Brett Hull post 1995

[whcanuck]

From 1989-1992, Brett Hull was quite literally a goal scoring machine. For three straight seasons he absolutely torched the league, scoring at least 70 goals including that mind-boggling 86 goal romp in 1990-91.

After the 1991-92 season, he still put up big totals, but not as otherworldly as those three years, scoring 54 in '92-'93 and 57 in '93-'94. Still huge goal totals, but a little down from the '89-'92 stretch.

After 1993-94, he sort of settled into a very good stretch of his career, but maybe not quite elite. The strike year of '94-'95 he was on a 50 goal pace but we'll never know how many he could have scored in a full season. He hit the 40 and 30 goal total several times the rest of his career but never hit 50 again.

Did he not have the linemates he had in those big years when Oates and Janney were feeding him the puck? Obviously he was still an excellent goal scorer in Dallas, but that team played pretty tight defense under Ken Hitchcock and the dead puck era was in full swing so it was going to be pretty tough to get much more than 30 or 40 goals there. By the time he was in Detroit he was 37 years old and not getting the big minutes anymore.

What are your guys' thoughts on the last 10 years or so of Hull's career?

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[The Panther]

From 1989-1992, Brett Hull was quite literally a goal scoring machine.

I'm not going to point out the mis-use of the word "literally"... Whoops! I did.

What are your guys' thoughts on the last 10 years or so of Hull's career?

Well, as you said, he was older plus dead-puck era. I personally say the DPE started in summer '97. If you look at Hull's stats, that's exactly the point after which he never has another 40-goal season (though he was pacing towards it in '99 if not for injury).

Another thing about Hull is that he was older than some people realize. Age-wise, he was just about old enough to have started his career in 1982-83. He was a bit Esposito-like in that it took him some time to build up to his goal-scoring peak years. But guys who do that (also like Esposito) tend to then fall off that peak rather quickly when age + circumstances suddenly become factors.

Overall, I think he did extremely well as a goal-scorer in his last 10 years or so.

Akin to Mike Gartner, once Hull could no longer put up big goal-numbers, he walked away. He was still 35th in goals in 2004, which is more than good for a guy who was pushin' 40 by season's end. Looking back at his 2003-04, he scored only 4 goals in the final 22 regular season games (and 3 in 12 playoff games), which was probably his signal that he was nearly done.

(Too bad about that little blip with Phoenix.)

 

[sr edler]

1990–91 is an interesting season because that's the only season they had Scott Stevens. That's also the 86 goal season, by the way. St. Louis finished 1 point shy of the Presidents' Trophy (having quite a roster even outside of Hull), but then in the playoffs they had serious problems with Detroit (in the first round) and then of course Minnesota. Of course really bad trade happens mid season when Courtnall, Ronning and Momesso are traded for Quinn & Butcher, and the team loses scoring depth & forward grit.

I didn't watch the Blues then because I was 10 and lived overseas where games weren't televised, but looking at it from a retrospective perspective two points arises.

1) team was built around a high scoring winger (Hull) which feels a lot like the late 00s/early 10s Washington Capitals before they solved a depth problem at center ice (Kuznetsov, and to a lesser degree also Eller).

2) Hull was not quick on his feet and not great defensively, to put it kindly. In 90–91 he was +23 (best on the team along with Stevens), but in both his 70 goal seasons (right before and after the 86 goal season) he was a minus player on a team with a positive goal differential. Perhaps too much run and gunning took place on expense of a more responsible overall game?

Hull on Dallas and Detroit had a completely different role than in St. Louis. Those teams weren't even close to being built around him, he was just there to ship in and tip the scales in deciding moments.

 

[JackSlater]

I don't think it is difficult to understand why Hull fell from his peak. He peaked pretty late in terms of age for a goal scorer, so by the time he was nearly 30 he was dropping off. This makes even more sense when you consider that Hull was never particularly concerned about gym work. He also lost Oates during the 1992 season.

Post peak Hull was still a very effective player. Hull was a very smart player, and even though he was slow he still knew where he should be. That applies both offensively and defensively. The grinding style of the late 90s and early 2000s probably didn't suit him very well but he was still a good player until he was 40. I think that Hull in the 2000s was probably one of the best complementary players in the NHL. A great depth option if you gave him the right support on his line.

 

[frontsfan2005]

I wonder how Hull's numbers would've been if Gretzky re-signed with the Blues rather than with the Rangers.

