Botts v. Housley: Apportioning Fault

[Sabresfansince1980]

The answers to these questions will tell you, with 100% accuracy, which posters were the most angry the second the ROR trade happened, versus which posters tried to convince that segment that we were going to get 45 goals out of the return in that trade this season.

This leaves out the people who know the Pegulas made it imperative to trade O'Reilly before the bonus payout. I was pissed about the return, and never had any delusions that Berglund and Sobotka were more than cap dumps to even out salary. Thompson is just a dice-roll prospect, along with the 1st. I know some people believe Botterill should have refused the Pegulas' demands, and basically quit his job over it...but that's a silly argument from people that don't have to pay his bills.

I blame Botterill for not making better secondary/tertiary moves to acquire slightly better place holders while shoring up the prospect pool and Rochester. But to me, that's not a very big deal because it's the difference between finishing as a bubble team or a bottom ten team. I'd rather have the better draft position so...

I blame Housley for forcing a defensive scheme that his roster can't handle, and failing to stick with pairings or usage that makes obviously more sense than what he's gone to/back to regularly. He could have TB as a wild-card team right now.

 

[BeTheBallDanny]

The ROR trade reeks of Pegula meddling

I am OK with Botts being patient and keeping our prospects in the A.

We have a #1 C, a potential #1 D, 2 top 6 wingers, and a few #4-5 Dmen that at times have looked like regular top 4s.

We aren't as far away as people would have you believe, I give Botts 2 more seasons.

Phil is definitely gone though

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

Yet i know they will not....

 

[brian_griffin]

Its 50/50. Housley has mismanaged the game day roster since the 10 game winning streak. His defensive parings leave much to be desired and his insistence on keeping certain players in the lineup, when they are struggling, is mind blowing. Moving Skinner off a line with Jack, makes no sense, unless it was dictated by Botterill. Makes me wonder if they dont want him to reach 40 or they are already searching for a replacement. Botterill waited too long to supplement the roster. His trade of O'Reilly has blown up on him, first, with Berglund leaving and then with the performance of Sobotka and Thompson. Let's see what he does with the 1st round pick. I like the pickup of Montour, but we clearly lack size and stay at home defensemen to balance the back end. He should have reacted when we started the slide down the standings. Should Skinner walk, (I get that feeling) he would have to go. It's unfortunate, that going into his 3rd year, he will be on the hotseat. How he handles Housley will be the first test of the offseason and then what he does to strengthen the roster will be the 2nd. With a fanbase needing this team to make the playoffs, converting some draft picks into NHL rostered players is a must. With it looking like a coaching change is in the offing, attracting FAs could be difficult. As a former GM stated, Sabres fans will have to endure some suffering, before it gets better, but when will the suffering end

Welcome New Poster!!!

Many people here mention the line combos as his fault - which is very amateur

His issue is the game plan ; where teams are easily able to pick off (unable to get the puck out of the D-- how many times has that happened?!?) --> is it too simple ? Too defensive risky ?

And his inability to adopt the team to the opposition

Welcome relatively New Poster!!!

This leaves out the people who know the Pegulas made it imperative to trade O'Reilly before the bonus payout. I was pissed about the return, and never had any delusions that Berglund and Sobotka were more than cap dumps to even out salary. Thompson is just a dice-roll prospect, along with the 1st. I know some people believe Botterill should have refused the Pegulas' demands, and basically quit his job over it...but that's a silly argument from people that don't have to pay his bills.

I blame Botterill for not making better secondary/tertiary moves to acquire slightly better place holders while shoring up the prospect pool and Rochester. But to me, that's not a very big deal because it's the difference between finishing as a bubble team or a bottom ten team. I'd rather have the better draft position so...

I blame Housley for forcing a defensive scheme that his roster can't handle, and failing to stick with pairings or usage that makes obviously more sense than what he's gone to/back to regularly. He could have TB as a wild-card team right now.

I agree with this. I can't see a rational "situation" where Botts trades ROR without directive from one/both Pegulas. Botts got fleeced. The only way he could possibly be forgiven is if it was known by STL Botts was directed to trade ROR and thus JB had minimal leverage. OTOH, depending on how much info was known, one would have to believe another team (teams?) would have anted up more.

 

[SundherDome]

It's like the stock market, it fluctuates daily even hourly.

 

[Chainshot]

Which non-adaptive individual should be at fault? It’s the worst of both worlds - the guy who is demonstrably bad at roster construction at the NHL level and his hire who is demonstrably bad at roster use. Good times.

 

[sabrebuild]

Which non-adaptive individual should be at fault? It’s the worst of both worlds - the guy who is demonstrably bad at roster construction at the NHL level and his hire who is demonstrably bad at roster use. Good times.

