's fun.. but part of the excitement is not for sure knowing who goes where until the day

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think one aspect of drafting that people focus less on is the development portion. Sometimes I think "bad" drafting teams have bigger weaknesses in their development programs than their actual scouts.

You draft a prospect to develope him into a player - guys like McDavid dont need much investment from the org but most prospects do.

Some prospects have amazing raw tools but need a lot of work, some have put it all together already even though they have less skill and size.

Byfield is a guy, who if developed properly, can be an absolutley dominating player.

I think LA and Ottawa are both great developing teams so I feel pretty confident in him either way. Again I'm happy LA is out of division because I'm gonna be cheering for Byfield if he ends up on either team.

I do say as a Sens fan I wish I could emotionally attach myself to Stutzle or Byfield right now haha same goes for 5th ova..guess we can tune into the draft and see. I like to dive into the gossip over which team is gonna pick who because it's fun.. but part of the excitement is not for sure knowing who goes where until the day

One of the reasons I'm most excited about either dude is that their flaws are pretty apparent and workable and that they're already elite at their current levels in spite of concerns.

Agreed on the development teams, it's been night and day since LA revitalized their org in the Dean Lombardi years. We have placed so many 7th rounders in the NHL it's crazy, and now Matt Roy is our 2nd best dman, for example. And that's without talking about the goalie factory. It's exciting to wonder what they're going to be doing with blue chip skill in the next year or two.

 

[bland]

I don't see him as a defensive shut-down guy though. If he struggles, he's going to be pushed to the wing as a guy who uses his speed to be the first on the forecheck. Stutzle's best outcome is arguably Barzal, which is a pretty damn valuable center who you can use in multiple situations.

I have only seen a small handful of full games, and dozens and dozens of clip packages, so please correct me if you have more experience, but I don't think I have ever seen Byfield getting in deep on a forecheck.

On outnumbered attacks you can see his aggression, but on the forecheck it sure seems like he always holds back to assume that F3 spot where he darts into the fray if his teammates force a turnover, or he hangs back between the dots and blueline, sets traps and looks to strip pucks with his reach instead of using his size to disrupt transition.

That's not a criticism, its just with that cerebral approach I can't see Byfield as anything other than a center. If he doesn't pan out as a #1 center, he looks an awful lot like a better skating version of Keith Primeau or even Kevin Hayes.

The funny thing is that as an offensive player without the puck, the guy he reminds of the most of is Rick Nash. Of course as a center he will end up moving more pucks than shooting them, so the comparison is more about how he strides and hangs out of the play before jumping from the outside inward as plays develop.

This Kings fan prefers Stützle, and I am almost positive he will end up the more impactful player, BUT we simply have to draft Byfield. If he puts it all together, and there is a pretty good chance he will, you just cannot turn down the opportunity to draft a potential franchise, massive, dominant center. The Kings are in a prime position to take that swing for the fences - they have plenty of top notch prospects up the middle and they can choose to buy a ticket to the lottery with the biggest jackpot.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

So whats the consensus on QB?

There isn’t any. There are two camps. Most of these people have him at 2, with a few who have him at 1. These people are big fans. Then there are some that think he’s overrated and have him anywhere from 3-5, with probably even a few that have him lower than that.

 

[Polar Bear]

But now you’re just browbeating any person who says anything contradictory to a prospect whose ranking has sunk significantly. This is due to other prospects showing more, not because your guy’s diminished in some way. It’s called leapfrogging. Your guy is still as regarded as before, a heavily flawed prospect in terms of D year resume with a highly theoretical top three player in the league projectable ceiling, but others with improving showings jump ahead. And just because a few sportswriters suggest NYR might draft him ahead because Rangers need a center and to the uninformed, who often suggest drafting by need over BPA, they consider Byfield the only center. It’s not because he’s the calibler of prospect equal or better than Lafreniere.

Great response in general. There is not a single sports writer in NY claiming we might take Byfield. In fact, just the opposite with all stating the known fact that Laf is a lock at 1. So whoever is the rogue morons writing as such are really just click baiting.