I know they didn't put up the numbers many were expecting when Wayne was acquired by St. Louis, however, both were still pretty productive (overall, Wayne had 37 pts in 31 games, Hull had 15 goals and 32 pts in 30 games). If Wayne signs with the Blues, would that be enough for Hull to reach 50 goals in 96-97 (he scored 43)? Instead of crashing down to 27 goals in 97-98, does the Gretzky factor keep Hull up at the 35-40 level?

Hull managed 32 goals in 60 games with Dallas in 98-99 (44 goal pace, would've tied him for 2nd in NHL). His numbers slipped in 99-00, but he rebounded with 11 goals in 24 playoff games. He scored 39 goals in 00-01, then managed seasons of 30, 37 and 25 with Detroit.

Post 1995 (aged 31-40), he scored 299 goals in 681 games, clearly a step down from his 1989-1995 numbers, but still very productive. He added 45 playoff goals in 123 games and was a big factor for two Stanley Cup wins.

 

[blogofmike]

1992-93 is a relative drop-off. Still a 50+ scorer, but a huge minus on a winning team. If you knew how big 1993 was going to be (most 50-goal scorers, most 100-point scorers) you would think he was going to push for 93 goals.

 

[DannyGallivan]

From 1989-1992, Brett Hull was quite literally a goal scoring machine. For three straight seasons he absolutely torched the league, scoring at least 70 goals including that mind-boggling 86 goal romp in 1990-91.

After the 1991-92 season, he still put up big totals, but not as otherworldly as those three years, scoring 54 in '92-'93 and 57 in '93-'94. Still huge goal totals, but a little down from the '89-'92 stretch.

After 1993-94, he sort of settled into a very good stretch of his career, but maybe not quite elite. The strike year of '94-'95 he was on a 50 goal pace but we'll never know how many he could have scored in a full season. He hit the 40 and 30 goal total several times the rest of his career but never hit 50 again.

Did he not have the linemates he had in those big years when Oates and Janney were feeding him the puck? Obviously he was still an excellent goal scorer in Dallas, but that team played pretty tight defense under Ken Hitchcock and the dead puck era was in full swing so it was going to be pretty tough to get much more than 30 or 40 goals there. By the time he was in Detroit he was 37 years old and not getting the big minutes anymore.

What are your guys' thoughts on the last 10 years or so of Hull's career?

Hull was a chubby, lazy chain smoker who had absolutely amazing genetics thanks to Papa Golden Jet.

If you added Mark Scheifele or Gary Roberts work ethic and conditioning with his natural skills... they would be saying "Wayne, Mario and Brett" for all time (at least as far as goal scoring is concerned).

 

[tony d]

In my early hockey watching days he was quite a good player. Seems like when he got into his 30's and goal scoring started to wane so did he. Still a very good player and one of the best of the 90's.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Hull was a chubby, lazy chain smoker who had absolutely amazing genetics thanks to Papa Golden Jet.

If you added Mark Scheifele or Gary Roberts work ethic and conditioning with his natural skills... they would be saying "Wayne, Mario and Brett" for all time (at least as far as goal scoring is concerned).

chubby and lazy, i know. but i've never heard chain smoker before. do you have a source?

ironically, hull and roberts were fat and lazy together in moncton. roberts didn't become roberts until he had to come back basically from the dead. i wonder if they used to smoke together between lobster rolls and practice?

 

[DannyGallivan]

chubby and lazy, i know. but i've never heard chain smoker before. do you have a source?

ironically, hull and roberts were fat and lazy together in moncton. roberts didn't become roberts until he had to come back basically from the dead. i wonder if they used to smoke together between lobster rolls and practice?

Personal eye-witness account at a Winnipeg bar in '94 after a Jets/Blues game. I was sitting at the bar shoulder to shoulder with Phil Housley, while Hull was on the other side of Housley. They were smoking non-stop (a buddy of mine asked me - as a joke - to ask Housley if I could buy a smoke off of him for a quarter. I refused).

 

[tarheelhockey]

If Hull had always been that player, we'd remember him as a smart, skilled sniper. But it's hard to look at that guy chugging around the ice looking for close-in shots and not compare him to his 25-year-old self flying around the ice.

 

[Mulletman]

One thing that struck me was how damn motivated Brett Hull could be when he chased down a milestone. Back in 2003 from November 19th to December 8th Hull scored 10 goals in 11 games. Those 10 goals took him from 722 to 732 career goals so he could pass Dionne who had 731. Then Hull lost his motivation and went goalless for the next 20 straight games. And he only had 9 goals in his last 53 regular season games that season.

