Post-Game Talk (GBU): Buffalo Sabres at Ottawa Senators 7:30PM 2/18/2020

[KiwiGriff]

Narrative?

He was one of the best 5v5 goal scorers in the NHL before he became a Sabre. He had a season with the Canes that was pretty much the same as the one he had with Jack. He doesn’t need to be with Jack to score.

There is no narrative. He is one of the best 5v5 goal scorers who is struggling this season.

He’s also been creating the same rates of HD chances, scoring chances, shots on goal etc as he did last season. But his shooting% is down. Whether its bad luck or lacking confidence he’s not producing as many goals 5v5.

It might help his confidence/luck if his coach didn’t do a lot of things to remove him from advantages offensive situations. Like removal from PP#1, like tonight when we pull the goalie and put out Mojo for the 6 on 4 instead of Skinner, rarely out in OT etc. Even double shift Jack from time to time with him. Thats what that tweet was talking about.

If you look at it logically you run the Skinner scenario through this series of thoughts:

- NMC and even if he wanted to go no one would pay for him.
- We have him for another seven years
- To have him earn his pay he needs to score goals
- Where will he most likely score goals? PP, Overtime, on the top line.
- In each of those three spots, would adding him in lead to the increase in Skinner’s performance being outweighed by the drop in scoring from whoever he replaces?
- OT, second line OT he’d do no worse than existing players. Doesn’t cut it with Eichel. PP, again he wouldn’t hurt the 2nd PP. On Jack’s line? You’d have to drop Reinhart to 2nd line centre. Hey we need one of those.
- Risks? Negligible for 2nd line OT and PP. Dropping Reinhart? Reinhart potentially drops to a 60ppg player instead of 70-80. Potentially also drags the 2nd line out of the mud.
- Upside? Skinner firing on all cylinders is 30-40 goals a player. No whole line apart from the top has managed to hit 30 yet.

summary? We’re stuck with him, try every f***ing thing to get him screaming along. If he does, that beats any downside.

 

[jBuds]

One of the things that draws me to coaching is the same thing that drives me insane.

15 minutes left in the third and Vesey takes the ice for his shift - like a bat out of hell. He’s positionally aware, flowing with the game, and intense as can possibly be.

how do you get that player for every shift of every game? If you can’t, can you get that player at the *beginning* of every shift of every game? some of his shifts every game?

If you know he has it in him to effectively move about, and be a contributor and at times a difference maker, what needs to change to induce that in perpetuity?

you can only try so much.

______

Brutal, inexcusable loss. Goaltending is not good. Breakdowns in the D zone are funny, in that they are almost too egregious and too long-lasting to believe as they unfold. It’s crazy.

my TV is broken - it flashes black non stop. I watched the recording with the tv menu screen up to suppress the flickering a bit. You would think the game meant something, right?

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

One of the things that draws me to coaching is the same thing that drives me insane.

15 minutes left in the third and Vesey takes the ice for his shift - like a bat out of hell. He’s positionally aware, flowing with the game, and intense as can possibly be.

how do you get that player for every shift of every game? If you can’t, can you get that player at the *beginning* of every shift of every game? some of his shifts every game?

If you know he has it in him to effectively move about, and be a contributor and at times a difference maker, what needs to change to induce that in perpetuity?

you can only try so much.

______

Brutal, inexcusable loss. Goaltending is not good. Breakdowns in the D zone are funny, in that they are almost too egregious and too long-lasting to believe as they unfold. It’s crazy.

my TV is broken - it flashes black non stop. I watched the recording with the tv menu screen up to suppress the flickering a bit. You would think the game meant something, right?

Regarding the bolded.....Vesey - and a few other players - apparently do not fear riding the pine, being a healthy scratch, sitting instead of playing, moving to the end of the bench, watching from the press box. They appear to have been gifted a playing slot. They are entitled to be in the line up.

Vesey, Sheary, are 2 examples of this. McCabe is another but on defense. No matter how bad he is or how much he screws up, there is no penalty. They don't have to earn their ice time. They are gifted it.

I know I am so very old school. Ralph and I would heartily disagree. But that's how I learned personally that unless I gave it my all every shift, and worked my ass off to minimize/eliminate mistakes and made plays, my ice time would decrease.

This ain't youth rec hockey where everyone needs to get as many puck touches as possible because every parent is paying the same fees.

