GDT: Blues vs. Aves/Lanche | 8:00 | Dec 13 | Casper Returns

[Nihiliste]

Avs aren't that young anymore. Duchene and O'Reilly are in their sixth seasons and Landeskog played like a veteran as a rookie. The team is the 12th oldest team in the league, older than Boston, Chicago and Anaheim.

It's only MacKinnon and to some extent Barrie that I would characterize as young players that I expect to have young player struggles. Perhaps Redmond too, since he hasn't played that many games as a pro.

Avs are a bad team struggling. Not a young team struggling. The lack of skill on this team is on display every game. Hopefully part of the reason for the team playing as poorly as they are is confidence too, because that's easier to fix than not being good at playing hockey.

100% spot on. This team is not particularly young, fast, skilled. The organization is going to have to draft and trade exceptionally well if they want to surround this core with a team that can win.

 

[tigervixxxen]

This is the core we have. If they don't have the talent then come back in 10 years. They'll add some more pieces around it but pretty much this is it.

 

[Nihiliste]

This is the core we have. If they don't have the talent then come back in 10 years. They'll add some more pieces around it but pretty much this is it.

Whether or not this core becomes one capable of winning depends on a couple of things; Mackinnon's development, acquiring or developing a dman equal to or better than EJ to help anchor the D, and the outcome of the O'reilly contract situation.

For the rest, our drafting and development of complementary players is going to need to be better given that some of our core players don't seem to be the type that are able to consistently control play against their counterparts.

 

[tigervixxxen]

That's all true but if this core isn't skilled enough well then good luck.

 

[Freudian]

There are three parts that make teams good. Skill, hard work and structure.

If you aren't more skilled than other teams, you have to be better at the other two things to be successful.

Avs are getting there with structure. They need to upgrade skill (and they will). They need to start working as hard as the hardest working teams to get anywhere.

The top teams in the league are all hard working teams. The teams that have improved this year do it because they're very hard working (Jets, Flames, Preds). There is no way around it, until Avs start to match other teams in effort they aren't going to go anywhere.

 

[AvsWraith]

Still can't get over how bad the passing is this year. Not just complicated stretch passes, but simple passes are getting messed up and mishandled as well. Think they need to spend a few practices drilling fundamentals because the passing should not be this bad.

 

[thigpen]

It is kinda funny that his (Staz) publicly stated reason for leaving was that he didn't want to be the 3rd line center behind Dutchy and MacKinnion. But that's exactly where he ended up just in STL. The 7 mill a season must be a nice comfort

He's been centering the "3rd" line for the Blues for a few reasons that he probably didn't anticipate. First, Lehtera has been better than expected and his chemistry with Tarasenko makes it hard to remove him from that scoring line which, along with Schwartz, is where Staz will likely play if Lehtera gets injured. Second, it's taken some time for his game to return post shoulder injury, which gave the other lines time to gain chemistry. Third, it's taken time to adjust to Blues style of play; with the exception of the STL line, it's more North-South and less give-and-go than he's used to.

I think it's also fair to say that Staz brought it in his contract year (as any business man would), and he's probably saving some juice for the playoffs this season. However, there's been a fair amount of discussion about getting another winger to play on his line. It would likely be a rental until Fabri comes in next season.

 

[tigervixxxen]

There's a lot of people here who still believe Stastny is a good player, you don't have to convince us. But there truth is the team's highest paid player is getting those minutes right now. I also know now isn't indicative of the rest of his contract length.

 

[cgf]

There are three parts that make teams good. Skill, hard work and structure.

If you aren't more skilled than other teams, you have to be better at the other two things to be successful.

Avs are getting there with structure. They need to upgrade skill (and they will). They need to start working as hard as the hardest working teams to get anywhere.

The top teams in the league are all hard working teams. The teams that have improved this year do it because they're very hard working (Jets, Flames, Preds). There is no way around it, until Avs start to match other teams in effort they aren't going to go anywhere.

The avs worked as hard as any team last year. I don't know how much of this year is that they're not working as hard, and how much of it is that because they're not as sure of themselves they're a hesitant in everything they do; which gives the opposition that split second advantage to dominate us in board battles and other 50/50s that went our way last year.

