Bozak ain't half bad after all.

[Hockey Talker29]

Such a liar lol, earlier in the thread you pointed out how Kadri is a better centerman because he had points before Bozak entered the league. But when people called you out on this BS you abandoned thread completely .

Bozak has produced well with other linemates, he'll be fine.

You mean the post about how Kadri has grossly outscored Bozak at the same age?

Kadri 174
Bozak 106

I'm not sure what happened after that. I was thread-banned for a while, although none of the mods seemed to know why. Seemed to be an accident.

I'm happy to debate it with you though.

The point of the comparison is to suggest who will be better from this point onwards.

Since Kadri to this point in his career has accomplished far more than Bozak has, I think it's reasonable to suggest that to continue going forward.

Feel free to rebut.

I'll ask that you please not call me a liar with regard to supporting the team. It's quite likely that I've been a supporter far longer than you have.

 

[The Apologist]

You mean the post about how Kadri has grossly outscored Bozak at the same age?

Kadri 174
Bozak 106

I'm not sure what happened after that. I was thread-banned for a while, although none of the mods seemed to know why. Seemed to be an accident.

I'm happy to debate it with you though.

Ah yes, I remember that, I also remember that it was in many more games that he got those points Your comment above would suggest that all players develop at the same age and pace, which is rather ridiculous to suggest. Kadri being considered the better prospect at 18 does not guarantee that Kadri will be the better player at 25.

The point of the comparison is to suggest who will be better from this point onwards.

Since Kadri to this point in his career has accomplished far more than Bozak has, I think it's reasonable to suggest that to continue going forward.

Feel free to rebut.

I'll ask that you please not call me a liar with regard to supporting the team. It's quite likely that I've been a supporter far longer than you have.

[/quote]
Far more? Seems a rather ridiculous stretch no?

As to it continuing, heres one for you, Kadri's year over year PPG since breaking in full time:

2012-13 .92
2013-14 .64
2014-15 .53
2015-16 .54

Bozak:

2010-11 .39
2011-12 .64
2012-13 .61
2013-14 .85
2014-15 .60
2015-16 .73

What reason exactly is there to believe that Nazem won't continue to be a .5 to .6 ppg player? What reason is there to believe that Bozak won't as well?

I would touch on the other aspects as well, but points was the discussion being used above.

They are both very good 2Cs. I think Kadri's upcoming contract will actually prove what a bargain the Bozak contract is going to be for us.

 

[OvenMittz*]

You mean the post about how Kadri has grossly outscored Bozak at the same age?

Kadri 174
Bozak 106

I'm not sure what happened after that. I was thread-banned for a while, although none of the mods seemed to know why. Seemed to be an accident.

I'm happy to debate it with you though.

The point of the comparison is to suggest who will be better from this point onwards.

Since Kadri to this point in his career has accomplished far more than Bozak has, I think it's reasonable to suggest that to continue going forward.

Feel free to rebut.

I'll ask that you please not call me a liar with regard to supporting the team. It's quite likely that I've been a supporter far longer than you have.

[MOD]
Kadri
2012-13 .92
2013-14 .64
2014-15 .53
2015-16 .54

Bozak:
2012-13 .61
2013-14 .85
2014-15 .60
2015-16 .73


Bozak was an undrafted player, So he has accomplished quite a bit in his career for someone who progressed at a later age. So to go on and say Kadri has accomplished far more???? you're ridiculous. You're a Kadri fanboy we get it, but speak facts here my friend. I was a Kessel fanboy way back when, but even i would admit his faults and weaknesses and not speak blind nonsense like you continually seem to do here.

Edit: nvm someone beat me to it.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Reasons to expect Kadri to improve:

- 25 years old. Still in the middle of his prime years.
- Increased role with more ice-time.
- Better linemates.

Reasons to expect Bozak to get worse:

- 29 years old. Exiting his prime.
- Decreased role with less ice-time.
- Worse linemates than in past years.

Generally, the 1st point for each player is where I expect the vast majority of the difference to occur.

I expect 25-30 year old Kadri to considerably outperform 29-34 year old Bozak.

You'll probably point to this year to dispute these assertions which is all well and good.

I'd prefer to wait for the full season to play out before we start mentioning things like pt/gm pace, since it changes considerably game to game.

