Confirmed with Link: Boucher: to return or not to return, that is the question

[Pierre from Orleans]

I have no idea what PD behind the bench would look like but we have seen it numerous times in the NHL where a coach is fired & the GM completes the season as GM & coach. Who knows he could be better than GB.



That didn't go well for Montreal, did it? Roy went on to win a couple of cups with Colorado after that. And it's a great example of the team siding with the coach who was terrible when they should have sided with the player & fired Tremblay. Ottawa had the same problem with Clouston & should have fired him & made Heatley happy, instead they traded Heatley, their only 50 goal scorer in recent history & went downhill from there.

So you are advocating to keep Karlsson? Weren't you a pro trade Karlsson poster?

 

[aragorn]

So you are advocating to keep Karlsson? Weren't you a pro trade Karlsson poster?

It's interesting how some people read something & then jump to a conclusion. I'm neither for or against trading EK but I do like to look at the strategies for or against in making these kinds of decisions. I also like to put together proposals to see what is the possible gain in a trade like that but it's others often that decide for themselves whether I'm for or against something. I prefer & enjoy to look at the pros & cons.

For example, if EK is re-signed to what end? Have they decided they are hoping to make the playoffs & go for another cup run & what does that mean in terms of which players they will need to make that run. Trading prospects for NHL players? If they decide not to re-sign EK what does that mean? Are they rebuilding, are they planning on inserting their prospects & are they accepting that they may be crappy for a few yrs? I like to look at all the possibilities & try & figure out what is the best course of action for the team & organization & what their plan is.

At the moment given the situation of the team & what they may look like for the next few yrs IMO it may make more sense to get as much as they can for EK & add it to what I think is a pretty good prospect pool & build for the future as opposed to building for next season. It's a tough call either way though & I'm not sure what will happen. There are a few players that I like who I think should not be traded but instead build the team around them & there are a few players that I think Ottawa has better replacements coming with the prospects who should be traded if they can get a good return for them. EK could be great for another decade or he could sustain more injuries & become like Ryan as he gets older injured more often than he is healthy. Who knows? It's a tough call but PD needs to do what is best for the organization as a whole for today & the future of the team. What he will do is another matter.

 

[chipsens]

Boucher is going to take on specific role in trying to fix the PP next season (while shuffling roles of assistant coaches)??!! What a lotta bs. If this was truly a feasible option, WTF was he doing last season as head coach...sitting on his hands?! I don't see any genius in his coaching...he should be gone (and so should Pierre). Last season was no fluke.

 

[Sensung]

It's interesting how some people read something & then jump to a conclusion. I'm neither for or against trading EK but I do like to look at the strategies for or against in making these kinds of decisions. I also like to put together proposals to see what is the possible gain in a trade like that but it's others often that decide for themselves whether I'm for or against something. I prefer & enjoy to look at the pros & cons.

For example, if EK is re-signed to what end? Have they decided they are hoping to make the playoffs & go for another cup run & what does that mean in terms of which players they will need to make that run. Trading prospects for NHL players? If they decide not to re-sign EK what does that mean? Are they rebuilding, are they planning on inserting their prospects & are they accepting that they may be crappy for a few yrs? I like to look at all the possibilities & try & figure out what is the best course of action for the team & organization & what their plan is.

At the moment given the situation of the team & what they may look like for the next few yrs IMO it may make more sense to get as much as they can for EK & add it to what I think is a pretty good prospect pool & build for the future as opposed to building for next season. It's a tough call either way though & I'm not sure what will happen. There are a few players that I like who I think should not be traded but instead build the team around them & there are a few players that I think Ottawa has better replacements coming with the prospects who should be traded if they can get a good return for them. EK could be great for another decade or he could sustain more injuries & become like Ryan as he gets older injured more often than he is healthy. Who knows? It's a tough call but PD needs to do what is best for the organization as a whole for today & the future of the team. What he will do is another matter.

You have been anti EK for years.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Boucher is going to take on specific role in trying to fix the PP next season (while shuffling roles of assistant coaches)??!! What a lotta bs. If this was truly a feasible option, WTF was he doing last season as head coach...sitting on his hands?! I don't see any genius in his coaching...he should be gone (and so should Pierre). Last season was no fluke.

Well Boucher squeezed a conference final run out of this crapass team right? That must account for something.

Or is it this whole thing where when we lose it’s the coaches fault but when we win it’s the players doing it despite the coaches?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

That was an awesome game to watch. Roy turned heel in the middle of the game, and the fans went nutso on him, booing like crazy after a simple save...then the hands in the air surrender...classic. It's was OJ in the white Bronco level excitement at the time for live tv.

