Bobby Clarke Versus Bryan Trottier

[Regal]

In Trottier's defense he was competing against Gretzky for awards throughout much of his prime. In '82 for example he finished 2nd in Hart voting behind 99.

That's kind of my point though. Orr and Gretzky were both extremely tough competition, and Orr was arguably a better player than Gretz at his best. It shouldn't be held against Trottier for not beating Gretzky, but the fact Clarke beat Orr is huge. Though, Orr being a defenseman may have made him less of a threat given how voting has gone historically.

 

[mja]

Bergeron's won four Selkes.

They didn't start giving out the Selke until Clarke was 28 (and he finished 4th in voting that year and won 1 later). If given out during his prime, he likely takes home several of them in the same years he won the Hart. Clarke threw up some defensive stats that are really difficult to comprehend they're so good. Here's an excerpt from a year-old article (by HF regular Mike Farkas) that rated Clarke the best defensive forward of all time:

According to statisticians who have far more ability than I, it’s estimated that in 1975 and 1976, the Flyers outscored their opposition by a ratio of 5 to 1 when Clarke was out there, when he wasn’t out there: just 3 to 2. Despite playing an obscene amount of time in all situations for the Flyers, Clarke was only on the ice for 19 even strength goals against in 1975 and 22 in 1976. To put it in some perspective, that’s a combined 41 goals. Pavel Datsyuk, resident Selke expert, was on the ice for 43 against in just one season (his best by the metric, 2008) while playing less time than Clarke, against worse competition than Clarke, in a far lower scoring era than Clarke…all the while Clarke led the league in assists both seasons which Datsyuk was fairly close to doing, but ultimately did not.

https://thehockeywriters.com/elite-eight-the-best-defensive-forwards-in-hockey-history/

 

[StoneHands]

That's kind of my point though. Orr and Gretzky were both extremely tough competition, and Orr was arguably a better player than Gretz at his best. It shouldn't be held against Trottier for not beating Gretzky, but the fact Clarke beat Orr is huge. Though, Orr being a defenseman may have made him less of a threat given how voting has gone historically.

Clarke was competing with Orr (8x Norris and 3x Hart winner) and Esposito (5x Art Ross and 2x Hart winner) both directly in their primes for the Hart each year and still came away with 3 of them.

Sure, Trottier was going up against Gretzky in his prime but he wasn't really the reason Trottier wasn't winning the Hart each year. It's not like he finished 2nd behind him 3-4 times. If Gretzky never played a game Trottier still only has 2 Hart's to Clarke's 3 while going head to head with Orr and Esposito.

I'm actually a little surprised the results of this poll re this close. I think it's a close but clear edge to Clarke here.

 

[arrbez]

That's kind of my point though. Orr and Gretzky were both extremely tough competition, and Orr was arguably a better player than Gretz at his best. It shouldn't be held against Trottier for not beating Gretzky, but the fact Clarke beat Orr is huge. Though, Orr being a defenseman may have made him less of a threat given how voting has gone historically.

Defensemen and goalies have been very undervalued in Hart voting in the modern era (post-war), so it's a tough comparison to make. Probably because both positions have their own subjective "best" award, while forwards have only the Hart and Lindsay available to them. But I don't think it's a reasonable comparison to equate beating Orr for the Hart and beating a Gretzky or Lemieux for the Hart.

If Bobby Clarke was born 10 years later, could you imagine him winning the Hart over a player who literally outscored him by 100 points? I can't.

Trottier's prime only half over-lapped with Gretzky anyhow, although he did have one runner-up to him in Hart voting (and another to Lafleur). I'd probably lean towards Clarke but it's real close.

 

[Spirit of 67]

I took Trottier.

But there is no wrong answer. You'd be ecstatic with either.

 

[Plural]

Clarke, the best defensive forward of all time. Also was elite offensively and as gritty as they come

Definitely not better than Gainey. But Clarke was absolutely phenomenal two-way player.

I voted Trottier since I have a man crush on him. But you could make a better case for Clarke.

 

[Plural]

Frank Nighbor is probably the best defensive forward ever with Clarke a close 2nd. Bobby was a little better offensively.

I thought it was well agreed upon that Gainey was the greatest defensive forward ever.

 

[ole ole]

I thought it was well agreed upon that Gainey was the greatest defensive forward ever.

Only by the greatest hockey minds in the world. That means very little on HF Boards.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Tough question. 2 great players. A very slight edge to Clarke. But 2 great players and leaders.

 

[streitz]

Trottier was better overall but Clarke was better defensively and had other positive qualities considering the era.

Clarke was the 2nd best offensive center of the 70's(behind Esposito), the best defensive center while being one of the dirtiest players in the league.
Trottier was great defensively, not as good as Clarke, while being better on offense overall and being extremely physical in a hard hitting sense.



Hard to say who I'd pick, can't go wrong with either.

 

[Gord]

one of the best polls in a long time. this is a tough call for me.
props to the OP.

with my age I am leaning towards Trottier because I saw him play more than I did Clarke, so a bit of a natural bias for me there.

will have to think on it some before I vote.

 

[nowhereman]

Imagine if Jonathan Toews was actually as good as some people thought he was back in 2010... that was Bobby Clarke. IMO, he was a perfect hockey player. And, yes, he was probably the best defensive forward of all time, with all due respect to Gainey and Bergeron.

Frank Nighbor is probably the best defensive forward ever with Clarke a close 2nd. Bobby was a little better offensively.

And you know this by watching him live and reviewing his countless highlights?

Nighbor was just the first to really play a complete two-way game. Doesn't mean he was the best. And, to be honest, there's really no way to even measure his ability. I mean, we're talking about a guy who played in an era where the slapshot hadn't even been invented yet.

 

[streitz]

Imagine if Jonathan Toews was actually as good as some people thought he was back in 2010... that was Bobby Clarke. IMO, he was a perfect hockey player. And, yes, he was probably the best defensive forward of all time, with all due respect to Gainey and Bergeron.


And you know this by watching him live and reviewing his countless highlights?

Nighbor was just the first to really play a complete two-way game. Doesn't mean he was the best. And, to be honest, there's really no way to even measure his ability. I mean, we're talking about a guy who played in an era where the slapshot hadn't even been invented yet.

Clarke was great defensively but don't oversell him. He was the best defensive center of the 70's but he wasn't as good as Carboneau or frankly Gainey in terms of forwards(Gainey was a winger).

 

[nowhereman]

Clarke was great defensively but don't oversell him. He was the best defensive center of the 70's but he wasn't as good as Carboneau or frankly Gainey in terms of forwards(Gainey was a winger).

Well, agree to disagree. That said, I think it would be a good poll subject ("best defensive player of all time").

 

[BlackFrancis]

Winning the Hart vs Orr while being outscored by a defenseman was a hell of an achievement. A poor choice, but one hell of an achievement.

Winning the Hart vs an injured Orr and a crippled Orr isn't all that notable aside from Orr nearly matching Clarke in 15 fewer games, playing as a defenseman.

That said, while I loved the Isles dynasty and Trottier, and Trottier was a better goal scorer, I have always had a spot in my heart for the little guys who were straight vicious.

 

[The Macho King]

I think this has to go to Clarke. Good poll though. They're pretty close on my top 100 list.

 

[HyPnOtiK]

I thought it was well agreed upon that Gainey was the greatest defensive forward ever.

Nope. Clarke > Gainey