Burnside: Are the Winnipeg Jets finished already?

[JetsFan815]

I disagree that this core was ever just a steady goaltender away from being a real contender. Sorry.

It's the failing of the GM that 5 years into his run we still have the worst goaltending. In basically every metric Jets were top 10 except goaltending. Improving your team has to start somewhere, most reasonable people would think improving the worst part of your team is a good start. Saying it's not worth improving the goaltending because the rest of the team is bad is like saying that you are cool with letting a murderer on the run stay in your house because you suspect your roommates might be petty theives so getting rid of one criminal is pointless.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think that this core with a decent goalie is just a playoff bubble team, just like last season. This core with inconsistent goaltending is a bottom-10 team. That's what we saw all the other years of Jets 2.0.

Why bother with short-term fixes of your goalie when the rest of the core is sub-par?

Minny last year was worse than we are this year. They were getting worse as they went along. Yeo had 'lost the room'. It looked very much like he was about to be fired. The team was falling apart. They get good goaltending and look what happens!

When we had good goaltending last year we could compete with any team in the league ..... and win. In the playoffs we were badly hampered by injury. Even Anaheim players said they noticed some of our 'walking wounded' and targeted them as a result. In spite of that it was mediocre goaltending that lead to the sweep more than anything else.

Reasonably healthy and with reasonable playoff level goaltending I don't know how far we might have gone last year but we would have been competitive with any of the final 4.

There are lots of contributing factors to our poor play this year; penalties, poor special teams, lack of 60 minute effort, tough schedule but without good goaltending no team is going anywhere.

We can argue around in circles forever and it will come back to the idea that D&D by itself cannot get you past mediocrity, playoff bubble team. Chevy started with a pretty good group of young players to build around. It lacked the supporting cast. That is the bottom 6 Fs and bottom 2 D. Some would argue that it needed 1 or 2 so called elite or star players. The big glaring hole though was in net. There was nothing in the prospect pool to build with. We are now in danger of having just the opposite, a strong prospect pool and an aging out core group that is past its prime ..... and still inadequate goaltending. We are just going to replace one core group with another.

 

[Whileee]

It's the failing of the GM that 5 years into his run we still have the worst goaltending. In basically every metric Jets were top 10 except goaltending. Improving your team has to start somewhere, most reasonable people would think improving the worst part of your team is a good start. Saying it's not worth improving the goaltending because the rest of the team is bad is like saying that you are cool with letting a murderer on the run stay in your house because you suspect your roommates might be petty theives so getting rid of one criminal is pointless.

Before last season, the Jets were not "top-10" in very much of anything.

Last season, the Jets were top 10 in 5v5 possession. Guess what. They were also top 10 in 5v5 save% (#9 at 0.928). They had a remarkable season, but while I don't think it was a "fluke", I just don't think the core of skaters was / is good enough to be a consistent contender, just like I don't think the goaltending is good enough. You and I will need to agree to disagree. Just remember that the Jets top 4-5 players are equivalent to a non-contender, not a contender....

Chevy made a mistake in signing Pavs to a long-term contract. Everyone gets that. As a fan, I would have been happy if he'd hit the jackpot with a player like Dubnyk. I just think that it's always a crapshoot to try to upgrade goaltending, and I would not have endorsed spending picks or prospects to try to nab one to try to boost this core.

 

[Jet]

I have been just as frustrated as the rest of you guys with the Jets this year. I did not expect this and our November might just have sunk us.

However, I think the Jets have actually been playing pretty well in December -- back to the team that made the playoffs last year. Problem is, they aren't getting the bounces.

Funny thing - hockey. Teams who are on winning streaks or good runs seem to keep winning even when they aren't playing well... it eventually catches up to them. Same with teams that are struggling. You can see they are playing better, doing the right things, but they are still losing. I think that is where the Jets are right now.

The BIG questions:

- when will their play reap rewards
- can they go on a big run
- can they avoid another losing streak
- can they stay healthy

There is still over half a season left. All is not lost. However, a lot has to go right in order for us to make the playoffs, that's for sure. It starts on Boxing Day. This team needs to start winning. Management NEEDS to figure out Buff and Ladd, one way or another. We also NEED a shakeup deal. We know how hard that is to pull of in this day and age now, ESPECIALLY with a cautious GM like Chevy.

I haven't given up yet but the machine is hooked up to the patient, that's for sure.