 

[joshjull]

He isn’t scoring. Elite scorers score consistently. He is an opportunistic scorer who hasn’t scored in over a month plus. There was a reason the Canes did not want to commit to him for serious money. I think it is apparent why. He is not reliable. Yes when he scores it is at even strength more often than not, but most of the game is played at even strength. He is not fast enough to play in OT. Edgework aside, which is exceptional, he is an average to below average skater in speed and burst. He has a me first, shoot first, game ala EKane. When he is streaking he will put up goals. But his linemates won’t score more. It is either Skinner or bust. So what do you do? Take VO off Jacks line to get him going? Put him on the Power Play instead of VO or Sam or Risto which seems to be working? Get him a real center? Bit at 9 m per we are venting a lot of frustration at everyone but the guy who people said can score without elite centers.

Again, not directed at you, but I am at a loss how this guy can be part of the solution going forward when he is so inconsistent and doesn’t bring other elements that help when he is slumping. If we need to staple him to Jack, I think Jacks output goes down. Tough situation.

I think you’re working WAY too hard to diminish Skinner as a player.

If he was as selfish and useless as you argue he is when not scoring. Then he wouldn’t be out for pretty much the same amount of SCF/60 and HDCF/60 as Eichel has been. Skinner is also doing that with a two way and at times defensive deployment he;s not had. His OZ% of 54% is quite a change from the last 3 years with 67-76% OZS deployment.

He’s not a playmaker to be sure but he is very good at grinding out a cycle, working the walls and getting the puck to the net. He’s also very adept at stealing the puck.

He doesn’t have to play with Jack as a regular linemate. But some double shifts in game for Jack replacing Skinner’s center wouldn’t hurt. Not unlike earlier in the year when they replaced VO with Skinner for shifts late in periods to try to get a goal. Only this time Jack gets the extra shift and his line stays intact. Its not a coincidence Skinner scored a couple goals out with Jack in those situations.

Skinner could get a more an offensively skewed deployment like he normally does (mid 60s or up instead of 54%). If thats not going to happen at least put him with guys who have skills he would mesh well with like the members of LOG.


It would also make a lot more sense to put Skinner out for 6 on 4 situations with our goalie pulled like tonight. Instead of putting Mojo out there. Even with the drought Skinner has almost 3X as many 5v5.

I get if you want to keep Risto on the PP. But I don’t think he does all that much outside fo the occasional puck retrieval. The 3 guys at the top of the umbrella are the driving force of PP1 with Sam occasionally popping out to join them. Our PP is 17th. So its not like we would be breaking up a well oiled machine.

There are a lot of things I‘ve listed to better use Skinner in offensive situations that don’t require him to be Jack’s regular linemates. Its as if our coach forgot Skinner is an offensive player . So he doesn’t use him that way.

 

[Tatanka]

I think you’re working WAY too hard to diminish Skinner as a player.

If he was as selfish and useless as you argue he is when not scoring. Then he wouldn’t be out for pretty much the same amount of SCF/60 and HDCF/60 as Eichel has been. Skinner is also doing that with a two way and at times defensive deployment he;s not had. His OZ% of 54% is quite a change from the last 3 years with 67-76% OZS deployment.

He’s not a playmaker to be sure but he is very good at grinding out a cycle, working the walls and getting the puck to the net. He’s also very adept at stealing the puck.

He doesn’t have to play with Jack as a regular linemate. But some double shifts in game for Jack replacing Skinner’s center wouldn’t hurt. Not unlike earlier in the year when they replaced VO with Skinner for shifts late in periods to try to get a goal. Only this time Jack gets the extra shift and his line stays intact. Its not a coincidence Skinner scored a couple goals out with Jack in those situations.

Skinner could get a more an offensively skewed deployment like he normally does (mid 60s or up instead of 54%). If thats not going to happen at least put him with guys who have skills he would mesh well with like the members of LOG.


It would also make a lot more sense to put Skinner out for 6 on 4 situations with our goalie pulled like tonight. Instead of putting Mojo out there. Even with the drought Skinner has almost 3X as many 5v5.

I get if you want to keep Risto on the PP. But I don’t think he does all that much outside fo the occasional puck retrieval. The 3 guys at the top of the umbrella are the driving force of PP1 with Sam occasionally popping out to join them. Our PP is 17th. So its not like we would be breaking up a well oiled machine.

There are a lot of things I‘ve listed to better use Skinner in offensive situations that don’t require him to be Jack’s regular linemates. Its as if our coach forgot Skinner is an offensive player . So he doesn’t use him that way.

I acknowledge his achievements but am objective in my assessment of what he brings to a team. I am more concerned with what we are to do with him if they can’t find the OZ deployments or double shift Jack or get a serviceable pivot.

 

[Hashbrown77]

Skinners scoring or not scoring has nothing to do with a bad team dropping 7 on you. The goaltending on this team has been below average for YEARS now.

