Rumor: Byfuglien to Detroit or Philadelphia

Roooski

Registered User
Sep 21, 2011
167
0
I do not see them trading Buff for anything anytime soon. He is a key veteran on this team and is still quite young. Understandably if/when we trade any key players it will be for younger talent but with such a young team already I can't see how we would get rid of such experience.

Can you imagine some of the struggles and pains we would go through without any experienced leadership.
 

winterpeg

Sharp Dressed Man
Feb 20, 2013
1,211
0
Winnipeg
To be clear, I am not saying that the Jets game breakers cannot or will not be part of long term success here in Winnipeg, but I don't think good teams rely on individual players to 'break games'. Some good teams clearly have players that can do it, but they don't rely on them, they just take it as a bonus when they do.

I agree, winning is based more on a system, and strong play throughout the lineup. We would have probably won the past two games if you replaced Buff with someone else who was his defensive equal but had little offensive threat, because we played great hockey. BUT just like a great goalie can steal a game (we saw Henrik make a pretty good effort to do just that last night. Miller does it for his garbage team all the time) a great player can assert his will on a game and make an end to end rush with a couple minutes left, and put it away.

You want to outplay the other team every game, but sometimes you wont. And when it's just not there regardless of effort level, (second game in a back to back, you played a hard game the night before, your opponent is fresh) you want the kind of guys on your team that have that x-factor (it's almost like it's own special elite ability) so that you can steal a few games, too.

You take your system that really works, get full buy in, have a guy like 2013 Andrew Ladd wearing the C and working his keister off EVERY game and you get a lot of wins. But it's when you go beyond that and insert a few players who can get find that overdrive gear that so many people just don't have, and that's how you win cups. Those are the guys that catch fire in the playoffs, and when both teams are playing their system, and giving it "110%", you need a way to turn the tide.

THAT's the fascination with "Game Breakers" for me. They're the ace in the sleeve, or the amp that turns to 11 instead of 10.

Interesting note, since the first salary cap lockout, I think, something like 25 to 50% of the cap on each cup winning team has been split between 5 players or less. (this might be from before LA won) I'm trying to find the article for it. But I think it lends itself to the theory of a good system through the team and then a couple of guys that just take control when it's all on the line.
 

Huffer

Registered User
Jul 16, 2010
16,724
6,433
Really can't see Chevy being very interested in dealing Buff right now. We're fighting for the playoffs, and Buff is front and centre driving the bus. Also, if we lost Buff, and Hainsy as well to FA, we're in trouble on D next year. We're not going to get a better D back in a Buff trade, and even if Trouba joined the team next year, expecting him to jump right in and be a solid top 4 D man right out of the gate is expecting a lot.

That being said, everyone is trade able for the right price I guess. Don't like anything Detroit could offer though.
 

jetsfan8

Registered User
Mar 13, 2013
378
0
Not referring directly to Byfuglien, but I am a little puzzled with this board's apparent fascination with 'game breakers'.

Based on what Cheveldayoff and Noel have said publicly I think the vision is to build a team that competes hard every night and wins by playing the 'right way', accumulating small advantages over the course of 60 minutes.

For now the Jets have to rely on the game breaking skill of Wheeler, speed and shot of Kane, and creativity of Byfuglien, but I can't imagine that is the long-term vision.

Is it possible for an NHL team to experience long-term success in this day and age if built around a player referred to as an enigma?

To be clear, I am not saying that the Jets game breakers cannot or will not be part of long term success here in Winnipeg, but I don't think good teams rely on individual players to 'break games'. Some good teams clearly have players that can do it, but they don't rely on them, they just take it as a bonus when they do.


puttsburg is a damn good team and they rely on crosby every night
look at washington now that ovie sucks

good teams rely on star players, every cup winner has a star
 

SCP Guy

Registered User
Jun 21, 2011
6,428
3,937
The Peg
It would take a HUGE overpayment for Chevy to deal Buff....So if a deal does have any legs it would have to be so sweet it would be good news for the Jets
 

almostawake

Registered User
Jan 19, 2006
4,805
620
Lausanne
I agree, winning is based more on a system, and strong play throughout the lineup. We would have probably won the past two games if you replaced Buff with someone else who was his defensive equal but had little offensive threat, because we played great hockey. BUT just like a great goalie can steal a game (we saw Henrik make a pretty good effort to do just that last night. Miller does it for his garbage team all the time) a great player can assert his will on a game and make an end to end rush with a couple minutes left, and put it away.

You want to outplay the other team every game, but sometimes you wont. And when it's just not there regardless of effort level, (second game in a back to back, you played a hard game the night before, your opponent is fresh) you want the kind of guys on your team that have that x-factor (it's almost like it's own special elite ability) so that you can steal a few games, too.

You take your system that really works, get full buy in, have a guy like 2013 Andrew Ladd wearing the C and working his keister off EVERY game and you get a lot of wins. But it's when you go beyond that and insert a few players who can get find that overdrive gear that so many people just don't have, and that's how you win cups. Those are the guys that catch fire in the playoffs, and when both teams are playing their system, and giving it "110%", you need a way to turn the tide.