 

[truck]

Before last season, the Jets were not "top-10" in very much of anything.

Last season, the Jets were top 10 in 5v5 possession. Guess what. They were also top 10 in 5v5 save% (#9 at 0.928). They had a remarkable season, but while I don't think it was a "fluke", I just don't think the core of skaters was / is good enough to be a consistent contender, just like I don't think the goaltending is good enough. You and I will need to agree to disagree. Just remember that the Jets top 4-5 players are equivalent to a non-contender, not a contender....

Chevy made a mistake in signing Pavs to a long-term contract. Everyone gets that. As a fan, I would have been happy if he'd hit the jackpot with a player like Dubnyk. I just think that it's always a crapshoot to try to upgrade goaltending, and I would not have endorsed spending picks or prospects to try to nab one to try to boost this core.

They would have been better served spending the picks on goalies than Tlusty or Seto.

 

[Whileee]

They would have been better served spending the picks on goalies than Tlusty or Seto.

No doubt about that, as long as it was Dubnyk and not Scrivens. Would have been better to just keep the picks and amass prospects, though.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

I have been just as frustrated as the rest of you guys with the Jets this year. I did not expect this and our November might just have sunk us.

However, I think the Jets have actually been playing pretty well in December -- back to the team that made the playoffs last year. Problem is, they aren't getting the bounces.

Funny thing - hockey. Teams who are on winning streaks or good runs seem to keep winning even when they aren't playing well... it eventually catches up to them. Same with teams that are struggling. You can see they are playing better, doing the right things, but they are still losing. I think that is where the Jets are right now.

The BIG questions:

- when will their play reap rewards
- can they go on a big run
- can they avoid another losing streak
- can they stay healthy

There is still over half a season left. All is not lost. However, a lot has to go right in order for us to make the playoffs, that's for sure. It starts on Boxing Day. This team needs to start winning. Management NEEDS to figure out Buff and Ladd, one way or another. We also NEED a shakeup deal. We know how hard that is to pull of in this day and age now, ESPECIALLY with a cautious GM like Chevy.

I haven't given up yet but the machine is hooked up to the patient, that's for sure.

Wish I had your optimism, and I mean that. Agree that they've been playing better in the last month or so, but there are too many issues to overcome right now. Goaltending, defensive breakdowns, special teams, penalties; I don't feel like this team is all that unlucky to be two games below fake .500 at this point.

IMO this season is done, and it's high time they started a full rebuild where they accumulate draft picks and plan to be really bad for a year or so.

(Man, I sound like I need some booze in me.)

 

[truck]

Wish I had your optimism, and I mean that. Agree that they've been playing better in the last month or so, but there are too many issues to overcome right now. Goaltending, defensive breakdowns, special teams, penalties; I don't feel like this team is all that unlucky to be two games below fake .500 at this point.

IMO this season is done, and it's high time they started a full rebuild where they accumulate draft picks and plan to be really bad for a year or so.

(Man, I sound like I need some booze in me.)

There is always a chance, but at this point I think a late surge will do more damage than good. Odds are a late surge would result in a worse draft pick and the retention of assets that wpuld otherwise be traded as opposed to playoffs.

 

[Grind]

I disagree that this core was ever just a steady goaltender away from being a real contender. Sorry.

Contender or steady playoff team?


You should check the archive at Arctic ice hockey and jetsnation as there's been a lot of very thorough research and data that's shows with league avg goaltending we would have been in the playoffs every year we missed (I think, there may be one we still would have missed but I don't think so)

Flsince day one all the data has shown that the problem with this team has been depth and goal tending, NOT the core.

 

[MadMen88]

We're coming out absolutely swinging after Xmas. No doubt we win three in a row going into the new year. Are we done? Not even close. We can still do this! (Make the playoffs) COME ON GUYS!! We gotta lift these boys and cheer harder than ever over the next two games before hearing a nice loud TRUE NORTH in Arizona. Seriously.

 

[Whileee]

Contender or steady playoff team?


You should check the archive at Arctic ice hockey and jetsnation as there's been a lot of very thorough research and data that's shows with league avg goaltending we would have been in the playoffs every year we missed (I think, there may be one we still would have missed but I don't think so)

Flsince day one all the data has shown that the problem with this team has been depth and goal tending, NOT the core.

Bubble playoff team in the Atlantic.... miss out on Trouba and Ehlers. No thanks. I would have preferred that the Jets turn over and go all in on the draft and develop model earlier.

