Bob Cole Division Discussion Thread

[VMBM]

So as far as the Soviet league is concerned, the Krutov – Petrov – Makarov line didn't really play a prolonged role. But coupled with their World Championship performance, they were still one of the more prominent Soviet forward lines that season.

It seems that way, and even though I said that Petrov wasn't quite in his prime anymore (and he wasn't), somewhat ironically he had his best performance in years in that season as far as the Soviet MVP voting goes (5th in 1980-81, right?). Maybe he was a bit rejuvanated by the presence of Makarov and/or Krutov.

 

[Dreakmur]

So Keith did more in his career. Therefore he's better. Seems simple enough.

That’s one way to look at it.

It’s not like regular season, where whoever did more is better. The body of work tells you how much the player will raise their game, it at all, during the playoffs. If a guy has 2 really good playoff runs, and 5 terrible choke jobs, is he better than a guy who was really good in his only playoff run just because he has 2 good runs vs. 1?

 

[Pominville Knows]

Damn this thread has gotten active(As Borat Sagdijev would proclaim: "Very nice!"), and i see that there is some talk regarding defensemen. My back end consists of players that by average is on the low end in the league:

Duncan Keith - Alexei Kasatonov
Gary Suter - Red Horner
Mike Ramsey - Dustin Byfuglien

Besides that we defensively have confidence in bailouts from Glenn Hall, we feel that Duncan Keith in many ways can slide in as a stand in for Slava Fetisov with Kasatonov. This pair plays 20 minutes at even strength which is actually a relative positive when still not averaging an extreme amount of total minutes of 25 and 26 respectively.
Gary Suter and Red Horner is one nasty bunch, and it is good that when Gary decides to slash someone cowardly, Horner can take on any aggressive combatants becouse of it. They are both at least fair offensively and defensively, although Suter more so offensively while Horner is more balanced. In this league Suter might even be questionable defensively, but not a non-factor, he is mobile.
Mike Ramsey is good defensively for a third pair guy and can at least make a first pass, not the least to Byfuglien but it is also so that we overall don't need much more than first passes becouse we have guys like Bobby Hull and Sergei Makarov that can rush the puck and swirl with the puck up ice, respectively. Hopefully Henrik Sedin can protect the puck for a while and use Craig Ramsay as an opportunistic support while Cam Neely bulls up the ice beside them ready to get it sooner or later.
When it comes to Houlé-Backes-Ellis offence is not really the focus but the wingers is mobile so they might get something done once every full moon.
Still, guys like Keith, Kasatonov, Suter and Byfuglien possess some fair offensive capacities in this setting.

 

[Thenameless]

So Keith did more in his career. Therefore he's better. Seems simple enough.

Careful. It could be argued that Jagr and Crosby (once he's done) did more in their career than Lemieux. They are not better.

 

[jarek]

Careful. It could be argued that Jagr and Crosby (once he's done) did more in their career than Lemieux. They are not better.

In this specific circumstance, we were talking about post-season play. If all else is equal, Keith having those 2 extra strong runs on Doughty should put him above Doughty.

 

[Dreakmur]

In this specific circumstance, we were talking about post-season play. If all else is equal, Keith having those 2 extra strong runs on Doughty should put him above Doughty.

Both guys raise their games in the play-offs, right? By about the same amount, right?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Shouldn't the Kings' 2013 Conference Finals loss to Chicago be considered a serious run for Doughty? Was it not counted because they lost in 5 games?

I guess if one were to count that then you'd also have to count Keith's 2009. Still, 3 rounds of playoff hockey seems significant to me.

 

[jarek]

Both guys raise their games in the play-offs, right? By about the same amount, right?

Sure. Keith just did it more often.

I don't know how anyone can see that as anything other than giving the playoffs edge to Keith. Unless you just don't count anything after x amount of good runs.

 

[Dreakmur]

Sure. Keith just did it more often.

I don't know how anyone can see that as anything other than giving the playoffs edge to Keith. Unless you just don't count anything after x amount of good runs.

It's not about how many, it's about how often. How many good play-offs vs. how many bad play-offs. Did he ever really have a chance to shine?

 

[Leaf Lander]

I think all my lines are better then my opponents & my defence is superior 1 thru 8
I have a great money goalie and a decent backup

plus a coach who is pretty smart

 

[Dreakmur]

I think all my lines are better then my opponents & my defence is superior 1 thru 8
I have a great money goalie and a decent backup

plus a coach who is pretty smart

I agree that your top-4 defensemen are extremely strong, but you build that blue line at the expense of your forwards. Yoda sacrificed his blueline to build other areas, and we tried to balance out lineup.

Your top 2 lines are easily the weakest of the 3 teams here. Your goalie is also the weakest in the division. You're defense, however, might be enough to make up for that. We'll see.

 

[Dreakmur]

Third Lines:
I should really just do an even strength scoring comparison, but I can't find that chart right now, and I'm just being lazy... So correct me if I'm wrong here. Claude Provost is a really strong ES scorer. Craig Ramsay and Bob Pulford were quite good as well. Goyette, Neely, and Simmer, also seem like decent ES scorers. The rest are more PP types.