THAT's the fascination with "Game Breakers" for me. They're the ace in the sleeve, or the amp that turns to 11 instead of 10.

Interesting note, since the first salary cap lockout, I think, something like 25 to 50% of the cap on each cup winning team has been split between 5 players or less. (this might be from before LA won) I'm trying to find the article for it. But I think it lends itself to the theory of a good system through the team and then a couple of guys that just take control when it's all on the line.

I understand what you're getting at but I don't see how that makes them untouchable.

To take your amp that goes to 11 analogy, when your team can only get to 6 most nights I don't believe it should be unthinkable to trade a guy that will get you to 8 occassionally. The better strategy would be to acquire players that can make you a team that gets to 8 or 9 everynight.

Once you're a team that can get to 10 on a regular basis I certainly see the value of a guy that can get you to 11, but until you get that team in place I don't understand why those guys should be untouchable.

To be clear, I'm not advocating we trade Byfuglien, but I don't agree with the general concept that because, from time to time, he makes a borderline playoff team look like a world beater, he can't be traded.

Regarding the distribution of salary with top teams, I think it is important to make a distinction between star players like Crosby, Chara, etc. and game breakers like Byfuglien, Semin, Gaborik, etc. To me the real stars in the game are guys that bring that level constantly, every shift. The fact that Crosby can take a game over is the cherry on top. What makes him really valuable is fact that every shift he works hard, makes the right plays, fights hard for every puck, and does so with a lot of skill. That's what the Penguins really miss when he's out of the lineup.

If one thinks Byfuglien has a good shot of making that leap then I can completely understand why they would consider him untouchable. But I don't feel that 'game breaking' ability alone makes a player untouchable on a borderline playoff team.
 

almostawake

Registered User
Jan 19, 2006
4,805
620
Lausanne
puttsburg is a damn good team and they rely on crosby every night
look at washington now that ovie sucks

good teams rely on star players, every cup winner has a star

Star players and game breakers can be two different things. A lot of star players are game breakers, but they are much more than just game breakers.

The last two Stanley cup winners do not support your point.

The Bruins scratched their best game breaking forward most of their Stanley Cup run.

The Kings have a lot of talent players but I don't think many people would identify any of them as outright game breakers.

Crosby, I don't view his main value to be as a game breaker. Crosby is an extremely hard working player and probably the best possession forward in the game. Without the occasional flash Crosby would still be one of the most dominant forwards in the league due to his ability to tilt the ice in his team's favour.

Ovechkin is a prime example of why I don't believe a player should be untouchable just because he is a game breaker. Is Ovechkin no longer a game breaker? Did he magically lose his talent? His speed? His shot?

Absolutely not, he's just not applying himself. Because the Caps' were designed to have a disproportionate amount of their offence run through him they're struggling as a result. To me this is exactly why a team should not be built to rely on game breakers.

Anyways, I'm not saying that having players with game breaking ability is bad. I'm saying that game breaking ability alone is not enough to make a player untouchable in my eyes. Especially to a team that is not a contender.
 

garret9

AKA#VitoCorrelationi
Mar 31, 2012
21,738
4,380
Vancouver
www.hockey-graphs.com
I was going to reply about this whole "consistency" thing with making fake drawings on MSPaint... but even that is too much effort haha...

IMO I think there's a tiny bit to consistency but I think there's also a lot that is considered consistency when it's actually just being more talented. You're more talented so you on average are better. (without considering injuries)

Kinda like in statistics you have both the mean and the standard deviation...
I guess in my example I think that the standard deviation of a players play is probably somewhat consistent(ish) throughout the league but the mean level of play (or talent) varies hugely.

Total assumption/guess. No stats or anything.
 

Hobble

Registered User
Sep 2, 2010
8,159
7,407
If we were to trade Buff to Detroit (and I want us to keep Buff forever), I would want them to start with Darren Helm.
 

Scheifele55

Registered User
Jun 22, 2012
1,434
1,524
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Not referring directly to Byfuglien, but I am a little puzzled with this board's apparent fascination with 'game breakers'.

Based on what Cheveldayoff and Noel have said publicly I think the vision is to build a team that competes hard every night and wins by playing the 'right way', accumulating small advantages over the course of 60 minutes.

For now the Jets have to rely on the game breaking skill of Wheeler, speed and shot of Kane, and creativity of Byfuglien, but I can't imagine that is the long-term vision.

Is it possible for an NHL team to experience long-term success in this day and age if built around a player referred to as an enigma?

To be clear, I am not saying that the Jets game breakers cannot or will not be part of long term success here in Winnipeg, but I don't think good teams rely on individual players to 'break games'. Some good teams clearly have players that can do it, but they don't rely on them, they just take it as a bonus when they do.

I'd much rather have both schenns rather than buff

When his payday comes up how good will this team be and will they keep him
 

cbcwpg

Registered User
May 18, 2010
20,259
20,910
Between the Pipes
IMO the only way I see Buff getting traded would be, if some team thinks they are so close to winning the Cup this year and all they need is a solid defenseman, they give up a ton of futures ( young players and/or draft picks ) and Chevy bites. IMO a straight Buff for player trade would result in the potential Cup winner giving up too much current talent to get Buff... it would be a wash and wouldn't help them win. (IE: giving the Jets a 20-35 goal scoring forward for Buff isn't going to help a team win the Cup ). JMO.
 

almostawake

Registered User
Jan 19, 2006
4,805
620
Lausanne
I was going to reply about this whole "consistency" thing with making fake drawings on MSPaint... but even that is too much effort haha...