 

[Royisgone]

What is the battle? To sap one of your best goal scorers of all his confidence?

The battle is between Ralph and Botterill. It's Ralph's way of saying "I don't like what you're giving me," I think.

As an organization, the misuse of Skinner all season is a fireable offense for all involved, including Ralph, who seems to get left off the hook for some reason by most fans.

 

[Royisgone]

Skinners scoring or not scoring has nothing to do with a bad team dropping 7 on you. The goaltending on this team has been below average for YEARS now.

Can't both Skinner be misused and Carter Hutton suck at the same time?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Hutton is an AHL goalie at this point in his career. He can't be playing in Buffalo next season.

 

[OkimLom]

I acknowledge his achievements but am objective in my assessment of what he brings to a team. I am more concerned with what we are to do with him if they can’t find the OZ deployments or double shift Jack or get a serviceable pivot.

I get you’re worried but everything you have said falls in the “talk to the coach” department. I think your beef is with the coach not utilizing Skinner in ways to maximize his abilities.

 

[Hasekperreault23]

A few random thoughts.Iam no goalie coach guru or know much about goaltending however I have never at any level seen a goalie lose sight of the puck as much as Hutton.Its unbelievable really.Another thought is as someone who doesn't live in Buffalo but Windsor Ontario I can't believe the organization which has a billionaire owner and a great fanbase cant Get a coach or GM to save their life.They should let Ralph run hockey operations and hire the Hunters as GM and coach.This organization will keep struggling till it gets its management straight.I know most know this but until this happens we will struggle with poor asset management

 

[OkimLom]

A few random thoughts.Iam no goalie coach guru or know much about goaltending however I have never at any level seen a goalie lose sight of the puck as much as Hutton.Its unbelievable really.Another thought is as someone who doesn't live in Buffalo but Windsor Ontario I can't believe the organization which has a billionaire owner and a great fanbase cant Get a coach or GM to save their life.They should let Ralph run hockey operations and hire the Hunters as GM and coach.This organization will keep struggling till it gets its management straight.I know most know this but until this happens we will struggle with poor asset management

If you are hiring Ralph for hockey operations, you are doing so to get Pegulas out of the picture, and because you trust Ralph's vision for the organization. You don't tell him Ralph who he's hiring unless you want to relive Patty L 2.0 and pretty much make him useless. If you trust Ralph, you have to trust HIM to make the right hire.

 

[joshjull]

I acknowledge his achievements but am objective in my assessment of what he brings to a team. I am more concerned with what we are to do with him if they can’t find the OZ deployments or double shift Jack or get a serviceable pivot.

Fair enough.

 

[Hasekperreault23]

If you are hiring Ralph for hockey operations, you are doing so to get Pegulas out of the picture, and because you trust Ralph's vision for the organization. You don't tell him Ralph who he's hiring unless you want to relive Patty L 2.0 and pretty much make him useless. If you trust Ralph, you have to trust HIM to make the right hire.

I meant what I would do or what I would like to see happen.Not telling Ralph nothing it's what I would like to see

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

Gosh darn it!

that man is seething, this job was over his head from day 1, he made an atrocious trade and will never recover from it as a sabre

it would be a favor to him to put him out of his misery so he could step back and reset himself

 

[Hasek]

I'm going to watch the Brett Hull no goal on loop for about 4 hours to make myself feel better.

 

[oldgoalie]

Hutton still on the team today?
Then still not watching, or buying in that this management knows what the f*** they are doing.

 

[brian_griffin]

For the last 5 years every opportunity this francise gets to take a step forward, they take one backwards. Its predictable at this point. Hey, on the bright side, we have yet another 8th overall pick to look forward to.....lol

There's something to be said about consistency...

One of the things that draws me to coaching is the same thing that drives me insane.

15 minutes left in the third and Vesey takes the ice for his shift - like a bat out of hell. He’s positionally aware, flowing with the game, and intense as can possibly be.

how do you get that player for every shift of every game? If you can’t, can you get that player at the *beginning* of every shift of every game? some of his shifts every game?

If you know he has it in him to effectively move about, and be a contributor and at times a difference maker, what needs to change to induce that in perpetuity?

you can only try so much.

______

Brutal, inexcusable loss. Goaltending is not good. Breakdowns in the D zone are funny, in that they are almost too egregious and too long-lasting to believe as they unfold. It’s crazy.

my TV is broken - it flashes black non stop. I watched the recording with the tv menu screen up to suppress the flickering a bit. You would think the game meant something, right?

and as @littletonhockeycoach noted, it drives me crazy too. I see the same thing. He'll go behind the net, with or without the puck, and battle all the way into the corner and back, all along the end board arc, and either come up with the puck or retain possession, depending on whether he had the puck to begin with, and then he'll pop it out for a good scoring chance.