 

[Cosmix]

It's interesting how some people read something & then jump to a conclusion. I'm neither for or against trading EK but I do like to look at the strategies for or against in making these kinds of decisions. I also like to put together proposals to see what is the possible gain in a trade like that but it's others often that decide for themselves whether I'm for or against something. I prefer & enjoy to look at the pros & cons.

For example, if EK is re-signed to what end? Have they decided they are hoping to make the playoffs & go for another cup run & what does that mean in terms of which players they will need to make that run. Trading prospects for NHL players? If they decide not to re-sign EK what does that mean? Are they rebuilding, are they planning on inserting their prospects & are they accepting that they may be crappy for a few yrs? I like to look at all the possibilities & try & figure out what is the best course of action for the team & organization & what their plan is.

At the moment given the situation of the team & what they may look like for the next few yrs IMO it may make more sense to get as much as they can for EK & add it to what I think is a pretty good prospect pool & build for the future as opposed to building for next season. It's a tough call either way though & I'm not sure what will happen. There are a few players that I like who I think should not be traded but instead build the team around them & there are a few players that I think Ottawa has better replacements coming with the prospects who should be traded if they can get a good return for them. EK could be great for another decade or he could sustain more injuries & become like Ryan as he gets older injured more often than he is healthy. Who knows? It's a tough call but PD needs to do what is best for the organization as a whole for today & the future of the team. What he will do is another matter.

In the last two seasons, the team tried to get better by trading picks and prospects to get vets who were supposedly better players who make fewer mistakes. It backfired this year in a big way. So the owner and GM decide to build through the draft and development, or at least said that was their new epiphany approach. I suspect the owner still wants to get into the playoffs so he gets more revenue. Nothing wrong with better performance leading to more revenue. BUT trading away picks and prospects is going to have a detrimental effect on future performance. I fear that the owner will encourage the GM to improve the team soon, which will lead to a strategy change where more futures are traded away to try to get into the playoffs to get higher revenue. I think this will lead to having a “pretender” team and not a true “contender” type team.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Well Boucher squeezed a conference final run out of this crapass team right? That must account for something.

Or is it this whole thing where when we lose it’s the coaches fault but when we win it’s the players doing it despite the coaches?

The team came together for a number of reasons. The ECF run isn't the norm for this group

 

[JD1]

I know it's a meme around here to insinuate that Pierre Dorion is a blithering, drooling moron, but I have to draw a line in the sand here and call this out.

I don't like Dorion as a General Manager. Most of us don't... but this is a thoroughly ludicrous 3 lines of text.

I'm with you on a lot of things, SoA, but I have to get off the meme train here.

but but but you'r gonna ruin the fun

 

[JD1]

I think there is the possibility that Karlsson has already chosen Free Agency/ silently requesting a trade over the Senators (through indirect channels, of course), or that Karlsson has let it be known that his salary demands will be more than Melnyk is willing to stomach, and plans are already in place to move on from the EK era.

If this hypothetical scenario were real, then it really doesn't matter what the team does with Boucher as it relates to Karlsson. I would be less "choosing Boucher over EK", and more "Well, EK's as good as gone, let's figure the rest of this mess out".

in that hypothetical wouldn't EK being gone make dumping Boucher's last year of salary more palatable without EK's 6.5 on the books? I agree it's possible but just throwing out a thought on it

 

[Micklebot]

in that hypothetical wouldn't EK being gone make dumping Boucher's last year of salary more palatable without EK's 6.5 on the books? I agree it's possible but just throwing out a thought on it

Sure, but dumping Boucher for the sake of dumping Boucher (when presumably you have zero aspirations of competing for a playoff spot in the imediate future sans Karlsson) doesn't make sense either. Perhaps not re-signing KK was all about lining up Boucher's successor in Belleville so that he can come up mid season when Boucher potentially gets fired, for example. Perhaps they don't see any coaches on the hot seat right now and are waiting for next year. Perhaps they actually still like their coach even though there's conflict between him and EK, and while if given the choice, they'd pick EK, without the pressure of it being on or the other, they have no reason to let him go.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

The team came together for a number of reasons. The ECF run isn't the norm for this group

This team also fell a apart for a number of reasons and a bottom 3 finish isn’t the norm for this group either.

Can’t pick and choose outliers then.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

This team also fell a apart for a number of reasons and a bottom 3 finish isn’t the norm for this group either.

Can’t pick and choose outliers then.

Fair point. We have been a perennial bubble team for the last decade.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I think there is the possibility that Karlsson has already chosen Free Agency/ silently requesting a trade over the Senators (through indirect channels, of course), or that Karlsson has let it be known that his salary demands will be more than Melnyk is willing to stomach, and plans are already in place to move on from the EK era.

If this hypothetical scenario were real, then it really doesn't matter what the team does with Boucher as it relates to Karlsson. I would be less "choosing Boucher over EK", and more "Well, EK's as good as gone, let's figure the rest of this mess out".