 

[93LEAFS]

I have only seen a small handful of full games, and dozens and dozens of clip packages, so please correct me if you have more experience, but I don't think I have ever seen Byfield getting in deep on a forecheck.

On outnumbered attacks you can see his aggression, but on the forecheck it sure seems like he always holds back to assume that F3 spot where he darts into the fray if his teammates force a turnover, or he hangs back between the dots and blueline, sets traps and looks to strip pucks with his reach instead of using his size to disrupt transition.

That's not a criticism, its just with that cerebral approach I can't see Byfield as anything other than a center. If he doesn't pan out as a #1 center, he looks an awful lot like a better skating version of Keith Primeau or even Kevin Hayes.

The funny thing is that as an offensive player without the puck, the guy he reminds of the most of is Rick Nash. Of course as a center he will end up moving more pucks than shooting them, so the comparison is more about how he strides and hangs out of the play before jumping from the outside inward as plays develop.

This Kings fan prefers Stützle, and I am almost positive he will end up the more impactful player, BUT we simply have to draft Byfield. If he puts it all together, and there is a pretty good chance he will, you just cannot turn down the opportunity to draft a potential franchise, massive, dominant center. The Kings are in a prime position to take that swing for the fences - they have plenty of top notch prospects up the middle and they can choose to buy a ticket to the lottery with the biggest jackpot.

I've seen a ton.

Players do different things at the NHL level than what they are asked to do at juniors. If he struggles with the pace of play at center, than his skill set will allow him to succeed as a forechecking winger. Similar to how Sam Bennett is used despite being a center in junior.Most centers in junior are asked to be the F3, but tons of players are also moved to the wing as they progress up levels. I'm saying that is his likely floor, if he doesn't get past the roadbumps to becoming an elite center. He could also become an elite center and not have to dramatically change his game. But, I don't see his low-end as being what PLD currently is.

 

[Rorschach]

Great response in general. There is not a single sports writer in NY claiming we might take Byfield. In fact, just the opposite with all stating the known fact that Laf is a lock at 1. So whoever is the rogue morons writing as such are really just click baiting.

Lazy writers gonna be lazy. Amirite? If NYR was going to skip over Laf for Byfield, who is worthy enough to be a 1OA but is not as large a magnitude as a guaranteed franchise player in Laf, they would have skipped over Kakko for someone like Zegras or Turcotte or whatever. They had a choice of many 1Cs that year and chose BPA. Smart money is always on BPA.

 

[LAKings88]

As a Kings fan my first instinct was that I wanted Stutzle in LA. A guy that can take me out of my seat. A guy that is electric to watch. A different mold of player.

I have usually knocked bigger more Physically mature guys that play against smaller players. Byfield seemed to fit this type for me.

After watching highlights of both, Byfield seemed to rely more on skill than force. He has some electricity as well. This won me over more to him.

I think he can be another Kopitar. Not big mean but big and strong. Kopi is tremendously skilled and can play with flash too. He sacrificed some of it to be a well rounded selke number one center. I think Byfield would have a great teacher in him.

That being said, be thrilled to have a Matt Barzal type player in LA too. Wish LA was picking 5th as well

 

[kabidjan18]

I don't see him as a defensive shut-down guy though. If he struggles, he's going to be pushed to the wing as a guy who uses his speed to be the first on the forecheck. Stutzle's best outcome is arguably Barzal, which is a pretty damn valuable center who you can use in multiple situations.

Hmmm, I assume you know better in that you've seen him a lot so I'd defer to your judgment. But what would prevent him from being a shut-down guy? Attitude problems? Because I feel like if a team had the choice to turn him into a forechecking winger or a shut-down center they'd choose to turn him into a shut-down center, at least right now I feel like that's more value. So unless he's not willing or lacks some key faculties, I think he should be able to learn the role.