My overall point is based on future production. That's why their production at the same age is relevant.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

[MOD]

Kadri
2012-13 .92
2013-14 .64
2014-15 .53
2015-16 .54

Bozak:
2012-13 .61
2013-14 .85
2014-15 .60
2015-16 .73


Bozak was an undrafted player, So he has accomplished quite a bit in his career for someone who progressed at a later age. So to go on and say Kadri has accomplished far more???? you're ridiculous. You're a Kadri fanboy we get it, but speak facts here my friend. I was a Kessel fanboy way back when, but even i would admit his faults and weaknesses and not speak blind nonsense like you continually seem to do here.

Edit: nvm someone beat me to it.

Please summarize evidence I've presented that isn't factual.

[MOD]

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Reasons to expect Kadri to improve:

- 25 years old. Still in the middle of his prime years.
- Increased role with more ice-time.
- Better linemates.

Reasons to expect Bozak to get worse:

- 29 years old. Exiting his prime.
- Decreased role with less ice-time.
- Worse linemates than in past years.

Generally, the 1st point for each player is where I expect the vast majority of the difference to occur.

I expect 25-30 year old Kadri to considerably outperform 29-34 year old Bozak.

You'll probably point to this year to dispute these assertions which is all well and good.

I'd prefer to wait for the full season to play out before we start mentioning things like pt/gm pace, since it changes considerably game to game.

My overall point is based on future production. That's why their production at the same age is relevant.

I'm so sick and tired of hearing about Kadri's linemates, Bozak was put on a line with PA Parenteau who had 22 points last season and turned him into an effective winger this year. Kadri was given the best wingers this season and he still hasn't been able to out produce Bozak.

Enough with the complaints about his wingers as of this season they are no longer valid, Bozak had the second tier wingers and he out produced him enough to warrant moving JVR back to his wing. Kadri is a good center but stop blaming everything on his wingers.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Please summarize evidence I've presented that isn't factual.

[MOD]

You can use facts and still be dishonest, making a claim like he had so many more points at the same age is ridiculous based on how they entered the NHL. You can't just ignore context when presenting data.

[MOD]

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I'm so sick and tired of hearing about Kadri's linemates, Bozak was put on a line with PA Parenteau who had 22 points last season and turned him into an effective winger this year. Kadri was given the best wingers this season and he still hasn't been able to out produce Bozak.

Enough with the complaints about his wingers as of this season they are no longer valid, Bozak had the second tier wingers and he out produced him enough to warrant moving JVR back to his wing. Kadri is a good center but stop blaming everything on his wingers.

That poster wasn't complaining about Kadri's wingers ... ?
He was saying the reasons to expect Kadri to improve and Bozak not to improve, and one of the reasons was that Kadri is going to have better linemates moving forward while Bozak will have lesser linemates. Unless you're expecting Bozak to improve with lesser linemates, then there's nothing wrong with his/her post.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

That poster wasn't complaining about Kadri's wingers ... ?
He was saying the reasons to expect Kadri to improve and Bozak not to improve, and one of the reasons was that Kadri is going to have better linemates moving forward while Bozak will have lesser linemates. Unless you're expecting Bozak to improve with lesser linemates, then there's nothing wrong with his/her post.

Thanks for actually reading the post, rather than fixating on a couple of keywords.

 

[Dangles McGavin]

Bozak's first season with the Leafs was 37 games. He had 27 points.

Look at his statline now! 27 points in 37 games.

HE IS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS

 

[ShaneFalco]

stolen from another board:

The pre- and post-All Star Game splits for Bozak, Kessel and JVR (and even Kadri) have been quite different. Across the board I think there is a slight drop off in goal scoring the closer you get to the playoffs but with these 3 the drop off was quite pronounced.

JVR (points per game for career)
Pre: 0.65
Post: 0.48

Bozak
Pre: 0.67
Post: 0.50

Kadri
Pre: 0.63
Post: 0.45

Kessel
Pre: 0.82
Post: 0.63

Now that Kessel's gone it'll be interesting to see if the current forward group follows a similar pattern or not.

Also worth noting is that over 313 Pre-All Star games, Bozak is a -21. In 100 Post-All Star games he's a ridiculous -48.

A few of the Leafs have been better so far this season, no doubt. But I'd rather wait until after game #82 before making any bold declarations about these guys. We've been down this road too many times.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

stolen from another board:

The pre- and post-All Star Game splits for Bozak, Kessel and JVR (and even Kadri) have been quite different. Across the board I think there is a slight drop off in goal scoring the closer you get to the playoffs but with these 3 the drop off was quite pronounced.