 

[EpochLink]

Personal eye-witness account at a Winnipeg bar in '94 after a Jets/Blues game. I was sitting at the bar shoulder to shoulder with Phil Housley, while Hull was on the other side of Housley. They were smoking non-stop (a buddy of mine asked me - as a joke - to ask Housley if I could buy a smoke off of him for a quarter. I refused).

Was that the old BCW's bar? My uncle used to be a bartender there and he saw several Jets players there from time to time.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Was that the old BCW's bar? My uncle used to be a bartender there and he saw several Jets players there from time to time.

No. That particular situation was at the old Grape's on Main, across from Earls on Main. That was cool because it was a relatively small venue, packed with players from both teams.

I used to hang out at Norma Jean's (later renamed Co Co Nuts) in the early 90's and the Jets and players from other teams would flock there as well. I have a few stories... taking Chelio's drink by accident (it was only water - the health nut - so I was eager to give it back to him), Keith Tkachuk bouncing off the walls drunk, and some things I probably shouldn't mention.

 

[Sentinel]

Overall I think that Hull gets underrated. One of the greatest goalscorer peaks in history, the highest non-Oiler playoffs goalscorer, and an iconic Cup-winning goal should keep him in the highest tier of goalscorer GOATs, while he is regularly pushed down by the likes of Lemiuex.

Also, the talk of post-95 Hull would be incomplete without mentioning him being on the Two-Kids-and-a-Goat line. I am pretty sure Datsyuk and Zetterberg both still remember him fondly.

 

[blogofmike]

Overall I think that Hull gets underrated. One of the greatest goalscorer peaks in history, the highest non-Oiler playoffs goalscorer, and an iconic Cup-winning goal should keep him in the highest tier of goalscorer GOATs, while he is regularly pushed down by the likes of Lemiuex.

Also, the talk of post-95 Hull would be incomplete without mentioning him being on the Two-Kids-and-a-Goat line. I am pretty sure Datsyuk and Zetterberg both still remember him fondly.

Agree on him being underrated, at least a little. I think he was beat out by Dickie Moore in the last Top Players of All Time list, and given the strength of Hull's non-peak years, and playoff performances, and 1996 World Cup, I think I'd take Brett over Dickie Moore.

 

[EpochLink]

No. That particular situation was at the old Grape's on Main, across from Earls on Main. That was cool because it was a relatively small venue, packed with players from both teams.

I used to hang out at Norma Jean's (later renamed Co Co Nuts) in the early 90's and the Jets and players from other teams would flock there as well. I have a few stories... taking Chelio's drink by accident (it was only water - the health nut - so I was eager to give it back to him), Keith Tkachuk bouncing off the walls drunk, and some things I probably shouldn't mention.

Yeah my uncle had some Keith Tkachuk stories from BCW’s as well lol...

 

[Vanzig]

I wonder how Hull's numbers would've been if Gretzky re-signed with the Blues rather than with the Rangers.

I know they didn't put up the numbers many were expecting when Wayne was acquired by St. Louis, however, both were still pretty productive (overall, Wayne had 37 pts in 31 games, Hull had 15 goals and 32 pts in 30 games). If Wayne signs with the Blues, would that be enough for Hull to reach 50 goals in 96-97 (he scored 43)? Instead of crashing down to 27 goals in 97-98, does the Gretzky factor keep Hull up at the 35-40 level?

Hull managed 32 goals in 60 games with Dallas in 98-99 (44 goal pace, would've tied him for 2nd in NHL). His numbers slipped in 99-00, but he rebounded with 11 goals in 24 playoff games. He scored 39 goals in 00-01, then managed seasons of 30, 37 and 25 with Detroit.

Post 1995 (aged 31-40), he scored 299 goals in 681 games, clearly a step down from his 1989-1995 numbers, but still very productive. He added 45 playoff goals in 123 games and was a big factor for two Stanley Cup wins.

There was factor’s for Gretzky & Hull duo for Not putting up greater numbers than they could/should have.
(1) Gretzky was Tired from all the B.S. that year with LA Management
(2) He was Hurt
(3) Not enough time (18 Regular Season Games) to get comfortable with a New Team!!!

I do think HAD Gretzky Signed with ST. LOUIS instead of NY Rangers (I wish he would never had went to Rangers) & played a FULL Season that HULL could have had another 50 Goals.
Just think “IF” Kypreous didn’t fall on FUHR in Game 2 of Playoffs. I mean BLUES almost beat RED WINGS with a “BACK-UP GOALIE” in Jon Casey. It woulda been nice to see a FLORIDA PANTHERS vs ST. LOUIS BLUES 1996 Stanley Cup FINALS eh.

