GDT: Blues @ Trashville

[TheOrganist]

One thing I do hope is they trade Buch at the draft. Good player but I think it's clear that you'll be spending a nice chunk of money on a guy who is probably not going to help propel you to a Cup by the time the team is ready to compete...and even if he does, you'll be paying him a lot on the downside of his career arc when your new core will need to get paid. Will also "help" the team stink next year. With that in mind, I expect Armstrong to lock him up long-term as he had a quote after the deadline indicating as much.

 

[PocketNines]

One thing I do hope is they trade Buch at the draft. Good player but I think it's clear that you'll be spending a nice chunk of money on a guy who is probably not going to help propel you to a Cup by the time the team is ready to compete...and even if he does, you'll be paying him a lot on the downside of his career arc when your new core will need to get paid. Will also "help" the team stink next year. With that in mind, I expect Armstrong to lock him up long-term as he had a quote after the deadline indicating as much.

tough but fair

 

[TheOrganist]

tough but fair

That's what my son tells me...

 

[Hrkac Circus]

Someone should post a poll question. Should the Blues full rebuild next season, do another retool year and hope for a wildcard, or try to make the team truly playoff competitive? I would do it but I’m on the site free and it erases anything I try to do every minute or so.

 

[Stealth JD]

Buch's value has only diminished since the TDL. His 2nd half has been ass, and now he's going to be looking for a big payday from an acquiring team. It will be interesting to see what Army does with him. Keep him as an own-rental without an extension. Peddle him to the highest bidder, pre-extension. Extend him. I'm not sure the return will be what we'd all like to see; so maybe he's simply held until the TDL and moved then when teams are desperate to add for a Cup-run.

 

[ort]

There is no magic solution, there are 32 teams all trying to do the same thing and none of them are stupid. There is no easy answer or template to follow, but if you look at the majority of cup contending teams, they all build around key pieces they acquired when they very bad and drafting very high. The problem is that a fourth of the league is usually doing that at any given time and not everyone can be a winner. Obviously.

 

[Hrkac Circus]

There is no magic solution, there are 32 teams all trying to do the same thing and none of them are stupid. There is no easy answer or template to follow, but if you look at the majority of cup contending teams, they all build around key pieces they acquired when they very bad and drafting very high. The problem is that a fourth of the league is usually doing that at any given time and not everyone can be a winner. Obviously.

 

[Majorityof1]

As to whether we will get as good a prospect at 16 as 5, on average better prospects are generally picked higher. However, there are myriad of elite players picked outside top 10- pasta, fox, mcavoy, point, josi, thomas, slavin, Kucherov, Marchand, barzal, Larkin, etc.. so it’s not like you can’t get franchise player if you don’t pick in top 5.

Only 4 of those players have a cup. 2 play for TB with top 5 pick Hedman. Thomas was a rookie with top 5 Peietrangelo. Marchand is the only one who won without a prominent top 5 pick, although 3OA Horton had more points that season than Marchand.

 

[Blueston]

Only 4 of those players have a cup. 2 play for TB with top 5 pick Hedman. Thomas was a rookie with top 5 Peietrangelo. Marchand is the only one who won without a prominent top 5 pick, although 3OA Horton had more points that season than Marchand.

sure, but how many Cups have mcdavid, berard, dahlin, power, slaf, laf, hughes, hischier, matthews, and ekblad (last 10 1oa picks, not in order obviously) won? zero. of last 15 10 mackninnon is only one to have won a Cup. let's not act like that is sure fire path to glory.

 

[PJJJP]

Honestly our goalies have covered up a lot of holes in our team this year. They have performed very very well and have stolen us games and kept us in a lot of them where we end up squeaking out a win. If anything Binnington and Hofer playing very well has prevented us from moving up in the draft. Goalies can make or break your season and our goalies have helped us out a lot. Analytically we are still in the bottom 10 for expected goals for and against

 

[BadgersandBlues]

Last night's game is the reason I think Bannister isn't the coach for us. I have been completely unimpressed with our 5v5 play for the majority of the year and the underlying metrics are legit worst in the league under Bannister prior to last night's game. I've been pulling my hair out all season b/c yes, our roster has flaws, and yes, we probably aren't competing for a Cup this year or next. But good God man, our roster has enough talent that it shouldn't be THIS awful. Worse then Chicago, San Jose, Columbus, Anaheim, and Montreal? No shot.