IMO I think there's a tiny bit to consistency but I think there's also a lot that is considered consistency when it's actually just being more talented. You're more talented so you on average are better. (without considering injuries)

Kinda like in statistics you have both the mean and the standard deviation...
I guess in my example I think that the standard deviation of a players play is probably somewhat consistent(ish) throughout the league but the mean level of play (or talent) varies hugely.

Total assumption/guess. No stats or anything.

Purely on the statistical side I am not aware of any such analysis in hockey (I don't know how it would really be done). I know that it has been done in basketball at both the NBA and NCAA levels. Those studies have shown that std deviation varies a lot player to player.

On the conceptual level I firmly believe that individual performance varies a great deal game to game, depending on a variety of factors.
 

SensibleGuy

Registered User
Nov 26, 2011
12,257
8,343
Just because Chevy has expressed a desire to have a certain kind of team doesn't mean one or two wildcards in the lineup aren't a valuable asset. Having a guy like Buff who brings something to the table that forces other teams to deal with - and in Buff's case I'm not really sure how you do deal with it because he can win games for you from anywhere on the ice - is a pretty important thing. Chevy can build his team how he wants and still have Buff around.
 

Positive

Enjoy your flight
May 4, 2007
6,154
1,488
Osborne Village in the 'Peg
Thread needs some Buff love. :)

You occasionally see glimpses of how good he could be in a forward role. Skates well, underrated passer, protects the puck, hard to move off of it, can actually stick handle and dangle a bit. Heavy shot.

Just doesn't have the gas tank to do it full time. :) This is just from the last couple of weeks:

Nice rush by Buff to set up the winner two weeks ago


Buff winning it in OT last week


All Buff from :17 on in this clip vs Toronto on Tuesday
 

Brainstrained

Registered User
Dec 7, 2011
56
1
Northeastern Ontario
The thing about late season trades is the buyers are rarely willing to pay with good quality roster players. The currency is marginal roster players, farmhands and draft prospects.

And there's no way Buff gets traded for that under the current situation.

I put this "rumour" in the "too outrageous to be real and not worth exploring" category.
 

almostawake

Registered User
Jan 19, 2006
4,805
620
Lausanne
IMO the only way I see Buff getting traded would be, if some team thinks they are so close to winning the Cup this year and all they need is a solid defenseman, they give up a ton of futures ( young players and/or draft picks ) and Chevy bites. IMO a straight Buff for player trade would result in the potential Cup winner giving up too much current talent to get Buff... it would be a wash and wouldn't help them win. (IE: giving the Jets a 20-35 goal scoring forward for Buff isn't going to help a team win the Cup ). JMO.

I don't think any of the teams interested in Byfuglien are looking at him as a player to push them over the top this season. Based on the rumors they're all teams looking to solve a long term problem on their back end.
 

PaperRockChamp

Registered User
Oct 19, 2009
2,552
202
Wpg
Thread needs some Buff love. :)

You occasionally see glimpses of how good he could be in a forward role. Skates well, underrated passer, protects the puck, hard to move off of it, can actually stick handle and dangle a bit. Heavy shot.

Just doesn't have the gas tank to do it full time. :) This is just from the last couple of weeks:

Nice rush by Buff to set up the winner two weeks ago


Buff winning it in OT last week


All Buff from :17 on in this clip vs Toronto on Tuesday


I endorse this post.
 

ajmidd12

Know-It-All
Apr 16, 2012
1,787
2
This Planet
I would be really pissed off if Chevy traded away Buff. While his play style is more than unconventional he brings a lot to the dressing room and moral of his team mates. EX: did you see his responses to the questions on the jumbo tron last night? Then the expression on his face and his team mates around him?

They were all laughing it up. The guy is a character who plays his heart out for our team, sometimes that is worth more than 20 first rounder draft picks.
 

surixon

Registered User
Jul 12, 2003
49,215
70,636
Winnipeg
Yep, and conversely it would probably hurt us in the short term. Doubtful that either GM would be amenable to that.

While on the topic I'm amazed that Detroit is still set on a pedisto when it comes to drafting and there prospect development. The truth of the matter is that their drafting has been sub par as of late. The last impact player that they drafted and developed was FranZen back 2004.

I really don't see anything in their current crop that intices me I. The least.
 

hockeyarena

Registered User
Aug 11, 2011
3,047
5,236
Winnipeg
www.hockeyarena.net
No way Buff is traded, especially if we're anywhere near a playoff spot. We're 2 seasons in now and it's very clear that he's the heart and soul of this team. He's got that rare gift to be able to take over a hockey game if he feels like it. Love his leadership too, he keeps the guys laughing in the room but at the same time knows when to buckle down and play. If teams are scouting our D it's Stuart, Postma, and Hainsey on the block.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad