Brooks: No reason to believe NHL’s strong PED record is not legit

[Fugu]

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/legit_reason_to_believe_nhl_strong_h9fvMXpd5KkjmLo53LR2SJ

But there is no reason to suspect PEDs are a problem for the NHL or the NHLPA, which negotiated more expansive procedures, including playoff and offseason testing, into the Collective Bargaining Agreement that ended the 2012-13 lockout.
It’s not that hockey is an inherently morally superior operation. Hockey’s issue has been with painkillers and sleeping pills. The breadth of the problem likely will become more apparent as the wrongful death suit against the NHL filed by the family of the late Derek Boogaard moves through the legal system.
No doubt overdue, the NHL and NHLPA did address the matter of controlling player access to prescription drugs and sleep aids in crafting new procedures that went into effect at the beginning of last season.

Just a note that any discussion about alleged/specific use of PEDs or prescriptions drugs involving specific player names has to be qualified by a link to a credible media source.

Click to read more...

 

[RainbowDash]

I don't believe PEDs isn't in ANY professional sport. I just believe PEDs just become more and more undetectable and/or easier to fool/rig testing.

I don't find PEDs morally wrong. PEDs can be used correctly thus preventing all possible harm done.

I do however believe that painkillers and sleep aids are severe problems that everyone seems to believe are completely harmless.

 

[Freudian]

Anyone believing that hockey players, who put on massive amounts of muscle between their teens and their mid twenties, don't use PEDs is naive.

There are plenty of players who are in the area between minor league and low end NHL. Of course they are going to be highly motivated to use whatever means they have to make it to the big league. It's human nature.

Of course NHL knows this and if they wanted to they could put a stop to it. You just have to make it much riskier to cheat (unannounced tests twelve months of the year and very lengthy suspensions if caught). They don't and they can point to (Brooks makes me laugh sometimes) "NHL's strong PED record". It's like getting rid of all cops and claim that there are no crimes reported.

Duh.

 

[Wingsfan2965*]

Anyone believing that hockey players, who put on massive amounts of muscle between their teens and their mid twenties, don't use PEDs is naive.

Even more naive to be ignorant of the term "bulk".

If you have trainers who know what the hell they're doing, and you're willing to put in the necessary effort, gaining muscle over 2-3 years is possible.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Seriously Inadequate

Brooksie, paraphrasing John Tortorella, manages to misdirect credit to the NHL and NHLPA for the results of long-existing programs in youth hockey throughout North America:

QMJHL since 2004:

http://theqmjhl.ca/article/the-queb...-lead-with-an-anti-doping-and-antidrug-policy

Yet the initiative was started earlier in 2004 by the Quebec Midget AAA Hockey League. Read the following paying attention to the numbers:

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v04/n167/a09.html

Quebec Midget AAA has had various anti-drug programs going back to its formative years.

Since 2004 such programs are commonplace across Canada and the USA, targeting PED use at the mid teen years.

All the faceless youth hockey people should be getting the credit and not the NHL and NHLPA who only reap the benefits.

 

[Zine]

NHL drug policy =


KHL drug testing, while still a joke, is slightly more strict and players are getting caught. Anton Belov (recently signed with Edmonton) and Maxim Rybin (played juniors in CHL) most notably.
No reason to believe it would be any different in the NHL.


http://www.allhockey.ru/news/122170/
http://www.allhockey.ru/news/122165/

 

[candyman82]

No reason at all. Except for, you know, common sense.

 

[Seth Lake]

Wasn't Sean Hill suspended a few seasons ago for PED's?

 

[Quo]

Economist - Doping in Sport: Athlete's Dilemma | Sportsmen who take drugs may be prisoners of a different game

The simplest game in game theory is “prisoner’s dilemmaâ€. In the athletes’ version, both players will be better off if neither takes drugs, but because neither can trust the other, both have to take them to make sure they have a chance of winning.

Introducing an authority figure, in what is known as an inspection game, should deal with this. If the inspector tests the athletes, and the athletes trust the inspection process to catch cheats, fear of getting caught should keep them on the straight and narrow. Except that is not what seems to happen in the real world. Clearly, athletes do not think they will get caught. And Dr Buechel and his colleagues think they know why.

In a working paper they started circulating among their peers earlier this year, they suggest that the real game being played here has yet another party in it—the fans and sponsors who pay for everything. In their view, the inspector has several reasons to skimp on testing. One is the cost. Another is the disruption it causes to the already complicated lives of the athletes. A third, though, is fear of how customers would react if more thorough testing did reveal near-universal cheating, which anecdotal evidence suggests that in some sports it might. Better to test sparingly, and expose from time to time what is apparently the odd bad apple, rather than do the job thoroughly and find the whole barrel is spoiled and your sport has suddenly vanished in a hailstorm of disqualifications.

If these game theorists are right, the ramifications of a more stringent testing regimen for PED's may be very risky for certain sports. I think Brooks may be right about hockey though.

Wasn't Sean Hill suspended a few seasons ago for PED's?

Yup. Got 20 games in 2007. Bryan Berard got busted in 2006 on an international level, no NHL consequences. Other than that though...

 

[Killion]

Yup. Got 20 games in 2007.

... while with the Islanders. Signed thereafter by Minnesota. Had been taking Doctor prescribed & NHL approved (as in not on their banned list) testosterone boosting anabolic steroids however, he tested positive for another that was on the banned list. Claimed he'd been unaware he'd ingested it, entirely possible, as the banned substance is often added to health supplements so its a cautionary tale. Read labels.

 

[Kitten Mittons]

Off-season testing is interesting. I wonder if it was the NHLPA or the GMs who insisted on it.

 

[Bert Marshall days]

Sean Hill was one tough MFer. Saw him destroy forwards in his own end. Juiced or not the guy was pure nasty.

 

[mouser]

Economist - Doping in Sport: Athlete's Dilemma | Sportsmen who take drugs may be prisoners of a different game



If these game theorists are right, the ramifications of a more stringent testing regimen for PED's may be very risky for certain sports. I think Brooks may be right about hockey though.
:

Scientific American ran a great article in 2008 on game theory for professional cyclists considering whether to dope or not. This followed the Floyd Landis doping scandal.

There's an abbreviated version online here:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-doping-game-payoffs

Boiled down it argues that game theory says its in the cyclers' best financial interests to use PED's because the potential rewards outweigh the potential risks of being caught. I imagine that's true across all levels of professional sports where PED's can be the difference between players making the major leagues, staying in those leagues, or securing a significant pay raise on your next contract.

 

[MarkGio]

I love the game theory application. What situation can't be related to game theory? Very good links so far. I posted a few not too long ago that I'll add again to this thread.

Here's an article about pain medication in the NHL:

According to a former minor-leaguer, painkiller use may be even more widespread in the lower leagues than it is in the NHL. At the same time, said Justin Bourne, who played in the AHL and the ECHL, they are “100-per-cent essential.”

“It’s not like you can just take them away for most guys, a lot of players need them to be able to keep playing,” said Bourne, who now writes and blogs about the game and recently recounted his own experience with oxycodone.

Here's another one about sleeping pills:

So you take a sleeping pill. But then, said Cammalleri, “next time the one sleeping pill doesn’t work. Then, the next time, the one stimulant doesn’t work so it becomes two. Then it becomes four. The old school, of being afraid that guys are going to sit in the bar until 6 a.m., it’s really not the case any more. Guys go for the odd beer, but trust me, it’s too competitive in terms of jobs. There’s too much at stake. You’d be out of the league in two or three years. Period,” he said.

Here's some links testifying the use of PED's:​

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/laraque-drugs/

"First, you just have to notice how some talented players will experience an efficiency loss as well as a weight loss every four years, those years being the ones the Winter Olympics are held," he wrote.

"In the following season they make a strong comeback; they manage a mysterious return to form."

http://hockeyadventure.com/2007/10/1...-nhl-part-two/

And in recent years, we’ve also heard allegations about steroids and stimulants from former NHLers like Dave Morrissette, Stephane Quintal, and Andrei Nazarov. Morrissette, who only played 11 NHL games with Montreal, claimed steroids helped him bulk up as a fighter but also made him more susceptible to injuries because his frame couldn’t support the extra mass. Quintal suggested 40 percent of NHLers have used stimulants to get whipped up for games (mostly over-the-counter products like Sudafed), while Nazarov claimed 99 percent of enforcers use steroids. The latter claim, in particular, saw Nazarov’s credibility being attacked, with talk of sour grapes.

Here's some links criticizing the NHL's testing program:​

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/stor...-wada-nhl.html

Currently the NHL allows players to be tested up to three times a season, but none of those tests can occur in the playoffs or during the summer.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/01/11...n-pounds-radar

"It doesn't catch many players because when and what it tests for are nowhere near the stringent measures needed to catch cheaters."

 

[Burner Account]

Was actually having a PED discussion at dinner last night.

I think PED's are in every sport. But I think ignorance is bliss. Look at MLB.

 

[MarkGio]

Was actually having a PED discussion at dinner last night.

I think PED's are in every sport. But I think ignorance is bliss. Look at MLB.

That's pretty funny because I had this conversation with a buddy not too long ago and he said even in Midgets hockey he saw PEDs. Not like body-building steroids, just ways to cut fat, get lean and get energy, especially when your're sore and beat-up. And of course the pain killers for the next morning.

 

[Burner Account]

That's pretty funny because I had this conversation with a buddy not too long ago and he said even in Midgets hockey he saw PEDs. Not like body-building steroids, just ways to cut fat, get lean and get energy, especially when your're sore and beat-up. And of course the pain killers for the next morning.

With the amount of money that can be earned in a professional sports career, most of those who are serious about making the show are going to do whatever they can do get an edge (not necessarily PEDs or drugs). As one of my friends always says "ain't cheatin', ain't tryin".

 

[Fugu]

I would rather see PEDs allowed and sleeping pills/painkillers/"cortisone" disallowed.

I think this is an important piece of this debate that's missing. Natural biological products aren't necessarily harmful. What upsets people is that someone may get an edge over a competitor who's NOT doing the same. (In cycling, it would to show that the main contenders weren't on a level playing field.)

Limited use of steroids (anabolic) actually accelerates healing and not in a harmful manner, whereas a corticosteroids appear to Pejorative Slur the healing process, in spite of helping with inflammation (and thus, pain).

This is probably a personal preference issue, but I too would favor open PED use as long as it's under medical supervision. That alone would weed out some of the mis-use since drugs are regulated for approved use only. The duration of treatment and amounts would be regulated. I know this opens up a can of worms though IF there's a contingent of people who have no interest in the use of PEDs at the highest competitive levels.

 

[Burner Account]

I would rather see PEDs allowed and sleeping pills/painkillers/"cortisone" disallowed.

Interesting that this should come up today.

Take it for what it's worth, but Travis Yost of HockeyBuzz claims to have prescription history of Derek Boogaard.

https://twitter.com/TravisHeHateMe/status/361905523991379968

@TravisHeHateMe
National Hockey League / clubs made no effort to control Derek Boogaard's substance abuse. They endorsed it.

This supposed history can be found here.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=53092#.Ufa9DI2mgiB

 

[MarkGio]

I would rather see PEDs allowed and sleeping pills/painkillers/"cortisone" disallowed.

Taking away the sleeping pills would be cruel. Maybe if players had a minimum amount of time between checking into a hotel and the morning skate, it would be OK looking at fighting sleeping pill use.

The painkillers would be cruel too, and it would change the game quite a bit. Very few guys would be in the playoffs playing while injured. Very few guys would be blocking shots, getting in the dirty areas, and dropping the gloves. I don't see it happening.

I think certain PEDs are unreasonable. Elaborate blood transfusion stuff and PEDs and drugs that make going to the gym less frequent/intense really take the athleticism out of the game and replace it with bio-chemistry techniques.

