Blues Discussion Thread 2018-2019 - Part V

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Halak Ness Monster

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Nov 11, 2010
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Binny @ FLA
Allen @ TBL
Binny vs NSH
Allen @ NSH

Binny vs NJD
Binny @ ARI
split the back to back on the road with COL and MIN.

Including Saturday's game, that's 6 starts out of 9 in a 16 day window for Binny. That's as heavy of a workload as I'm comfortable with for a young goalie. I'm comfortable treating the TBL game as an 'expected loss, but hoping for some luck' and would rather see Allen in net than over-working Binny in a game I think we are going to get shelled.

I 100% agree.

Allen has been solid on the road this year so hopefully he can snag us at least 1 point from the TB and NSH road games. We haven't won in Nashville in like 12 games(or something like this, maybe 11 of 12). I'm not hoping for much there. Maybe we can catch TB napping on a Western Conference matchup. The travel won't be bad for that game, too.
 

Majorityof1

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Mar 6, 2014
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Binny @ FLA
Allen @ TBL
Binny vs NSH
Allen @ NSH

Binny vs NJD
Binny @ ARI
split the back to back on the road with COL and MIN.

Including Saturday's game, that's 6 starts out of 9 in a 16 day window for Binny. That's as heavy of a workload as I'm comfortable with for a young goalie. I'm comfortable treating the TBL game as an 'expected loss, but hoping for some luck' and would rather see Allen in net than over-working Binny in a game I think we are going to get shelled. I also don't want Allen playing his 1st game since 1/17/19 against Nashville on National TV. In case he needs a 'shake off the rust' outing, I'd rather that happen against Tampa. Nashville doesn't scare me nearly as much as Tampa does and I think we have a batter chance of taking that game.

Do you think we can realistically get Binny the 28 games total we need to keep him an RFA? Its only one of his games played that doesn't qualify, correct? So he needs 18 more games, out of 32, with 8 sets of back-to-back. Let's say we split all the remaining back-to-backs. Binnington needs 10 of of the 16 remaining games? Seems possible to me, but I am afraid they will go back to Allen for multiple games at some point if he starts playing ok. Which stinks, because Allen isn't the answer and having him play doesn't help us in the long-run. Getting Binnington to RFA would help lower his contract for us. If he carries a .920+ over 20-25 starts, I think he'd get an offers from someone else as a back-up in UFA.
 

CaliforniaBlues310

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Binny @ FLA
Allen @ TBL
Binny vs NSH
Allen @ NSH

Binny vs NJD
Binny @ ARI
split the back to back on the road with COL and MIN.

Including Saturday's game, that's 6 starts out of 9 in a 16 day window for Binny. That's as heavy of a workload as I'm comfortable with for a young goalie. I'm comfortable treating the TBL game as an 'expected loss, but hoping for some luck' and would rather see Allen in net than over-working Binny in a game I think we are going to get shelled. I also don't want Allen playing his 1st game since 1/17/19 against Nashville on National TV. In case he needs a 'shake off the rust' outing, I'd rather that happen against Tampa. Nashville doesn't scare me nearly as much as Tampa does and I think we have a batter chance of taking that game.

I absolutely agree with this. Binny has won the last two games, and wasn’t challenged much in either, so might as well play him tomorrow in Florida. I think Allen is a good play against Tampa too. We tend to play our best games against the best teams, and that’s a recipe for us to actually play hard for Jake.
 

SneakerPimp82

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Wait what? Lecavalier was absolutely not declining in 2004. And Martin St. Louis wasn’t either. He had 94 points that season.

I don’t really agree with any of your examples. All the recent Cup winners had a better player (i.e. franchise guy) that was better than the current Blues best player. For teams like Vegas and Nashville, that’s probably why they haven’t won yet.

So I agree with everyone else pretty much. I also think Tarasenko’s playmaking and ability to “elevate his teammates” is overrated. He really doesn’t, aside from Lehtera. Stastny didn’t look very good with him. It actually hasn’t been easy to find guys he really clicks with.