I hope some of us will take a lesson from this scenario.

Believe what people do, not what they say.

Housley has taken a better roster than what Bylsma had without question, and has produced significantly worse.

Botts has at best been shuffling talent. And if we look at next year, the reasons to expect improvement for the team are mostly Murray prospects. And a hope that Phil gets fired.

Can't wait to see the pegula machines next move.

 

[debaser66]

It's hard to say. What do we really know about what's going on? As Donald Rumsfeld said, "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know".

That sounds about right for a guy who imagined things that weren't there because they weren't there.

 

[debaser66]

Housley just has nothing what it takes to be a HC at this level.

Botts managing this season has been a complete disaster..
Not correcting his trade fiasko in anyway..
Keeping Thompson up
Quite similar to last season
Maybe he is just incompetent under his veil of longterm development.

If he keeps Housley and does not fire him after the season ends we know he is just incompetent

 

[sincerity0]

It comes down to 2 things

1) Acquiring talent
2) optimizing lineups

Botterill has power over 1 and influence over 2. Housley has moderate power over 2.

Botterill added Skinner, Sheary, And Pilut for peanuts. On the flip side he traded ROR for 4 pieces, 3 of which were negative wins/goals above replacement... not even wins/goals above ROR.

Although we consider the Skinner trade to be great value, ultimately all of that turns out to be a net even because of how badly the ROR trade turned out.

When we dig further Botterill did a couple things to hurt the Sabres. Once Hunwick and Wilson got healthy there became a roster squeeze. Buffalo had 8 or 9 NHL defensemen on the roster which squeezed out potential call ups who may have had a positive impact (Pilut, Borgen, Guhle before the trade). The same thing happened with the forwards.

Two - aside from a plethora of below average to average NHLers, Tage Thompson sat on this roster for about six months. It’s totally understandable from Botterills view to want to give Tage a shot. He played 2 years of college hockey and something like 40 AHL games. It was really upsetting that Tage got more than a fair look and was continuously getting opportunities over guys in Rochester who were deserving of a shot.

Botterill said that Housley has final descretion over the lineup but here’s why I disagree with that: the coach and GM need to be on the same page regarding roster make up. So while Housley May make up lines, Botterill gives Housley the lineup.

With that said... the reliance on shitty vets (Sobotka, Berglund) to play hyper defensive roles killed this team. The reliance on playing Scandella over guys like Nelson, Beaulieu or Pilut was crazy at times. I fully understand the limitations of those guys (for various reasons). When veterans and Tage Thompson are getting longer leashes than other players for no apparent reason it’s infuriating. Why does Sobotka (one of the worst forwards in the entire league) get such a long leash? Why does Mitts or Pilut get sat for making a mistake but players like Scandella or Sobotka not? In fact, it should be the other way around! Young players should get a longer leash and shorter players should get shorter. It’s ass backwards.

I feel like I could go on for days but I’ll finalize here. Ultimately the blame falls on Botterill for the sole reason that the ROR trade was so bad. Again, depending on who’s model you refer to (an I exact science) you’re looking at about a -13pt drop (-6.5 wins). I don’t have the #s in front of me right now but I’d imagine Dahlin (Botts gets no credit for), Skinner and Sheary add some of that back, maybe even to + terroritory.

 

[Hasekperreault23]

It comes down to 2 things

1) Acquiring talent
2) optimizing lineups

Botterill has power over 1 and influence over 2. Housley has moderate power over 2.

Botterill added Skinner, Sheary, And Pilut for peanuts. On the flip side he traded ROR for 4 pieces, 3 of which were negative wins/goals above replacement... not even wins/goals above ROR.

Although we consider the Skinner trade to be great value, ultimately all of that turns out to be a net even because of how badly the ROR trade turned out.

When we dig further Botterill did a couple things to hurt the Sabres. Once Hunwick and Wilson got healthy there became a roster squeeze. Buffalo had 8 or 9 NHL defensemen on the roster which squeezed out potential call ups who may have had a positive impact (Pilut, Borgen, Guhle before the trade). The same thing happened with the forwards.

Two - aside from a plethora of below average to average NHLers, Tage Thompson sat on this roster for about six months. It’s totally understandable from Botterills view to want to give Tage a shot. He played 2 years of college hockey and something like 40 AHL games. It was really upsetting that Tage got more than a fair look and was continuously getting opportunities over guys in Rochester who were deserving of a shot.

Botterill said that Housley has final descretion over the lineup but here’s why I disagree with that: the coach and GM need to be on the same page regarding roster make up. So while Housley May make up lines, Botterill gives Housley the lineup.