So last night happens. We played lights out. I mean seriously, that was probably the best I've seen us play all season. Our forecheck was amazing. We were crashing the net hard. We were taking it to Nashville for a lot of the game. Did we make mistakes? Yea. Did we play great for all 60 minutes? Nope. But on balance, we were BY FAR the better team. Binnington was uncharacteristically shaky and we lost. Sucks, but THIS is the performance I've thought this team capable of for most of the season, and it didn't happen until we were well and truly with our backs against the wall.

Had we played like this for even 50% of the season, with our goaltending? We're easily a playoff team. I know that's tough for team tank to hear, but it's the truth. This team has talent. It -should- be in the mix. But for whatever reason, we haven't been able to really find a system and flow that allows us to put continous pressure on the other team. It's been driving me crazy all season and last night was the (Thankfully) ok so I'm not crazy this is just bullshit moment for me.

 

[Xerloris]

Last night's game is the reason I think Bannister isn't the coach for us. I have been completely unimpressed with our 5v5 play for the majority of the year and the underlying metrics are legit worst in the league under Bannister prior to last night's game. I've been pulling my hair out all season b/c yes, our roster has flaws, and yes, we probably aren't competing for a Cup this year or next. But good God man, our roster has enough talent that it shouldn't be THIS awful. Worse then Chicago, San Jose, Columbus, Anaheim, and Montreal? No shot.

So last night happens. We played lights out. I mean seriously, that was probably the best I've seen us play all season. Our forecheck was amazing. We were crashing the net hard. We were taking it to Nashville for a lot of the game. Did we make mistakes? Yea. Did we play great for all 60 minutes? Nope. But on balance, we were BY FAR the better team. Binnington was uncharacteristically shaky and we lost. Sucks, but THIS is the performance I've thought this team capable of for most of the season, and it didn't happen until we were well and truly with our backs against the wall.

Had we played like this for even 50% of the season, with our goaltending? We're easily a playoff team. I know that's tough for team tank to hear, but it's the truth. This team has talent. It -should- be in the mix. But for whatever reason, we haven't been able to really find a system and flow that allows us to put continous pressure on the other team. It's been driving me crazy all season and last night was the (Thankfully) ok so I'm not crazy this is just bullshit moment for me.

I agree but probably for different reasons. Not saying your reasons are wrong but I just don't really look into advanced stats but my eye test tells me Bannister is not the right coach, he's not terrible but definitely not the guy. I wish we had jumped on Roy before the Islanders snagged him. Hell I'd take Torts too. Maybe we can get Hitchcock out of retirement? This team needs to learn the defense again.

 

[taylord22]

One thing I do hope is they trade Buch at the draft. Good player but I think it's clear that you'll be spending a nice chunk of money on a guy who is probably not going to help propel you to a Cup by the time the team is ready to compete...and even if he does, you'll be paying him a lot on the downside of his career arc when your new core will need to get paid. Will also "help" the team stink next year. With that in mind, I expect Armstrong to lock him up long-term as he had a quote after the deadline indicating as much.

Agree with this — the only reasonable other side of this coin, IMO, is whether the org truly believes he can hold down the fort as a 2nd line C for a few years while we wait for another option to emerge (i.e. Dovorsky). That adds some value; it doesn't zero out the risk, but makes it more tolerable.

I haven't loved him at Center, but he's a good distributor, and a great defender. And it would keep us out of F/A, and focus our potential trade assets on a defender, which is a plus for me.

 

[Celtic Note]

The last rebuild netted us ej and Petro and oshie and bunch of other guys who had little to do with Cup. Petro was important part of it, but ROR and binny and jaybo and parayko and tank and Schwartz and the rest weren’t because we bottomed out.

As to whether we will get as good a prospect at 16 as 5, on average better prospects are generally picked higher. However, there are myriad of elite players picked outside top 10- pasta, fox, mcavoy, point, josi, thomas, slavin, Kucherov, Marchand, barzal, Larkin, etc.. so it’s not like you can’t get franchise player if you don’t pick in top 5.

One takeaway from the EJ and Petro selections is that bottoming out for more than one year is advisable in case you miss. And without Petro there absolutely is no Cup in STL despite finding guys outside of the top ten.

 

[Blueston]

One takeaway from the EJ and Petro selections is that bottoming out for more than one year is advisable in case you miss. And without Petro there absolutely is no Cup in STL despite finding guys outside of the top ten.

there is maybe nothing we need more today than a 23 year old petro.