Barzal is a good defensive forward. The scouting reports suggest that Stutzle is not, not that he could never become one. I think it's very typical, or it's my impression, of kids coming out of that region of Europe, however. Kids are basically taught from childhood that there are skill players and grinders. Kids who are grinders are never allowed by coaches to handle the puck, kids who are skill players never bother to learn defense. The quality of training has improved such that technically, as far as skating ability and stickhandling ability, players are getting better and better and now good enough to be drafted. But if they really want to learn defense they have to go to Canada. And I've noticed the Germans are better than us on this front but not by much, it's like 15% defense instead of 10% defense.

 

[93LEAFS]

Hmmm, I assume you know better in that you've seen him a lot so I'd defer to your judgment. But what would prevent him from being a shut-down guy? Attitude problems? Because I feel like if a team had the choice to turn him into a forechecking winger or a shut-down center they'd choose to turn him into a shut-down center, at least right now I feel like that's more value. So unless he's not willing or lacks some key faculties, I think he should be able to learn the role.

Barzal is a good defensive forward. The scouting reports suggest that Stutzle is not, not that he could never become one. I think it's very typical, or it's my impression, of kids coming out of that region of Europe, however. Kids are basically taught from childhood that there are skill players and grinders. Kids who are grinders are never allowed by coaches to handle the puck, kids who are skill players never bother to learn defense. The quality of training has improved such that technically, as far as skating ability and stickhandling ability, players are getting better and better and now good enough to be drafted. But if they really want to learn defense they have to go to Canada. And I've noticed the Germans are better than us on this front but not by much, it's like 15% defense instead of 10% defense.

I think he's defensively responsible, but I don't think he's a guy you put out expecting to shut down the other line-up. I mean, even your example of PLD allowed more goals when he was out at 5v5 this year, than his line scored.

He's a good kid who works hard. I haven't heard anything about his attitude being bad outside of ISS, which struck me as garbage. I'm not sure he processes the game fast enough to be an elite shutdown guy. His floor isn't a 2nd line shutdown guy. That's rarely the floor for anyone. Byfield's floor is a 3rd line winger. Not that, that, is the likely outcome.

I mean, Marner is a pretty good defensive player, and always has been. His only real limit is that his size limits him from winning battles down low. But, he read play exceptionally well, and has been used on the PK at all levels for that reason.

 

[Ulysses31]

How's that? Trade? Pass on Lafreniere?

Yeah.....no. Laf is as close to a lock at 1 as you get. Stop sniffing the glue, son.

New scouching breaks it down pretty good. Laf is better now but potential of what Byfield may be make him arguably a good pick at 1 too. Comparison of Byfied and Laf starts starts at about 15:20.

Im not claiming to be an expert, just think there is a half decent chance Byfield goes 1st.

 

[kabidjan18]

I think he's defensively responsible, but I don't think he's a guy you put out expecting to shut down the other line-up. I mean, even your example of PLD allowed more goals when he was out at 5v5 this year, than his line scored.

He's a good kid who works hard. I haven't heard anything about his attitude being bad outside of ISS, which struck me as garbage. I'm not sure he processes the game fast enough to be an elite shutdown guy. His floor isn't a 2nd line shutdown guy. That's rarely the floor for anyone. Byfield's floor is a 3rd line winger. Not that, that, is the likely outcome.

Yeah, as it were, Columbus subverts the normal team structure that you want your top 2 lines to score more than they get scored on and you want your bottom 2 lines to get scored on more than they score, but to keep that margin as low as possible, but merely having 4 bottom 6 lines that are also trying to minimize margins and then hoping for some unforeseen offense on lines TBD in a given game. Like a worse version of the Stars. Also, he's always paired with Atkinson or Texier...and I just always wonder why they have this defensive concept but they still have a player like Texier.

For sure if his processing of the game is lackluster that could be a real problem en route to having him play that role.

I mean, Marner is a pretty good defensive player, and always has been. His only real limit is that his size limits him from winning battles down low. But, he read play exceptionally well, and has been used on the PK at all levels for that reason.

Actually pretty curious about your thoughts on this. I've heard this before from Leafs fans, but I wonder how much of that is resultant of low expectations that Leafs fans have for their forwards when it comes to defense, because the Leafs PK was also not one of the better PKs in the league this year and the Leafs were also like 6th (or 26th) in GA/G on the season.