Gretzky had some decent help in 1996-97 but in his Last 2 Seasons it was a nightmare, His Main SNIPER was NIKLAS SUNDSTROM (UH Ya OK) and his other suppose Sniper was a guy who had a problem with Crack Cocaine (Kevin Stevens). I taped roughly 70 Games a year when Gretzky played on Rangers and man He was setting up SUNDSTROM/STEVENS/BILL BERG etc so many times and they failed miserably.
It was sad to see a guy who still Led/Shared the League in Assists and playing with Nobodies/Underachievers & especially when he was Hurt in his Last Season. When they didn’t Sign any Free Agents like (SAKIC, BURE, FLEURY etc) and Management didn’t stick up for #99 when the Rangers Won a Few Games when he was Injured I think he would have played 1 more season (well #99 said so himself “Had they traded for PAVEL BURE I would have played another season”. Then when he retires “THEN” they go get LINDROS, JAGR, BURE, MESSIER etc etc. Like go figure, what a slap in the face.

 

[frontsfan2005]

There was factor’s for Gretzky & Hull duo for Not putting up greater numbers than they could/should have.
(1) Gretzky was Tired from all the B.S. that year with LA Management
(2) He was Hurt
(3) Not enough time (18 Regular Season Games) to get comfortable with a New Team!!!

I do think HAD Gretzky Signed with ST. LOUIS instead of NY Rangers (I wish he would never had went to Rangers) & played a FULL Season that HULL could have had another 50 Goals.
Just think “IF” Kypreous didn’t fall on FUHR in Game 2 of Playoffs. I mean BLUES almost beat RED WINGS with a “BACK-UP GOALIE” in Jon Casey. It woulda been nice to see a FLORIDA PANTHERS vs ST. LOUIS BLUES 1996 Stanley Cup FINALS eh.

Gretzky had some decent help in 1996-97 but in his Last 2 Seasons it was a nightmare, His Main SNIPER was NIKLAS SUNDSTROM (UH Ya OK) and his other suppose Sniper was a guy who had a problem with Crack Cocaine (Kevin Stevens). I taped roughly 70 Games a year when Gretzky played on Rangers and man He was setting up SUNDSTROM/STEVENS/BILL BERG etc so many times and they failed miserably.
It was sad to see a guy who still Led/Shared the League in Assists and playing with Nobodies/Underachievers & especially when he was Hurt in his Last Season. When they didn’t Sign any Free Agents like (SAKIC, BURE, FLEURY etc) and Management didn’t stick up for #99 when the Rangers Won a Few Games when he was Injured I think he would have played 1 more season (well #99 said so himself “Had they traded for PAVEL BURE I would have played another season”. Then when he retires “THEN” they go get LINDROS, JAGR, BURE, MESSIER etc etc. Like go figure, what a slap in the face.

I do agree with you that the Rangers let Wayne down. He signs in 1996 to rejoin his best friend Mark Messier to close out his career, and then a year later, the Rangers let Messier walk. Not only that, but they traded another close friend Luc Robitaille to LA for Kevin Stevens. I know Luc didn't have the greatest season with NYR in 96-97, but this trade didn't make much sense, as he was still clearly a superior player when compared to Stevens. If he had known Messier would walk, Wayne likely signs with Vancouver and joins Bure and Mogilny, or maybe remains with St. Louis with Hull (I'm not sure what they offered Wayne). His 98-99 numbers would look much better on either team, maybe this keeps Bure happy with the Canucks having Wayne feeding him passes and prevents their falling out?

If he remains with Hull, I do believe Hull sticks around with the Blues after 1998 instead of signing with Dallas. A Gretzky-Hull combo even in 98-99 or 99-00 would have Brett around the 40 goal marker and Wayne continuing to flirt with 90-100 points. While Wayne's goal scoring went south in 98-99, I think with the right line mates, he would continue to be a PPG player and be a PP specialist (likely 15 goals-65 assists). If he can hold on for an extra season, he's that much closer to 3000 points. As for Brett, if playing a couple of extra years with Wayne adds 15-20 goals to his career totals, he ends up in the 760 range.

 

[The Panther]

I do agree with you that the Rangers let Wayne down. He signs in 1996 to rejoin his best friend Mark Messier to close out his career, and then a year later, the Rangers let Messier walk. Not only that, but they traded another close friend Luc Robitaille to LA for Kevin Stevens.