Replying to the bolded, Tarasenko tends to create chances and bury them regardless of who he plays with. I don't think the teammates he was asked to elevate really had much to elevate in the first place. Has Stastny set the world on fire without Tarasenko or the Blues? Clearly Lehtera hasn't. Schwartz is who he is, oft-injured, can produce, but goes into ridiculous slumps. Schenn lit the world on fire last year but has been unable to replicate it this season. Which other quality players(with room to elevate) that have played with Tarasenko went on to be "elevated" or play better when not with Tarasenko? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I could be wrong. I think it goes back to your Vegas and Nashville comment in this same quoted post, the opposition shuts down Tarasenko and dares the other Blues players to beat them, and obviously it's worked because no other Blues forward has been able to step up and score. You can only elevate 3rd and 4th line players miscast as 3rd and 2nd liners so much before opponents neutralize your catalyst, i.e. Tarasenko. O'Reilly really is the only other player on the roster who's on par with Tarasenko as far as scoring(this season at least). Perron is having a great season by any measure, Tarasenko has basically the same numbers(granted in 4 more games) but is having a very down year by all accounts. The quality in the Blues' depth is better, but it's just not on par with the elites of the league and historically hasn't been.

TL;DR The Blues depth isn't and hasn't been good enough historically to call Tarasenko's ability to elevate teammates overrated.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Do you think we can realistically get Binny the 28 games total we need to keep him an RFA? Its only one of his games played that doesn't qualify, correct? So he needs 18 more games, out of 32, with 8 sets of back-to-back. Let's say we split all the remaining back-to-backs. Binnington needs 10 of of the 16 remaining games? Seems possible to me, but I am afraid they will go back to Allen for multiple games at some point if he starts playing ok. Which stinks, because Allen isn't the answer and having him play doesn't help us in the long-run. Getting Binnington to RFA would help lower his contract for us. If he carries a .920+ over 20-25 starts, I think he'd get an offers from someone else as a back-up in UFA.

I'm not the least bit concerned about him hitting UFA. Whether he hits the GP threshold or not, the Blues will sign him to a very affordable contract if we think he is an NHL caliber goalie moving forward. I've said it before in other threads, but I think people are dramatically overestimating the offers he will have if his resume is 25ish NHL starts, no playoff experience and losing the job to Allen at any point down the stretch. Andrew Hammond got 3 years a $1.35 mil AAV as a pending UFA after his miracle run.

The goaltending UFA market is comically over-saturated with backup or 1B options. Teams will not be knocking down the door of a 26 year old with fewer than 30 NHL games of experience. The KHL, AHL and other pro leagues are littered with guys who looked great for a couple months in the NHL and then fizzled (see Andrew Hammond). The security of a 1 way contract worth $2.5-3.5 mil (depending on whether it is 2 or 3 years) will be enough for him to sign with the Blues weeks before hitting free agency and taking the risk that the music stops and he doesn't have a 1 way contract during the summer. His career earnings by the end of the year will still be significantly under $1 mil. A 2 year, 1 way deal for $1.25 AAV would be a life changing amount of money for him and there is zero guarantee he gets such a contract in July as a UFA. He he gives the job back to Allen, his best case scenario in UFA would be slightly more money than that, with the chance that he gets a 2 way deal with a high AHL salary (but still drastically less than a 1 way contract would pay him in the AHL).

With all that said, I think he'll play the required games. If he doesn't, it means that his play drops off fairly substantially. Craig Berube is coaching to try and get a permanent head coaching job (either here or to interview elsewhere). The team is in a playoff hunt and ownership would absolutely prefer to make the playoffs. Binny has clearly earned Berube's trust and will continue getting the large majority of starts until he starts playing poorly.

Edit: recent UFA signing comparables

Copley: 3 years, $1.1 mil AAV
Koskinen: 3 years, $4.5 mil AAV
DeSmith: 3 years, $1.25 mil AAV

Desmith had a .924 through 24 GP this year when he signed his deal after posting a .921 through 14 games last year. Probably the best comparable, albiet with a slightly larger sample size than we're talking about. Copley has worse numbers through this year, although most people who watch the Caps recognize that they have been a dumpster fire defensively for the last month or so. He had a .916 before his last 3 starts (which was the stretch of games where the Caps allowed 4+ goals in 5 of 6 games, for a total of 34 goals against in 6 games. He and Holtby both put up atrocious numbers in that stretch, which tells me it was mostly defense. The huge hit in SV% demonstrates how a couple bad nights can tank SV% when the sample size is as small as he and Binny have right now.

Koskinen is the obvious outlier, but he is also the least comparable in terms of situation. He isn't a mid-20s rookie who toiled in the AHL. He's 30, won 2 championships in the KHL before coming over to North America and won KHL goalie of the year a few years ago. His NHL resume is limited, but his pro career is drastically more notable than Binny, Copley or DeSmith. I think it was a brutal contract by the Oilers, but he absolutely has a much better resume than the other goalies we're talking about.
 