I guess I'm just not as excited about LLW (you can take one L out of that now, because Ladd has hit a wall and doesn't belong in the conversation for a top-end player this season) and Enstrom. Buff is elite now, but has had his ups and downs over the past few years. Hard to argue that.

How would you propose that the Jets should have acquired quality depth to supplement this core? Through free agency? Trades? What assets would you have traded to build up a strong supplement to the core? Picks? We sure had no prospects to trade.

 

[robertocarlos]

I am totally preparing for a hard tank. Ladd and Buff appear as good as gone, and if you really want a shot at Matthews you might as well deal one of Wheeler or Little as well.

Think the Lindros trade and what Quebec got back at the time...

Keep Wheeler. He is the next Captain.

 

[Say What]

I think the best plan is a re-tool. Not a rebuild.

Keep Wheeler & Little. Jettison Ladd, Byfuglien, Enstrom (when possible), and Pavelec (if possible).

 

[nobody important]

Contender or steady playoff team?


You should check the archive at Arctic ice hockey and jetsnation as there's been a lot of very thorough research and data that's shows with league avg goaltending we would have been in the playoffs every year we missed (I think, there may be one we still would have missed but I don't think so)

Flsince day one all the data has shown that the problem with this team has been depth and goal tending, NOT the core.

I won't disagree that depth and goaltending are a big part of the problem, but I don't think that the core players mentioned can be absolved of any responsibility in the mess we're in.

I will agree that your stats can provide an averaged assessment of a player's contribution, but that they miss out on the criticality of individual errors. A player can be having a statistically great game, then have a brain cramp and the puck is in our net and we lose. This is the problem I have with both Ladd and Buff. They can both turn the stupid and /or lazy up to 11 and I find that very frustrating to watch.

Both Little and Wheeler, to a lesser extent of late, can be invisible some games. A true leadership core should not be taking nights off. Why do they do this? Is working your ass off 20 or so hours each year too much to ask of someone making millions of dollars?

 

[jiho]

I won't disagree that depth and goaltending are a big part of the problem, but I don't think that the core players mentioned can be absolved of any responsibility in the mess we're in.

I will agree that your stats can provide an averaged assessment of a player's contribution, but that they miss out on the criticality of individual errors. A player can be having a statistically great game, then have a brain cramp and the puck is in our net and we lose. This is the problem I have with both Ladd and Buff. They can both turn the stupid and /or lazy up to 11 and I find that very frustrating to watch.

Both Little and Wheeler, to a lesser extent of late, can be invisible some games. A true leadership core should not be taking nights off. Why do they do this? Is working your ass off 20 or so hours each year too much to ask of someone making millions of dollars?

If you think any player in any sport can bring his "A" game every night you have never played any sport in your life. It is totally unfair to criticize the LLW line. Wheeler is 10th in the league in scoring and as hard a worker as anyone in the NHL. Little is not an elite center but is very underrated has had great production along with doing a lot of the little things well. Ladd has been a top 15 scorer for his position until this season and has been a tremendous face for this franchise since coming to Winnipeg. I agree he has been awful this year, I am sure most of it is injury related but I would bet his contract situation is also weighing in on his play.

I believe the LLW line could be a big part of a contending team if they had better supporting players. This mess totally falls on Chevy. Unfortanately, I think it is going to get more messy. I have zero confidence Chevy is going to handle the Ladd and Byfuglien contract situation in a favorable manner. Only 67 more days Chevy...what you gonna do?

 

[arby18]

How is Chevy not taking more of a brunt for this newfound realization by some that the Atlanta core wasn't good enough this whole time? It's not even something that I agree with, as I think this core would've been good enough to contend for playoffs every year if surrounded by league-average goaltending and a better supporting cast (more Wellwood's and less Wright's).

But lets assume for the sake of the argument that we all know now that the Atlanta Association was never good enough to get it done. Why isn't Chevy taking heat for keeping them all together?

 

[jiho]

How is Chevy not taking more of a brunt for this newfound realization by some that the Atlanta core wasn't good enough this whole time? It's not even something that I agree with, as I think this core would've been good enough to contend for playoffs every year if surrounded by league-average goaltending and a better supporting cast (more Wellwood's and less Wright's).

But lets assume for the sake of the argument that we all know that the Atlanta Association was never good enough to get it done. Why isn't Chevy taking heat for keeping them all together?