Which is why, in the roster speculation thread, I was OK with re-signing him as a "last resort" if no better talent can be brought in to replace him (as opposed to Sheary, who will rarely give that effort / doesn't have the board / puck battle skills, and has a hard time staying upright for a full shift).

=====
@littletonhockeycoach - OT, but your town made national news earlier this week with the "smash and grab" robbery with the pickup truck at the bar/restaurant.

And other times, it's nothing close to that effort.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

There's something to be said about consistency...

and as @littletonhockeycoach noted, it drives me crazy too. I see the same thing. He'll go behind the net, with or without the puck, and battle all the way into the corner and back, all along the end board arc, and either come up with the puck or retain possession, depending on whether he had the puck to begin with, and then he'll pop it out for a good scoring chance.

Which is why, in the roster speculation thread, I was OK with re-signing him as a "last resort" if no better talent can be brought in to replace him (as opposed to Sheary, who will rarely give that effort / doesn't have the board / puck battle skills, and has a hard time staying upright for a full shift).

=====
@littletonhockeycoach - OT, but your town made national news earlier this week with the "smash and grab" robbery with the pickup truck at the bar/restaurant.

And other times, it's nothing close to that effort.

LoL! I regularly patronize that specific station and drive past it's location nearly every day!

In case anyone is wondering, I don't own a minivan...... At least, not anymore! LoL!!!

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Hutton still on the team today?
Then still not watching, or buying in that this management knows what the f*ck they are doing.

They need two goalies to practice.

Just don't play him anymore.....

Ralph suffers from veterans are always better disorder.........

Think about what it would be like if Sobatka wasn't on LTIR......

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

The battle is between Ralph and Botterill. It's Ralph's way of saying "I don't like what you're giving me," I think.

As an organization, the misuse of Skinner all season is a fireable offense for all involved, including Ralph, who seems to get left off the hook for some reason by most fans.

Ralph's bench and game management abilities are clearly sub-par for the NHL level. He should be selling used cars at Al Maroone Ford. I'm tired of the guy.

Another Botterill ef up.....

 

[Royisgone]

that man is seething, this job was over his head from day 1, he made an atrocious trade and will never recover from it as a sabre

it would be a favor to him to put him out of his misery so he could step back and reset himself

You have to wonder what was going through Botterill's mind when that video clip was shot. Was his frustration with the team itself? Or with his own personal career?

Was he thinking "Damn, this team has problems" or was he thinking "Damn, my NHL career has problems" ???

Probably a little bit of both.

 

[Royisgone]

Hutton still on the team today?
Then still not watching, or buying in that this management knows what the f*ck they are doing.

All kidding aside, there is usually a goal per game or 2 scored against Hutton where having a pylon in the net would be an improvement. Or at least a wooden cutout in the shape of a goaltender.

I'm talking about the odd ways Hutton likes to completely misread plays, pull himself ridiculously out of position, and end up in really weird positions on the ice at the side of the net behind the goal line, way off to the side outside the crease, facing the wrong way (facing the net) and things like this.

A wooden cutout that can't move would actually stop a few of the pucks Hutton lets in.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

All kidding aside, there is usually a goal per game or 2 scored against Hutton where having a pylon in the net would be an improvement. Or at least a wooden cutout in the shape of a goaltender.

I'm talking about the odd ways Hutton likes to completely misread plays, pull himself ridiculously out of position, and end up in really weird positions on the ice at the side of the net behind the goal line, way off to the side outside the crease, facing the wrong way (facing the net) and things like this.

A wooden cutout that can't move would actually stop a few of the pucks Hutton lets in.

You are smack dab on target with your assessment. Hutton is unable to accurately anticipate the play - where the puck is headed - in advance. So he cheats. And then doesn't have the skill set any more to physically neutralize his bad decision making. Plus, he can't find the darn thing when it's dropped down in his feet.

I as watching Francouz closely yesterday.... Frankie's strength is that he is usually a step ahead of the puck carrier/shooter and reads the play fantastically well. So he is near always in position to make the save.

Same goes for Dubynk last night vs Markham. Markham's vulnerabilities were evident during last night's shoot out where the Wild just ate Markham up when he pre-committed to the wrong move.

Hutton is so far behind the play most of the time that his D attempts to compensate for him which only makes things worse.

It's clear that his teammates do not have a high level of confidence in their goaltender........