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Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Replying to the bolded, Tarasenko tends to create chances and bury them regardless of who he plays with. I don't think the teammates he was asked to elevate really had much to elevate in the first place. Has Stastny set the world on fire without Tarasenko or the Blues? Clearly Lehtera hasn't. Schwartz is who he is, oft-injured, can produce, but goes into ridiculous slumps. Schenn lit the world on fire last year but has been unable to replicate it this season. Which other quality players(with room to elevate) that have played with Tarasenko went on to be "elevated" or play better when not with Tarasenko? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I could be wrong. I think it goes back to your Vegas and Nashville comment in this same quoted post, the opposition shuts down Tarasenko and dares the other Blues players to beat them, and obviously it's worked because no other Blues forward has been able to step up and score. You can only elevate 3rd and 4th line players miscast as 3rd and 2nd liners so much before opponents neutralize your catalyst, i.e. Tarasenko. O'Reilly really is the only other player on the roster who's on par with Tarasenko as far as scoring(this season at least). Perron is having a great season by any measure, Tarasenko has basically the same numbers(granted in 4 more games) but is having a very down year by all accounts. The quality in the Blues' depth is better, but it's just not on par with the elites of the league and historically hasn't been.

TL;DR The Blues depth isn't and hasn't been good enough historically to call Tarasenko's ability to elevate teammates overrated.

Stastny has 20 points in 24 games with the Knights this year, which is a 68 point pace. He had 13 points in 19 games with the Jets after the deadline. It's laughable to describe that as a "3rd or 4th line player miscast as a 3rd or 2nd liner"

Calling any of Stasnty, Schwartz, or Schenn 3rd or 4th liners isn't even remotely based in reality.
 

SneakerPimp82

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Saint Louis, MO
Stastny has 20 points in 24 games with the Knights this year, which is a 68 point pace. He had 13 points in 19 games with the Jets after the deadline. It's laughable to describe that as a "3rd or 4th line player miscast as a 3rd or 2nd liner"

Calling any of Stasnty, Schwartz, or Schenn 3rd or 4th liners isn't even remotely based in reality.

Where did I call them 3rd or 4th liners? Sorry, I'll spell it out for you: the Blues forward corps(not including the aforementioned and Steen) while Tarasenko's been on the Blues roster has been comprised of various 3rd or 4th liners miscast as 2nd and 3rd liners, i.e. an issue of depth, like we've been discussing throughout. Stastny's done well so far in Vegas, but I wager that by year's end he'll have settled into the production he had on the Blues, somewhere around 45 points, basically a solid 2nd line/great 3rd line option, i.e. Tyler Bozak. Not miscast, sure, but not enough of a difference maker if you don't have the quality depth that good playoff teams require. So while the pace of 68 is nice, if you're oft-injured and end up scoring ~45 like Stastny's been doing for 5 years now, it's hard to get excited about that.
 

Brockon

Cautiously optimistic realist when caffeinated.
Aug 20, 2017
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It’s been reported Fabbri is finally looking really good again in practice. I would not be surprised if he’s in the lineup against Florida.

Him and Thomas can be X factors for us down the stretch. I’d like for us to trade Maroon, so Fabbri has the chance to seal that 3LW spot next to Bozak and Steen.

If we don’t make any top 9 moves, I’d like to see us role this lineup down the stretch

Schenn-O’Reilly-Perron
Schwartz-Thomas-Tarasenko
Fabbri-Bozak-Steen
Sanford-Barbashev-Sundqvist

I'd love to see this line up most nights down the stretch

But, barring a Maroon trade, he draws into 20+ of our next 32 bumping a combination of Fabbri/Sanford/Sundqvist, as I can't see him being sat even half of the games we have remaining...
 

Brockon

Cautiously optimistic realist when caffeinated.
Aug 20, 2017
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Assuming Binnington is given enough starts and remains an RFA, I'll be surprised to see a qualifying offer made to him exceeding 2 years and a 1.5 AAV. I feel a 1 way offer for 1.1-1.4 mil AAV over 2-3 years would be a very compelling offer for Binnington - if he ends up running the crease as a starter during that span I'd expect the next contract to be a 3-5 year deal for 4-4.5 AAV.