JVR (points per game for career)
Pre: 0.65
Post: 0.48

Bozak
Pre: 0.67
Post: 0.50

Kadri
Pre: 0.63
Post: 0.45

Kessel
Pre: 0.82
Post: 0.63

Now that Kessel's gone it'll be interesting to see if the current forward group follows a similar pattern or not.

Also worth noting is that over 313 Pre-All Star games, Bozak is a -21. In 100 Post-All Star games he's a ridiculous -48.

A few of the Leafs have been better so far this season, no doubt. But I'd rather wait until after game #82 before making any bold declarations about these guys. We've been down this road too many times.

Where does the lockout season fall in this? Pre all-star or post all-star? Or is it not included altogether.

 

[The Apologist]

Reasons to expect Kadri to improve:

- 25 years old. Still in the middle of his prime years.
- Increased role with more ice-time.
- Better linemates.

Reasons to expect Bozak to get worse:

- 29 years old. Exiting his prime.
- Decreased role with less ice-time.
- Worse linemates than in past years.

Generally, the 1st point for each player is where I expect the vast majority of the difference to occur.

Except Kadri has been consistently trending downward while Bozak appears to be simply consistent.

I expect 25-30 year old Kadri to considerably outperform 29-34 year old Bozak.

But will 25-30 year old Kadri outperform 25-30 year old Bozak? Im not so certain he will. A minute ago you were comparing their stats by 25, now youre comparing Kadri's prime to Bozak's golden years.

You'll probably point to this year to dispute these assertions which is all well and good.

I'd prefer to wait for the full season to play out before we start mentioning things like pt/gm pace, since it changes considerably game to game.

Au contraire, I was using their entire careers. Care to compare what their career PPG averages are?

My overall point is based on future production. That's why their production at the same age is relevant.

Nothing you have shown even hints at better production in the future for Kadri. Again, there is no set path an NHL career follows. You are attempting to project a future production level for Kadri predicated on what path you believe an NHL prospect SHOULD do rather than what he IS doing. Reality is that his production has decreased year after year as his role has increased. Reality is that he has had exactly one incredibly productive year and several rather average ones.

If by 30, Kadri is averaging 50 pts per season, and Bozak at the same age was averaging 50 pts per season, is Kadri the better player because he played a handful more games between 18-21 years old?

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Except Kadri has been consistently trending downward while Bozak appears to be simply consistent.

Is Kadri trending downward? Most people would suggest that this is one of, if not his best season. Strictly points-wise it isn't, but no player is evaluated strictly on points. You're just twisting the narrative here to fit your argument.

But will 25-30 year old Kadri outperform 25-30 year old Bozak? Im not so certain he will. A minute ago you were comparing their stats by 25, now youre comparing Kadri's prime to Bozak's golden years.

Why do I care if Kadri outproduces Bozak of past years? It doesn't make sense. The Leafs aren't going to have goals added from Bozak's 25 year-old season next year.

The whole point is to assess who is more likely to be better going forward.

Au contraire, I was using their entire careers. Care to compare what their career PPG averages are?

Your comparison uses only Bozak's prime years, and doesn't include a bunch of Kadri's (i.e. the next few seasons). It's an even more unfair comparison for assessing future production.

Would you compare an 19 year old and a 23 year old similarly?

Nothing you have shown even hints at better production in the future for Kadri. Again, there is no set path an NHL career follows. You are attempting to project a future production level for Kadri predicated on what path you believe an NHL prospect SHOULD do rather than what he IS doing. Reality is that his production has decreased year after year as his role has increased. Reality is that he has had exactly one incredibly productive year and several rather average ones.

I'm attempting to project Kadri's career based on the expectation that he is still in the midst of his prime, and likely has one or more career best seasons ahead of him.

As of this point, he's had one disappointing season (last year). He had one phenomenal season (the lockout year), and another very good one (his 50-point year). You're punishing him for putting up incredible production a few years ago. That's absurd. If he had put up 0.5 pts/game instead of ~0.9, he wouldn't be "trending down" at all. Lol. What a ridiculous argument!

If by 30, Kadri is averaging 50 pts per season, and Bozak at the same age was averaging 50 pts per season, is Kadri the better player because he played a handful more games between 18-21 years old?