Bob Pulford-Phil Goyette-Claude Provost (7 season vs.x score: 202.3)

• Well, I think this is one of the best checking lines in the draft. Elite defensive wingers who are skilled enough to score and a responsible center who can actually create some chances for the wingers to take advantage of their skill. One of the most important thing for a 3rd line, in my opinion, is the ability to score at even strength, since they often don't get power play time, and this line is a really strong even strength scoring line.

Craig Ramsay-Henrik Sedin-Cam Neely (7 season vs.x score: 203.2)

• I'm a big Ramsay fan. He might be the best defensive left winger of all time. Sedin is an under-rated scoring center - he was one of the guys I thought would drop enough to allow us to use Maltsev on Sakic's RW - though his even strength scoring is a little less impressive. Neely, however, is just such a poor scorer. He's not unlike Cashman in that his physical play has always got him drafted way before he should go.

Charlie Simmer-Bernie Federko-Peter Bondra (7 season vs.x score: 214.8)

• An all offense / no defense line, but it's barely better offensively than it's counterparts. At even strength, it's probably the weakest offensively, since both Bondra and Federko were such high scorers on the PP. Even as a scoring line, it would be lacking defensive play and toughness.

Well, I think New Jersey has the clear edge here. I'm not sure which of Pominville or Toronto I like more. Pominville's has more balance, so maybe that line.

New Jersey >> Pominville = Toronto

 

[Pominville Knows]

Third Lines:
I should really just do an even strength scoring comparison, but I can't find that chart right now, and I'm just being lazy... So correct me if I'm wrong here. Claude Provost is a really strong ES scorer. Craig Ramsay and Bob Pulford were quite good as well. Goyette, Neely, and Simmer, also seem like decent ES scorers. The rest are more PP types.


Bob Pulford-Phil Goyette-Claude Provost (7 season vs.x score: 202.3)

• Well, I think this is one of the best checking lines in the draft. Elite defensive wingers who are skilled enough to score and a responsible center who can actually create some chances for the wingers to take advantage of their skill. One of the most important thing for a 3rd line, in my opinion, is the ability to score at even strength, since they often don't get power play time, and this line is a really strong even strength scoring line.

Craig Ramsay-Henrik Sedin-Cam Neely (7 season vs.x score: 203.2)

• I'm a big Ramsay fan. He might be the best defensive left winger of all time. Sedin is an under-rated scoring center - he was one of the guys I thought would drop enough to allow us to use Maltsev on Sakic's RW - though his even strength scoring is a little less impressive. Neely, however, is just such a poor scorer. He's not unlike Cashman in that his physical play has always got him drafted way before he should go.

Charlie Simmer-Bernie Federko-Peter Bondra (7 season vs.x score: 214.8)

• An all offense / no defense line, but it's barely better offensively than it's counterparts. At even strength, it's probably the weakest offensively, since both Bondra and Federko were such high scorers on the PP. Even as a scoring line, it would be lacking defensive play and toughness.

Well, I think New Jersey has the clear edge here. I'm not sure which of Pominville or Toronto I like more. Pominville's has more balance, so maybe that line.

New Jersey >> Pominville = Toronto

Ramsay is actually worst on my line when it comes to 7yr normalized to 70 ES VsX scoring at 44, Neely is at 48 and Sedin at 63.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/even-strength-vsx.2454659/


For us Henrik Sedin will like to utilize the swift Ramsay a bit with the Give-and-go to not be forced to have the puck all the time(Ramsay had 63% of his points as assists at ES), but as soon as it gets to Neely then neither of them will see it much more.
When Sedin has it deep in the offensive zone, should he lose it, perennial Selke trophy candidate Ramsay will be in position to try and get it back.
The line could be likened with a mash between the Ramsay-Luce-Gare line and one involving the net crashing goal scoring Right Wing that Sedin has always wanted.

 

[Dreakmur]

Ramsay is actually worst on my line when it comes to 7yr normalized to 70 ES VsX scoring at 44, Neely is at 48 and Sedin at 63.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/even-strength-vsx.2454659/

I meant compared to their overall scoring.

Sedin scores a higher percentage of his points on the PP than most - leaving just 64% of his points at even strength. Neely scored 67% of his points at even strength, and Ramsay an extremely high 84%.

 

[Dreakmur]

Thank you for posting that chart. Saved so I never have to search for it again!

The lines came out essentially how I thought they would:
New Jersey - 49 + 51 + 52 = 152
Pominville - 44 + 63 + 48 = 155
Toronto - 43 + 52 + 49 = 144

 

[jarek]

It's not about how many, it's about how often. How many good play-offs vs. how many bad play-offs. Did he ever really have a chance to shine?

We'll agree to disagree then. I prefer a good volume over a good rate in the playoffs.

 

[jarek]

Voting is now open for the regular season of the ATD and will close on Sunday, April 1st at midnight EST. Please send your votes to @Theokritos.

Please vote for each division separately. You may, if you wish, compare the teams to teams outside of their divisions in order to rank them, but this is neither required nor encouraged.