It just looks like too many of our guys are thinking too much out on the ice, instead of just going for it. Which is why they suck so much harder in puck battles. At least at this point. At the start of the season there probably was some complacency in the kids that required a good 'umbling.

 

[FoppaForsberg*]

Lmao at people saying we aren't young and skilled. The only core guy we have over 25 is EJ... Gimme a break.

When the wins are coming, everyone's optimistic crazed, when they're not, the sky is falling.

 

[Lawine]

This is the core we have. If they don't have the talent then come back in 10 years. They'll add some more pieces around it but pretty much this is it.

General question:

Why do hockey teams seem to take longer turning around their respective franchises and developing prospects in comparison to, for example, the NFL? I still have to use the pro football frame of reference to be able to relate to and make sense of certain pro hockey facets.

 

[InjuredChoker]

General question:

Why do hockey teams seem to take longer turning around their respective franchises and developing prospects in comparison to, for example, the NFL? I still have to use the pro football frame of reference to be able to relate to and make sense of certain pro hockey facets.

NFL players when drafted are older, no?

 

[Lawine]

NFL players when drafted are older, no?

I don't know whether this is a rhetorical question, but yes.

 

[cgf]

Lmao at people saying we aren't young and skilled. The only core guy we have over 25 is EJ... Gimme a break.

When the wins are coming, everyone's optimistic crazed, when they're not, the sky is falling.

It's more a piece of statistics often being misleading. Stastistically we aren't insanely young, because a lot of our supporting players and depth guys are older. So in a sense we technically aren't a young team.

Now I would argue with that because our most important players and core guys are all 26 and under. But it is technically correct, the best kind of correct!

*and Varly, he's 26 already to. Which admittedly isn't exactly old for a goalie, just like it isn't for a huge Dman like EJ. Which makes us even younger in the sense of how far off we are from our core entering their primes and how long we have until this core's window closes; as the positions where our core guys are a little older are positions where guys usually peak later and stay effective longer. Shame we couldn't've added Bigras and Siemens to the organization 2-3 years earlier. Then we'd be really perfectly set up, our youngest core guys would be our future Franchise C and Captain. As is the last dmen are a couple years behind where the forwards are, which is fine as long as we can add the right guys to fill the holes until the kids are ready. Hejda and Stuart were fine for what they were, but we need more out of this summer.

 

[tigervixxxen]

General question:

Why do hockey teams seem to take longer turning around their respective franchises and developing prospects in comparison to, for example, the NFL? I still have to use the pro football frame of reference to be able to relate to and make sense of certain pro hockey facets.

Their career lengths are shorter too. A lot of guys don't see contract extensions whereas in hockey a team builds a core that can be around 10+ years. Think of Duchene and O'Reilly, in their SIXTH (!) season here and how many Broncos are even still in football much less on the team from 6 years ago. Also guys in the NFL are already "developed" when they are drafted, most will play that year or the next. In hockey most draft picks are 18 and go back to junior for two more years. So build it right and the core stats around a long time but build it wrong takes a lot of time to assemble. Also, more trades in hockey because contracts are fully guaranteed and draft picks are more valuable.

 

[cgf]

General question:

Why do hockey teams seem to take longer turning around their respective franchises and developing prospects in comparison to, for example, the NFL? I still have to use the pro football frame of reference to be able to relate to and make sense of certain pro hockey facets.

Because the NFL is a crazy bird and american football doesn't make sense a lot times. Because of the structure of the game their is an obscenely large impact made by coaching, the quarterback position, and injuries that make it so much fun to follow, especially as a giants' fan who's team have been the epitome of ridiculous things happening on the field, but it also makes everything insanely volatile from year to year. Throw in how prevalent season ending and career altering injuries are that entirely change a team's strengths in an instant. Again my giants are a prime example with JPP and Cruz, two of the premier guys at their positions before they got hurt, now we desperately need to replace them even though we just added a phenomenal kid at Cruz's position. Or the insane beating playing the sport requires, so when athletes start to lose their lust for the game they very quickly fall off hard and the salary stops being insufficient to give the guy that true fire that they needed to be effective.

There's certainly many players who are very good for very long times, but the average NFL career was ~3 seasons, last I checked, and teams have 50+ guys under contract when the season begins, so teams have massive roster-turnover every few years because of the way contracts work and just how many injuries there are. When my giants won 2 superbowls in 4 years more than 2/3rds of the roster had changed between the two teams.