Typically, RFA backups are barely given a raise year over year beyond the 10% minimum and goalies in general tend to be fairly cheap until they have carried a starter load over a few years - see Gibson (3x2.3m for his first starter gig), Andersen (2x1.15 for 1 backup and 1 starting season as RFA), Grubauer got 2x750k then 1x1.5 as a RFA with significant history before his current 3x3.33m contract as a 1B goalie.

I think Copley's contract is a good comparable for Binnington. If they just copied that, I would be pleased. The guy gets 3.3M guaranteed and a chance to become an NHL starter. The Blues commit to him for 3 years, but its a contract they could bury if necessary.

I agree, that Binny's agent will definitely use Copley as a comparable. If Binnington carries us down the stretch, Copley's deal becomes the floor for Doug's negotiations.

Binnington has 163 AHL games and 11 NHL games to date. 174 Pro games.
Copley has 145 AHL games and 21 NHL games to date. 166 Pro games.

Pulling up their games played, I'll double down on my earlier prediction of 2-3 year, 1 way deal in the 1.1-1.4 AAV range; I doubt Binny gets over 2 years at 1.5 AAV. Said deal would mark the beginning of the end of Allen's tenure in St Louis, as I suspect he'd be moved in the summer of 2020 or before the deadline of the 2020-21 season.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Where did I call them 3rd or 4th liners? Sorry, I'll spell it out for you: the Blues forward corps(not including the aforementioned and Steen) while Tarasenko's been on the Blues roster has been comprised of various 3rd or 4th liners miscast as 2nd and 3rd liners, i.e. an issue of depth, like we've been discussing throughout. Stastny's done well so far in Vegas, but I wager that by year's end he'll have settled into the production he had on the Blues, somewhere around 45 points, basically a solid 2nd line/great 3rd line option, i.e. Tyler Bozak. Not miscast, sure, but not enough of a difference maker if you don't have the quality depth that good playoff teams require. So while the pace of 68 is nice, if you're oft-injured and end up scoring ~45 like Stastny's been doing for 5 years now, it's hard to get excited about that.

You could re-read your post that I quoted, but here is the direct quote:

"You can only elevate 3rd and 4th line players miscast as 3rd and 2nd liners so much before opponents neutralize your catalyst, i.e. Tarasenko." That came directly after you talked about Stastny, Lehtera, Schwartz, and Schenn as the players he has played with who didn't have much to elevate. I don't know how to read your post as a whole and not assume that the players you talked about are the players who you meant to talk about.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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I agree, that Binny's agent will definitely use Copley as a comparable. If Binnington carries us down the stretch, Copley's deal becomes the floor for Doug's negotiations.

Binnington has 163 AHL games and 11 NHL games to date. 174 Pro games.
Copley has 145 AHL games and 21 NHL games to date. 166 Pro games.

Pulling up their games played, I'll double down on my earlier prediction of 2-3 year, 1 way deal in the 1.1-1.4 AAV range; I doubt Binny gets over 2 years at 1.5 AAV. Said deal would mark the beginning of the end of Allen's tenure in St Louis, as I suspect he'd be moved in the summer of 2020 or before the deadline of the 2020-21 season.

That's exactly the type of deal I'm expecting regardless of whether he is an RFA or UFA. I could see an AAV north of $1.5 if he wins us a playoff round. However, that means he hits the starts required for us to keep him as an RFA, so the leverage gained by bolstering his resume also reduces his leverage regarding free agent status.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Just to clarify, playoff starts by Binnington tally into the RFA required games played?

Yup.

The definitions section of the CBA defines "NHL Games" as regular season and playoff games. The language of Article 10.1(c) requires a goaltender to play fewer than "28 NHL Games" in order to become a UFA instead of an RFA. There is just no way to read the CBA to exclude playoff games from that calculation. 10.1(c) even weirdly capitalizes the word "Games" mid-sentence just to further drive home the point that the authors didn't intend for NHL games in that context to have a different definition than the NHL Games form the definitions section.

That's one of the reasons I'm not concerned. If he doesn't get the games required to keep him an RFA, it means we either missed the playoffs or Jake Allen won his job back in route to the playoffs and then started over him during the playoffs. Either hurts his resume and makes it less likely that some team is willing to offer him a contract worth rejecting a life-changing guaranteed amount money from the Blues. The CBA is directly designed to limit the leverage of any player under the age of 26 that has had any modicum of success.
 
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