 

[Celtic Note]

Last night's game is the reason I think Bannister isn't the coach for us. I have been completely unimpressed with our 5v5 play for the majority of the year and the underlying metrics are legit worst in the league under Bannister prior to last night's game. I've been pulling my hair out all season b/c yes, our roster has flaws, and yes, we probably aren't competing for a Cup this year or next. But good God man, our roster has enough talent that it shouldn't be THIS awful. Worse then Chicago, San Jose, Columbus, Anaheim, and Montreal? No shot.

So last night happens. We played lights out. I mean seriously, that was probably the best I've seen us play all season. Our forecheck was amazing. We were crashing the net hard. We were taking it to Nashville for a lot of the game. Did we make mistakes? Yea. Did we play great for all 60 minutes? Nope. But on balance, we were BY FAR the better team. Binnington was uncharacteristically shaky and we lost. Sucks, but THIS is the performance I've thought this team capable of for most of the season, and it didn't happen until we were well and truly with our backs against the wall.

Had we played like this for even 50% of the season, with our goaltending? We're easily a playoff team. I know that's tough for team tank to hear, but it's the truth. This team has talent. It -should- be in the mix. But for whatever reason, we haven't been able to really find a system and flow that allows us to put continous pressure on the other team. It's been driving me crazy all season and last night was the (Thankfully) ok so I'm not crazy this is just bullshit moment for me.

And if our goaltending isnt playing exceptional like they have been, the boost in play you are extrapolating from the game last night (which was a pinnacle for the season and not likely sustainable with this team as I am not sure we have even cobbled together any significant stretch that resembles last night), we are probably in a similar position.

While an agree that I am not impressed with Bannister. We played piss poor under Berube too and I like him as a coach. So I am not sure we can expect a big shift with someone else. I certainly wouldn’t rule it out. But we have had two coaches this season and the evidence is that we’re weren’t good under either.

 

[Majorityof1]

And if our goaltending isnt playing exceptional like they have been, the boost in play you are extrapolating from the game last night (which was a pinnacle for the season and not likely sustainable with this team as I am not sure we have even cobbled together any significant stretch that resembles last night), we are probably in a similar position.

While an agree that I am not impressed with Bannister. We played piss poor under Berube too and I like him as a coach. So I am not sure we can expect a big shift with someone else. I certainly wouldn’t rule it out. But we have had two coaches this season and the evidence is that we’re weren’t good under either.

I think a benefit of Bannister is to develop Neighbours, Bolduc, Dean, Kessel, and potentially Dvorsky, Snuggy, Lindstein and Stenburg over the next couple of years. Those players developing well is vastly more important than the team playing well the next couple years. Kyrou has also done well under Bannister. Him taking another step would be a huge boon as well.

 

[Celtic Note]

I think a benefit of Bannister is to develop Neighbours, Bolduc, Dean, Kessel, and potentially Dvorsky, Snuggy, Lindstein and Stenburg over the next couple of years. Those players developing well is vastly more important than the team playing well the next couple years. Kyrou has also done well under Bannister. Him taking another step would be a huge boon as well.

He may be fine developing players. I am ok giving him another year if a better developer isn’t out there. If you can find a great all around coach then that would be fantastic. I am not however interested in a “I am here to win coach” for next year and possibly the one after. But that is highly dependent on the speed of progression of our young guys.

 

[stl76]

But they really arnt meaningful at all. this season has been over for months. they are not a serious playoff contending team.

Have you ever been in a “meaningful” game in a contact sport?

 

[GoldenSeal]

This team is a mess.

 

[Xerloris]

Have you ever been in a “meaningful” game in a contact sport?

Come on, you know he's never been in one.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

They're visually pretty good, though.

 

[PocketNines]

Last night's game is the reason I think Bannister isn't the coach for us. I have been completely unimpressed with our 5v5 play for the majority of the year and the underlying metrics are legit worst in the league under Bannister prior to last night's game. I've been pulling my hair out all season b/c yes, our roster has flaws, and yes, we probably aren't competing for a Cup this year or next. But good God man, our roster has enough talent that it shouldn't be THIS awful. Worse then Chicago, San Jose, Columbus, Anaheim, and Montreal? No shot.

So last night happens. We played lights out. I mean seriously, that was probably the best I've seen us play all season. Our forecheck was amazing. We were crashing the net hard. We were taking it to Nashville for a lot of the game. Did we make mistakes? Yea. Did we play great for all 60 minutes? Nope. But on balance, we were BY FAR the better team. Binnington was uncharacteristically shaky and we lost. Sucks, but THIS is the performance I've thought this team capable of for most of the season, and it didn't happen until we were well and truly with our backs against the wall.