Add to this that NFL teams can not draft players until they are three years removed from their High School graduating class, making draftees all 20+ and much more polished than the 17/18 year olds that the NHL drafts. Plus Football is a sport where supreme athleticism with basic skill beats supreme skill and basic athletic-gifts the vast majority of the time in many positions, so that players don't need nearly as much polish as long as they can understand their schemes and what duties are demanded of them on any given play. Making it easier to cycle through new players.

Then there's the turnover in coaching, with new coordinators comes, new terminology, new plays/concepts/schemes, meaning players are relearning what they're supposed to be doing every 2-3, and that's if they're staying with the same team for a long time. Since NFL contracts are not guaranteed, and performances fluctuate so massively from season to season based on tons of factors, not many players don't get cut sooner or later.

I've rambled through enough of the many reasons why the NFL is just weird and different from the NHL or world soccer. The NBA's just dumb and I hate them cause they're stupid (bitter knicks fan), and I don't know about baseball because that's just too american for me, but the NFL is weird. Hilarious, fascinating, terrifying, and insanely entertaining though it often is, it's a very different game and league.

 

[cgf]

Their career lengths are shorter too. A lot of guys don't see contract extensions whereas in hockey a team builds a core that can be around 10+ years. Think of Duchene and O'Reilly, in their SIXTH (!) season here and how many Broncos are even still in football much less on the team from 6 years ago. Also guys in the NFL are already "developed" when they are drafted, most will play that year or the next. In hockey most draft picks are 18 and go back to junior for two more years. So build it right and the core stats around a long time but build it wrong takes a lot of time to assemble. Also, more trades in hockey because contracts are fully guaranteed and draft picks are more valuable.

Yep, when you've got 20+ guys on a team in a sport where the average career length is around 6 years, I think, teams are together much longer than a sport where you've got 50+ guys on a team with an average career length around 3 years.

 

[Nihiliste]

That's all true but if this core isn't skilled enough well then good luck.

It's not saying much since most cores assembled around the league aren't good enough to win the cup at a given point in time. But there's a good chance that's where we're heading.

 

[ABasin]

This is the core we have. If they don't have the talent then come back in 10 years.

Why 10 years?

I've been reluctant to put this forward, but I'm beginning to believe that it's plausible that the Avs 'rebuild' is still only partially done, and that they won't really be in a position to contend until Duchene et al are 26-30 years old. They simply need more talent around 'the core', or they need to add to the core to get it done.

But even if that's true, I don't see why it would take 10 years.

No offense intended, but you seem to have this vision that if this current 'core' can't contend, that it must be totally 100% blown up and the Avs need to start over. Why can't they keep 4-6 young-ish players, and 'rebuild' (or 'reset') from there?

 

[tigervixxxen]

If one doesn't believe in this core at all then they'd need to wait until the next "generation". I don't know how long anyone will be here but the assumption is a generation (whatever you want to call that if 10 more years is too specific) of Duchene, Landy and MacKinnon. There is a huge difference between adding to the core and changing the core. I don't have that vision that they have to go, I believe in them. What that ultimately means, I don't know. But I'm willing to ride it out with them.

 

[Nihiliste]

Why 10 years?

I've been reluctant to put this forward, but I'm beginning to believe that it's plausible that the Avs 'rebuild' is still only partially done, and that they won't really be in a position to contend until Duchene et al are 26-30 years old. They simply need more talent around 'the core', or they need to add to the core to get it done.

But even if that's true, I don't see why it would take 10 years.

No offense intended, but you seem to have this vision that if this current 'core' can't contend, that it must be totally 100% blown up and the Avs need to start over. Why can't they keep 4-6 young-ish players, and 'rebuild' (or 'reset') from there?

Absolutely - and I don't think its really that unusual. While teams get there through different development paths, most contenders have both young and veteran core players. We essentially started from scratch with the Duchene draft and with the addition of some missteps there was more work to be done than I originally thought there might be. If this group is going to win down the road its going to be because we draft well enough to have a second wave of talent to come up and solidify the ranks a few years down the road.