 

[LadyStanley]

Taking away the sleeping pills would be cruel. Maybe if players had a minimum amount of time between checking into a hotel and the morning skate, it would be OK looking at fighting sleeping pill use.

They do. New CBA stipulates like 8 hours after (overnight) landing before any organized event (regardless of home or away games).

 

[Fugu]

Taking away the sleeping pills would be cruel. Maybe if players had a minimum amount of time between checking into a hotel and the morning skate, it would be OK looking at fighting sleeping pill use.

The painkillers would be cruel too, and it would change the game quite a bit. Very few guys would be in the playoffs playing while injured. Very few guys would be blocking shots, getting in the dirty areas, and dropping the gloves. I don't see it happening.

I think certain PEDs are unreasonable. Elaborate blood transfusion stuff and PEDs and drugs that make going to the gym less frequent/intense really take the athleticism out of the game and replace it with bio-chemistry techniques.

More tightly regulated? Pain killers are designed to treat acute symptoms, not to become a way of life. There's an incredible amount of controversy in the medical profession on just how to get pain killer prescriptions under control, due to the large number of overdoses and suicides associated with chronic use. Some states have gone so far as to only allow pain doctors to prescribe pain killers.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Net Benefits

I think this is an important piece of this debate that's missing. Natural biological products aren't necessarily harmful. What upsets people is that someone may get an edge over a competitor who's NOT doing the same. (In cycling, it would to show that the main contenders weren't on a level playing field.)

Limited use of steroids (anabolic) actually accelerates healing and not in a harmful manner, whereas a corticosteroids appear to Pejorative Slur the healing process, in spite of helping with inflammation (and thus, pain).

This is probably a personal preference issue, but I too would favor open PED use as long as it's under medical supervision. That alone would weed out some of the mis-use since drugs are regulated for approved use only. The duration of treatment and amounts would be regulated. I know this opens up a can of worms though IF there's a contingent of people who have no interest in the use of PEDs at the highest competitive levels.

Staying healthy or in shape is a large part of any athletic competition. There is a concern that this aspect would be removed to a large extent from competition. Reading the opponent, recognizing weaknesses, managing competition time, etc are key elements of various sports, notably boxing. Already there is a shift away from the athlete to coaches, trainers, medical staff and others as deciding factors. Will steroids, if limited to controlled use of anabolics, take away more control from the athletes?

One of the issues with data about anabolic steroids is that the data about benefits is murky because the products are banned. Pinning down the actual cost and the long term consequences is a challenge. As for benefits, they are hard to define. A one or two game difference in the return date puts us back generations where athletes would be rushed back into action before they were ready.

 

[MarkGio]

More tightly regulated? Pain killers are designed to treat acute symptoms, not to become a way of life. There's an incredible amount of controversy in the medical profession on just how to get pain killer prescriptions under control, due to the large number of overdoses and suicides associated with chronic use. Some states have gone so far as to only allow pain doctors to prescribe pain killers.

The general public is one thing, but these guys have the most hazardous job imaginable. Unfortunately I can't find any information as to how many players get injured, but I would estimate there are probably 10 lost time injuries (man-game lost) per team each year.

I would then estimate there to be one injury, whether soft tissue or strain/sprain, each game per team. Without pain killers the man-games lost would increase significantly because players couldn't play through injuries as much.

 

[Fugu]

The general public is one thing, but these guys have the most hazardous job imaginable. Unfortunately I can't find any information as to how many players get injured, but I would estimate there are probably 10 lost time injuries (man-game lost) per team each year.

I would then estimate there to be one injury, whether soft tissue or strain/sprain, each game per team. Without pain killers the man-games lost would increase significantly because players couldn't play through injuries as much.

I understand all that, however chronic use of pain killers simply leads to an increasing use of pain killers. The effect of a smaller/standard dosage diminishes over time, so you start with two pills, and that becomes four and then you have to take something stronger, and in combination with yet another type of pain killer and so on. This is how people become addicted to pain killers.