If this hypothetical scenario were real, EK65 would have to know what EM is willing to pay him, what his value would be as an UFA and some possible landing spots.

I doubt very much that EM would "show his cards" at anytime leading up to when official negotiations on an extension begin, on July 1st.

 

[Micklebot]

If this hypothetical scenario were real, EK65 would have to know what EM is willing to pay him, what his value would be as an UFA and some possible landing spots.

I doubt very much that EM would "show his cards" at anytime leading up to when official negotiations on an extension begin, on July 1st.

No he doesn't. Bonk offered two potential reasons; 1) that Karlsson wants to go to UFA or has requested a trade, not specifically tied to what the sens will offer, and 2) that EK has made his salary demands known.

In the first scenario, what Melnyk is willing to pay has zero relevance. In the second, there is a scenario where Melnyk and the team make it known they can't or won't match, and a scenario where they string Karlsson along and keep him in the dark. Either way, it's not a case of choosing Boucher over Karlsson, which was Bonk's point.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

What's a more ludicrous concept?

1. Boucher knows significantly more than Dorion when it comes to on ice team tactics and schemes
2. Boucher was rehired knowing that decision would push Karlsson further towards the door.

 

[BonkTastic]

I doubt very much that EM would "show his cards" at anytime leading up to when official negotiations on an extension begin, on July 1st.

It's naive to think that these discussions haven't already started, and that both sides don't already know where the other stands.

I know you are a stickler with the idea that everyone always follows all the rules all of the time, but you are going to have to accept the fact that these things often get done behind closed doors, amd have been for literally decades.

It's the worst kept secret in the league. As long as no one tampers with a player under contract to another team, everyone just looks the other way on these sorts of things.

Quite frankly, if they haven't already had significant discussions at this point about contract expectations (through back channels, indirectly and off the record with agent's assiatants, etc...), then our front office is truly incompetent, because every team does it, including us (at least, under Murray we for sure did).

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

What's a more ludicrous concept?

1. Boucher knows significantly more than Dorion when it comes to once ice team tactics and schemes
2. Boucher was rehired knowing that decision would push Karlsson further towards the door.

Both seem very plausible. Dorion probably knows very little about the game played on the ice. Bringing back Boucher probably only antagonizes any skill player on the team but it saves Eugene money so...

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

CapFriendly doesn't say what Boucher is being paid, but 18-19 is the last year of his contract. Perhaps both sides are ok with simply running out the clock for next year? I would assume the assistant contracts run out at the same time?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

It's naive to think that these discussions haven't already started, and that both sides don't already know where the other stands.

I know you are a stickler with the idea that everyone always follows all the rules all of the time, but you are going to have to accept the fact that these things often get done behind closed doors, amd have been for literally decades.

It's the worst kept secret in the league. As long as no one tampers with a player under contract to another team, everyone just looks the other way on these sorts of things.

Quite frankly, if they haven't already had significant discussions at this point about contract expectations (through back channels, indirectly and off the record with agent's assiatants, etc...), then our front office is truly incompetent, because every team does it, including us (at least, under Murray we for sure did).

Don't you think that it's in EK65s best interests, to have none of these "behind the door talks" that neither you or I can prove, just suspect, happen, until someone "set's the market" and becomes a more leverageable (if that's a word) comparable this summer?

For Example, John Carlson is set to become an UFA this July first.

If you are EK65s agent, why would you talk now "behind the door" and perhaps get low-balled, when you can wait to see if Carlson sets a new "comparable" to use in extension negotiations.

Sure, have some feeling each other talks, nothing official, just ballpark expectations perhaps...... but waiting to see where some UFAs land this summer would probably work in EKs favour, and strengthen his position.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It's naive to think that these discussions haven't already started, and that both sides don't already know where the other stands.

I know you are a stickler with the idea that everyone always follows all the rules all of the time, but you are going to have to accept the fact that these things often get done behind closed doors, amd have been for literally decades.

It's the worst kept secret in the league. As long as no one tampers with a player under contract to another team, everyone just looks the other way on these sorts of things.

Quite frankly, if they haven't already had significant discussions at this point about contract expectations (through back channels, indirectly and off the record with agent's assiatants, etc...), then our front office is truly incompetent, because every team does it, including us (at least, under Murray we for sure did).

Without a doubt. I would bet they know pretty much exactly what it will take to sign him at this point and it will just be a matter of ponying up or not.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Don't you think that it's in EK65s best interests, to have none of these "behind the door talks" that neither you or I can prove, just suspect, happen, until someone "set's the market" and becomes a more leverageable (if that's a word) comparable this summer?

For Example, John Carlson is set to become an UFA this July first.