I personally think the Wild are building a winner and I think they're a good example, though obviously its not standard fare for a team to get several top tier FA signings in short order. But what I'm alluding to more is their structure of core veterans (Koivu, Parise, Suter) and emerging core players (Brodin, Granlund, Coyle). Koivu is turning 31 and in his 10th season and has finally been surrounded with talent that is starting to look like a contender - I envision a similar timeframe being needed with our guys.

 

[Rumplesnipeskin]

To add my two cents, although quite late, I think the avs are fine offensively, relatively speaking. When the defense doesn't pass well, and you can't effectively use the points in the offensive zone, it makes it difficult on a team. Conversely, it makes it quite easy on opposing defenses, and I believe we see that in how they collapse this year on our forwards.

The defense looks terrible, but I believe that Roy and Sakic have faith in the solid prospects we now have in our system. Hopefully one or two of those guys are ready to join the team in 2015-2016. As Barrie, Redmond, and EJ continue to progress, they will be able to welcome the younger guys and even help to mentor them.

Everyone compares us to the Red Wings post-lockout, and praises their approach of patiently developing talent in the AHL, while we lost our core and struggled (basically) ever since. And now that we are emulating that style, which I believe to be effective, people are complaining and moaning about growing pains.

I'll be the first to say I abhor numerous moves the avs have made ('Olden, and of course my favorite punching bag McLeod). There are also others that haven't panned out (Iginla, Berra). These are all going to end about the same time as when (in my mind) the remainder of the now developing core is at the NHL level.

Many nights, the on ice product flat out sucks. I will not argue that. I remain steadfast in my belief that the team has a bright future, though. Hang in there fellow Avs fans

 

[tigervixxxen]

One thing about MacKinnon, has he ever played on a bad team? He's pretty used to winning. I'd have to think that's going to be an adjustment for him to knowing how to play his game when the team he is on doesn't have momentum.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

One thing about MacKinnon, has he ever played on a bad team? He's pretty used to winning. I'd have to think that's going to be an adjustment for him to knowing how to play his game when the team he is on doesn't have momentum.

MacKinnon is going through what Duchene did.

He has to grow up, both on ice and off ice.

 

[Lawine]

Because the NFL is a crazy bird and american football doesn't make sense a lot times. Because of the structure of the game their is an obscenely large impact made by coaching, the quarterback position, and injuries that make it so much fun to follow, especially as a giants' fan who's team have been the epitome of ridiculous things happening on the field, but it also makes everything insanely volatile from year to year. Throw in how prevalent season ending and career altering injuries are that entirely change a team's strengths in an instant. Again my giants are a prime example with JPP and Cruz, two of the premier guys at their positions before they got hurt, now we desperately need to replace them even though we just added a phenomenal kid at Cruz's position. Or the insane beating playing the sport requires, so when athletes start to lose their lust for the game they very quickly fall off hard and the salary stops being insufficient to give the guy that true fire that they needed to be effective.

There's certainly many players who are very good for very long times, but the average NFL career was ~3 seasons, last I checked, and teams have 50+ guys under contract when the season begins, so teams have massive roster-turnover every few years because of the way contracts work and just how many injuries there are. When my giants won 2 superbowls in 4 years more than 2/3rds of the roster had changed between the two teams.

Add to this that NFL teams can not draft players until they are three years removed from their High School graduating class, making draftees all 20+ and much more polished than the 17/18 year olds that the NHL drafts. Plus Football is a sport where supreme athleticism with basic skill beats supreme skill and basic athletic-gifts the vast majority of the time in many positions, so that players don't need nearly as much polish as long as they can understand their schemes and what duties are demanded of them on any given play. Making it easier to cycle through new players.

Then there's the turnover in coaching, with new coordinators comes, new terminology, new plays/concepts/schemes, meaning players are relearning what they're supposed to be doing every 2-3, and that's if they're staying with the same team for a long time. Since NFL contracts are not guaranteed, and performances fluctuate so massively from season to season based on tons of factors, not many players don't get cut sooner or later.

I've rambled through enough of the many reasons why the NFL is just weird and different from the NHL or world soccer. The NBA's just dumb and I hate them cause they're stupid (bitter knicks fan), and I don't know about baseball because that's just too american for me, but the NFL is weird. Hilarious, fascinating, terrifying, and insanely entertaining though it often is, it's a very different game and league.

Now, this is a post that makes me contemplate what I have witnessed in pro sports in general and the NFL and NHL in particular. Thanks!