I'm more concerned about Kadri's production between 26-29. 30 is where a lot of NHLers have begun trending downward significantly in this era. By then, I expect that we'll have moved on from him.

Responses in bold.

 

[The Apologist]

Responses in bold.

Facts state he's trending downward.

.9
.6
.5

Aka downward.

I used points as you compared his total points at age 25. It was your original ridiculous comparison, remember? It was YOUR narrative. The only twisting being done here is your own.

You compared the two of them at age 25. Why would you not then compare them at age 30? Why suddenly compare Kadri's prime to Bozak's golden years? Oh yes, more narrative twisting.

If we want to go current fine, Bozak is currently wiping the floor with Kadri despite less minutes and apparently lesser linemates.

Not that I think Bozak is better, but production wise Bozak is more consistent. Do you have anything at All that shows Nazem will improve offensively? Other I think it might be safe to say that based on your 25 year old Kadri conclusion, Bozak may in fact accomplish more by 30.

Now, twist away. Or, perhaps you could simply admit that the initial statement was silly and ridiculous.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Facts state he's trending downward.

.9
.6
.5

Aka downward.

I used points as you compared his total points at age 25. It was your original ridiculous comparison, remember? It was YOUR narrative. The only twisting being done here is your own.

You compared the two of them at age 25. Why would you not then compare them at age 30? Why suddenly compare Kadri's prime to Bozak's golden years? Oh yes, more narrative twisting.

If we want to go current fine, Bozak is currently wiping the floor with Kadri despite less minutes and apparently lesser linemates.

Not that I think Bozak is better, but production wise Bozak is more consistent. Do you have anything at All that shows Nazem will improve offensively? Other I think it might be safe to say that based on your 25 year old Kadri conclusion, Bozak may in fact accomplish more by 30.

Now, twist away. Or, perhaps you could simply admit that the initial statement was silly and ridiculous.

Technically, he is over 0.5pts per game this year. So, he's actually trending back up by that measure.

I stated clearly why I wouldn't compare each of them at 30. I'll repeat. I'm trying to forecast future production. Your whole point is based on the fact that Bozak got a lot better in his prime years than he was in his early 20s. Yet you seem to think that can't happen for Kadri. Why not?

Lastly, I don't know how you determine that Bozak is "wiping the floor" with Kadri. He has 5 more points. He is producing slightly better offensively (based only on points, but not shots or scoring chances), while Kadri is shouldering the toughest defensive matchups, and handling them better than Bozak ever has. I'd say they're about even in terms of overall performance this year so far. If there is a difference, it's slight in either direction.

 

[OvenMittz*]

Bozak has been buzzing this game along with his line..

Its seems like its a matter of time. This goalie has been pretty good tonight. Bozak has some underrated talent.

 

[thewave]

Bozak has been buzzing this game along with his line..

Its seems like its a matter of time. This goalie has been pretty good tonight. Bozak has some underrated talent.

That was a laser of a wrister off the post.

 

[OvenMittz*]

That was a laser of a wrister off the post.

Yea didn't know he had that shot.. I thought it was kessel on the halfwall. Would of been nice of it went In though.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Bozak has been buzzing this game along with his line..

Its seems like its a matter of time. This goalie has been pretty good tonight. Bozak has some underrated talent.

I thought the Bozak line was our best one tonight. Darling played a phenomenal game. The score isn't indicative of how close the game was.

 

[OvenMittz*]

I thought the Bozak line was our best one tonight. Darling played a phenomenal game. The score isn't indicative of how close the game was.

yup there earlier connection in the season didn't skip a beat. Hope it continues that way and eventually the points will come like last time.

JVRS finishing ability will be missed for awhile.

 

[The Apologist]

Bozak with 3 points on the night. Picking up where he left off.
Dang, maybe he a was carrying Kessel all these years?!?

 

[Gallagbi]

2 points.

Could have had 4-5 goals, he had a good night.

 

[TMLegend]

Bozak with 3 points on the night. Picking up where he left off.
Dang, maybe he a was carrying Kessel all these years?!?

Bozak ain't half bad, he's pretty damn good actually.

He'll never get his due though from this fanbase. Underestimated and underrated at every turn. There really hasn't been enough crow eaten by those who said he would struggle to crack 20 points without Kessel.

 

[Rayzorexe]

Bozak tends to have a stretch of good games and disappears for another stretch.