Had we played like this for even 50% of the season, with our goaltending? We're easily a playoff team. I know that's tough for team tank to hear, but it's the truth. This team has talent. It -should- be in the mix. But for whatever reason, we haven't been able to really find a system and flow that allows us to put continous pressure on the other team. It's been driving me crazy all season and last night was the (Thankfully) ok so I'm not crazy this is just bullshit moment for me.

This is about the character of the skaters. It's about the effort they are willing to accept from themselves. They can get it up for big games, like literally any group of players can. It's nowhere near good enough. Champion teams need teams like the Blues to exist so they can play at a superior level as a culture. They need to be able to say, "See that? That's average. That group of guys accepts inconsistency. Average doesn't win championships. We are better than that, because as people it's who we want to be in the world."

If the group of Blues players didn't accept inconsistency, there wouldn't be inconsistency. But, the Blues just have way too many average guys. A coach can help but they can't make a person want to be something inside of themselves. That has to come from player-chosen excellence, and the Blues do not have those kind of players. You'd need a GM who understands life better, but he does not. He is instead wired into the "competitiveness" of the tiniest little turd ever to wear a Blues uniform on defense. Miss another net from 20 feet you little squirt bum ... our two must-shelter offensive PP specialists couldn't score into an open net ...

 

[GoldenSeal]

This is about the character of the skaters. It's about the effort they are willing to accept from themselves. They can get it up for big games, like literally any group of players can. It's nowhere near good enough. Champion teams need teams like the Blues to exist so they can play at a superior level as a culture. They need to be able to say, "See that? That's average. That group of guys accepts inconsistency. Average doesn't win championships. We are better than that, because as people it's who we want to be in the world."

If the group of Blues players didn't accept inconsistency, there wouldn't be inconsistency. But, the Blues just have way too many average guys. A coach can help but they can't make a person want to be something inside of themselves. That has to come from player-chosen excellence, and the Blues do not have those kind of players. You'd need a GM who understands life better, but he does not. He is instead wired into the "competitiveness" of the tiniest little turd ever to wear a Blues uniform on defense. Miss another net from 20 feet you little squirt bum ... our two must-shelter offensive PP specialists couldn't score into an open net ...

In general, Coaches create, instill and reinforce the culture in the locker room. They deem what is acceptable and not and handle situations accordingly.

The room reads more like a bunch of individuals than as a cohesive unit built on discipline, drive and heart. We've seen this before so many with this franchise that its become ridiculous. We got passengers, we got a few drivers and we got folks that don't put in consistent effort. It's the coaches job to hone that.

When they team comes out determined, the stats properly reflect the team. We know what these guys are capable of and so do they. It's absolutely Drew and the other coaches fault for not setting proper boundaries and demand effort. It shouldn't matter who someone is or how much money they make, if they're not stepping up, sit them down and if they like sitting, let them ride pine til the cows come home, that affects the player more than anything else. If you can't win, set an example and send a message.

No one's going to give full effort in a room that allows disrespect. You got teams like the Habs who absolutely don't have the skill and firepower but they show up with heart and drive. That's the baseline of what a team should be and how they should operate and we can't even get that.

 

[PocketNines]

In general, Coaches create, instill and reinforce the culture in the locker room. They deem what is acceptable and not and handle situations accordingly.

The room reads more like a bunch of individuals than as a cohesive unit built on discipline, drive and heart. We've seen this before so many with this franchise that its become ridiculous. We got passengers, we got a few drivers and we got folks that don't put in consistent effort. It's the coaches job to hone that.

When they team comes out determined, the stats properly reflect the team. We know what these guys are capable of and so do they. It's absolutely Drew and the other coaches fault for not setting proper boundaries and demand effort. It shouldn't matter who someone is or how much money they make, if they're not stepping up, sit them down and if they like sitting, let them ride pine til the cows come home, that affects the player more than anything else. If you can't win, set an example and send a message.

No one's going to give full effort in a room that allows disrespect. You got teams like the Habs who absolutely don't have the skill and firepower but they show up with heart and drive. That's the baseline of what a team should be and how they should operate and we can't even get that.

Sure, coaches have an impact but if a guy is a passenger that is on him first and foremost. To look at a team with passengers and say "this is on the coach" is exactly how coach killers get away with being coach killers. Coach killers love responses like yours, they love the deflection of responsibility. It's not their fault it's the system