Exactly...all we heard year one was Chevy needs time to evaluate what he had but never did anything with the core....Chevy has appeared to have a very good job drafting but besides that all he has done is keep someone (Kane) who wanted to leave and get rid of someone (Stempniak) who wanted to stay.

 

[Thai jet*]

Jet Management hierarchy

Before last season, the Jets were not "top-10" in very much of anything.

Last season, the Jets were top 10 in 5v5 possession. Guess what. They were also top 10 in 5v5 save% (#9 at 0.928). They had a remarkable season, but while I don't think it was a "fluke", I just don't think the core of skaters was / is good enough to be a consistent contender, just like I don't think the goaltending is good enough. You and I will need to agree to disagree. Just remember that the Jets top 4-5 players are equivalent to a non-contender, not a contender....

Chevy made a mistake in signing Pavs to a long-term contract. Everyone gets that. As a fan, I would have been happy if he'd hit the jackpot with a player like Dubnyk. I just think that it's always a crapshoot to try to upgrade goaltending, and I would not have endorsed spending picks or prospects to try to nab one to try to boost this core.

Maybe he could have asked someone in the Jet hierarchy if he could hire Sean Burke and create our own great goalie.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Minny last year was worse than we are this year. They were getting worse as they went along. Yeo had 'lost the room'. It looked very much like he was about to be fired. The team was falling apart. They get good goaltending and look what happens!

When we had good goaltending last year we could compete with any team in the league ..... and win. In the playoffs we were badly hampered by injury. Even Anaheim players said they noticed some of our 'walking wounded' and targeted them as a result. In spite of that it was mediocre goaltending that lead to the sweep more than anything else.

Reasonably healthy and with reasonable playoff level goaltending I don't know how far we might have gone last year but we would have been competitive with any of the final 4.

There are lots of contributing factors to our poor play this year; penalties, poor special teams, lack of 60 minute effort, tough schedule but without good goaltending no team is going anywhere.

We can argue around in circles forever and it will come back to the idea that D&D by itself cannot get you past mediocrity, playoff bubble team. Chevy started with a pretty good group of young players to build around. It lacked the supporting cast. That is the bottom 6 Fs and bottom 2 D. Some would argue that it needed 1 or 2 so called elite or star players. The big glaring hole though was in net. There was nothing in the prospect pool to build with. We are now in danger of having just the opposite, a strong prospect pool and an aging out core group that is past its prime ..... and still inadequate goaltending. We are just going to replace one core group with another.

This very much this

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

However, the Jets were playing in a far, far weaker division.

But Noel does get too little respect, I'll give you that.

Yes, and this year's schedule has been terrible. And Noel had Jokinnen and Hainsey instead of Scheifele and Trouba, Wellwood instead of Perreault.

I'm not saying that we don't have an upgrade behind the bench but Noel wasn't as bad as he is made out to be. His teams didn't lead the league in penalties and his special teams were not dead last.

 

[puck stoppa]

Season is not over yet. Gotta do something vs the Preds and we still have a chance. I hope we don't get to good tho as I don't want Ladd resigned. But just wait till Pavs comes back and plays lights out to finish the year and gets an extension this summer, this place will blow up

 

[winnipegger]

I will personally decorate the MTS center in toilet paper if Pav is locked up long term. Seriously.

 

[broinwhyteridge]

Chevy did address goaltending within the context of draft and develop.

Unless you are willing to pay a price of actual assets and an NHL starter salary for a proven goalie all that is bouncing around for the taking are unproven guys, most of which will never become starters.

I don't see how this doesn't fall right into Chevy's wheelhouse.

 

[broinwhyteridge]

How is Chevy not taking more of a brunt for this newfound realization by some that the Atlanta core wasn't good enough this whole time? It's not even something that I agree with, as I think this core would've been good enough to contend for playoffs every year if surrounded by league-average goaltending and a better supporting cast (more Wellwood's and less Wright's).

But lets assume for the sake of the argument that we all know now that the Atlanta Association was never good enough to get it done. Why isn't Chevy taking heat for keeping them all together?

Hey, to be fair he's only had 4+ seasons to do his evaluation. Other GMs get that done in much less time, but what do we know?

 

[raideralex99]

Last year the Dallas Stars missed the playoffs by 7 points ... did they blow up the team???
No ... they add 3 vets G Antti Niemi, D Johnny Oduya, LW Patrick Sharp now they are the #1 in the NHL.