Wayne certainly made some poor choices post-Edmonton. The first three years with the Kings were very good, but then the team went south and McNall (the main reason Gretzky went there) ended up going to prison and the team entered a fire-sale. He went to St.Louis just as Hull was passing his best years and just as Keenan was going full-on nut-bar (though, as you say, he and Brett did actually have some good moments and got better as the few months they were together passed by). Then, he signed with the Rangers just before they started their seemingly endless free-fall of 1998 to 2004, where they were the overpaid laughing-stock of the League.

While Wayne's goal scoring went south in 98-99, I think with the right line mates, he would continue to be a PPG player...

Actually, in that last season he WAS still a PPG player -- until he got injured near the end. He had 35 points in the first 31 games and 57 points in 58 games when he was injured (Feb.22nd, 1999). After his injury, there were only 12 games left and he just rode out the games, as the Rangers weren't going anywhere.

 

[Vanzig]

Thing is, BURE was Scoring 50-60 Goals on a sucky team, with #99 GRETZKY feeding Bure passes we can only imagine how awesome those 2 would have played together. BURE would have scored 70+ Goals a season and Gretzky at end of his career 90-100+ points instead of playin with complete crap, the NY saviour NIKLAS SUNDSTROM and a guy who was smoking Crackl cocaine Kevin Stevens, I still cant believe mark left Wayne to rot on the rangers for his last 2 seasons in nhl, the thing is, Gretzky LED the NHL assists in 2 of his last 3 seasons and he played with sub par crap. #99 should have went to DETROIT, COLORADO, DALLAS (a playoff contender)

 

[puckpilot]

From what I remember, once Oates was traded it was never the same. If memory serves, he didn't have any chemistry with Janney, so Janney played more with Shannahan.

Oates and Hull together was special. The whole was greater than the parts. Great players individually but better together.

Also in around 94 he turned 30. Generally, that's when players start to decline.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Thing is, BURE was Scoring 50-60 Goals on a sucky team, with #99 GRETZKY feeding Bure passes we can only imagine how awesome those 2 would have played together. BURE would have scored 70+ Goals a season and Gretzky at end of his career 90-100+ points instead of playin with complete crap, the NY saviour NIKLAS SUNDSTROM and a guy who was smoking Crackl cocaine Kevin Stevens, I still cant believe mark left Wayne to rot on the rangers for his last 2 seasons in nhl, the thing is, Gretzky LED the NHL assists in 2 of his last 3 seasons and he played with sub par crap. #99 should have went to DETROIT, COLORADO, DALLAS (a playoff contender)

Sure, Gretzky would've helped but he is an extreme example. In general I think Bure was a guy that for the most part created his own goals, he didn't need a center to set him up. I remember a lot of people thought Kessel would explode with Malkin/Crosby but that's not what happened because he is not that type of player. He simply does his own thing and does it pretty damn good. Kovalchuk (of course he is good to set up but you get what I mean) would be another one of those guys, maybe Nash as well.

Examples of the Hull-type in the last decade or so would be Heatley, Neal, Stamkos. Good at finding space and get off their shot quickly. Perry was more of a 'garbage goal' guy.

 

[billybudd]

Hull's goalscoring "falling off" (to a still quite impressive level) was right around the time I noticed goaltenders filling up a whole lot more of the net than they used to. It's also around the time standups were disappearing. Guy like Patrick Lalime or Jocelyn Thibault didn't have the career of a Tom Barrasso, but it was certainly harder to beat them low from medium to long range, which possibly could have affected Hull as a negative.

From memory, I don't think 1997 Hull was appreciably worse than 1992 Hull. Maybe he lost something to age as most guys will, but there was nothing dramatic about it to my eyes.

More a thing where clean looks were harder to come by and it being harder (for everyone) to convert on the looks they did get. Lack of the Oates chemistry was also clearly a factor.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Sure, Gretzky would've helped but he is an extreme example. In general I think Bure was a guy that for the most part created his own goals, he didn't need a center to set him up. I remember a lot of people thought Kessel would explode with Malkin/Crosby but that's not what happened because he is not that type of player. He simply does his own thing and does it pretty damn good. Kovalchuk (of course he is good to set up but you get what I mean) would be another one of those guys, maybe Nash as well.

Examples of the Hull-type in the last decade or so would be Heatley, Neal, Stamkos. Good at finding space and get off their shot quickly. Perry was more of a 'garbage goal' guy.

well no, bure didn't need a superstar center to set him up. but it doesn't hurt.

the one time in his career bure played with a center in his league as a player, he scored 12 goals and added 8 assists in 12 games.