With that said... the reliance on ****ty vets (Sobotka, Berglund) to play hyper defensive roles killed this team. The reliance on playing Scandella over guys like Nelson, Beaulieu or Pilut was crazy at times. I fully understand the limitations of those guys (for various reasons). When veterans and Tage Thompson are getting longer leashes than other players for no apparent reason it’s infuriating. Why does Sobotka (one of the worst forwards in the entire league) get such a long leash? Why does Mitts or Pilut get sat for making a mistake but players like Scandella or Sobotka not? In fact, it should be the other way around! Young players should get a longer leash and shorter players should get shorter. It’s ass backwards.

I feel like I could go on for days but I’ll finalize here. Ultimately the blame falls on Botterill for the sole reason that the ROR trade was so bad. Again, depending on who’s model you refer to (an I exact science) you’re looking at about a -13pt drop (-6.5 wins). I don’t have the #s in front of me right now but I’d imagine Dahlin (Botts gets no credit for), Skinner and Sheary add some of that back, maybe even to + terroritory.

I agree with everything but Sheary..he is terrible also adding Huntwick and his salary is a negative trade

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

I agree with everything but Sheary..he is terrible also adding Huntwick and his salary is a negative trade

The Conor Sheary who is our 4th leading forward in scoring? The Conor Sheary who gets less then 15 mins a game and yet only has 8 less goals then Sam Reinhart over the last 3 years Conor Sheary?

After enduring the absolute GARBAGE this team employed at forward the last 8 years you want to bash one of the few forwards capable of 15-20 goals every season?

Yeah a 4th round pick for .5 ppg and 15-20 goals a season is a terrible trade. We need more 4ths like Jacob Bryson, Brett Murray, Colin Jacobs and Steven Shipley. Borgen, Barnaby, Foligno, Butler are the only 4th round picks of note for us since 89. None are that special.

 

[Hasekperreault23]

The Conor Sheary who is our 4th leading forward in scoring? The Conor Sheary who gets less then 15 mins a game and yet only has 8 less goals then Sam Reinhart over the last 3 years Conor Sheary?

After enduring the absolute GARBAGE this team employed at forward the last 8 years you want to bash one of the few forwards capable of 15-20 goals every season?

Yeah a 4th round pick for .5 ppg and 15-20 goals a season is a terrible trade. We need more 4ths like Jacob Bryson, Brett Murray, Colin Jacobs and Steven Shipley. Borgen, Barnaby, Foligno, Butler are the only 4th round picks of note for us since 89. None are that special.

Yes the Conor Sheary can't stay on his feet, never wins a battle in the corners, never shoots and is a turnover machine? Yes that Connar Sheary.So he is the 4th leading scorer at forward? Big deal.Maybe put total points with Reinhart and Sheary not just goals.Also the salary of Huntwick this year and next.I rather see what Nylander, Oloffson can do in a top 6 role than Sheary.Sorry to hurt your feelings nothing personal I just thought we were getting a much better player and a leader.

 

[5 Minute Major]

I sincerely hope they are both fired.

 

[sincerity0]

I agree with everything but Sheary..he is terrible also adding Huntwick and his salary is a negative trade

There’s about fifteen issues about this team before I get to Conor Sheary

 

[Buffaloed]

Maybe we should take a Solomonesque approach. Chopping off Botterill's head and Housley's arms and legs seems like a fair solution.

 

[Hasekperreault23]

There’s about fifteen issues about this team before I get to Conor Sheary

Oh no doubt I didn't say he was a big dud,i just said I expected more and the cap dump that was huntwick wasn't worth it in my opinion..just responded to last guy acting like he is a core piece.He is meh in my opinion

 

[GellMann]

The Conor Sheary who is our 4th leading forward in scoring? The Conor Sheary who gets less then 15 mins a game and yet only has 8 less goals then Sam Reinhart over the last 3 years Conor Sheary?

After enduring the absolute GARBAGE this team employed at forward the last 8 years you want to bash one of the few forwards capable of 15-20 goals every season?

Yeah a 4th round pick for .5 ppg and 15-20 goals a season is a terrible trade. We need more 4ths like Jacob Bryson, Brett Murray, Colin Jacobs and Steven Shipley. Borgen, Barnaby, Foligno, Butler are the only 4th round picks of note for us since 89. None are that special.

The Conor Sheary who scored 1 non-empty net goal in 43 games as we slid out of the standings in a freefall? Who, during that time period, was a bad hockey player that didn't contribute any offense, and is now a guy playing mediocre hockey and chipping in on occasion?

Sheary is more a problem than a solution, though he is a step up on 3LWs we've had in the recent past.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Maybe Conor Sheary was the night stalker we’ll never truly know.

Buuuut if his contributions aren’t well worth a 4th round pick are we working with a realistic standard?

 

[Sabre Dance]

I'm confident they equally suck at their jobs. Botterhill will get another chance though.