If you are EK65s agent, why would you talk now "behind the door" and perhaps get low-balled, when you can wait to see if Carlson sets a new "comparable" to use in extension negotiations.

Sure, have some feeling each other talks, nothing official, just ballpark expectations perhaps...... but waiting to see where some UFAs land this summer would probably work in EKs favour, and strengthen his position.

A fair deal for Karlsson is likely something around $10 million a year.Looking around the league:

• Byfuglien is at $7,600,000
• Doughty is at $7,000,000
• Subban is at $9,000,000
• Burns is at $8,000,000
• Hedman is at $7,875,000

Karlsson would have to be very generous to accept less than Suubban. At the same time if he wants a lot more than $10 million per season then he is pushing it.

 

[Micklebot]

Don't you think that it's in EK65s best interests, to have none of these "behind the door talks" that neither you or I can prove, just suspect, happen, until someone "set's the market" and becomes a more leverageable (if that's a word) comparable this summer?

For Example, John Carlson is set to become an UFA this July first.

If you are EK65s agent, why would you talk now "behind the door" and perhaps get low-balled, when you can wait to see if Carlson sets a new "comparable" to use in extension negotiations.

Sure, have some feeling each other talks, nothing official, just ballpark expectations perhaps...... but waiting to see where some UFAs land this summer would probably work in EKs favour, and strengthen his position.

Why would it be in the best interest of the best dman in the world to allow somebody else to set the market? What if Carlson sets the mark too low? Given that nothing can be signed until Jul 1st at the earliest, what does it matter if you are low balled at this point? If Carlson does set the bar high, you can adjust, if he sets the bar low, and you've already got the Sens agreeing in principle to a higher benchmark, wouldn't that strengthen your position? Why can ballpark expectations not be enough to satisfy Bonk's initial premise that "Karlsson has already chosen Free Agency/ silently requesting a trade over the Senators (through indirect channels, of course), or that Karlsson has let it be known that his salary demands will be more than Melnyk is willing to stomach"?

How does any of this lead to your initial conclusion that a) Karlsson would need to know what "EM is willing to pay him" for Bonk's initial premise to be true? Why is there even the question about whether or not Karlsson would have some sort of idea as to "what his value would be as an UFA and some possible landing spots"?

 

[RAFI BOMB]

This team also fell a apart for a number of reasons and a bottom 3 finish isn’t the norm for this group either.

Can’t pick and choose outliers then.

What that should indicate is that there are many holes in the roster and that Dorion should have a very active offseason. On roster alone we aren't a bottom five team but we also aren't a legitimate contender. Considering the fact that we made it far in the playoffs with Methot, Phaneuf, MacArthur, Brassard, Neil and Stalberg and that all of them are gone, it is an indication that we are closer to a bottom five team than a serious threat to make the ECF. If Dorion is serious about making this team succesful, he will add the pieces to make our roster as good as it was two years ago and then add more. If we want to be a serious contender then the roster must be better on paper than it was in the ECF run.

 

[Micklebot]

A fair deal for Karlsson is likely something around $10 million a year.Looking around the league:

• Byfuglien is at $7,600,000
• Doughty is at $7,000,000
• Subban is at $9,000,000
• Burns is at $8,000,000
• Hedman is at $7,875,000

Karlsson would have to be very generous to accept less than Suubban. At the same time if he wants a lot more than $10 million per season then he is pushing it.

Doughty isn't really comparable to Karlsson's current contract, it's comparable to his previous one. Burns' contract is going till he's 40, that hit is artificially low compared to a deal signed by a 28-29 year old.

If I'm the Sens, I use the Hedman deal as my point of reference to try and keep Karlsson down. Subban's deal includes only prime years, and finishes when he's 32, A Karlsson deal would run till he's 35 or 36. Hedman's deal runs to 34 so in terms of age, it's probably closest and conveniently a very team friendly deal. Burn's deal scares me more than Subban's because you have 4 years that should have been at a discount (and based on the structure of the deal, were) The years that are same age as the final hypothetical Karlsson years are all at 10 mil per and Karlsson is the better player. Hard to argue Karlsson deserves to be paid less in actual dollars than Burns at age 32-35

Age	Burns	Subban	Karlsson?
28	N/A	11M	N/A
29	N/A	10M	10+?
30	N/A	10M	10+?
31	N/A	8M	8M+???
32	10M	8M	10+
33	10M	N/A	10+?
34	10M	N/A	10+?
35	10M	N/A	10+?
36 37 38 37	7.5M 6.5M 5M 5M	N/A N/A N/A N/A	7.5M+? N/A N/A N/A

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Based on the above, it would be hard to justify less than 10M for any year save maybe the final year. 10 mil is the bare minimum for what I expect the market will be willing to pay for Karlsson. We need to pull the conversation away from Subban and Burns if we want to get a team friendly deal with Karlsson.