Post-Game Talk: Blue Jackets @ Rangers | 1/19/20

[JHS]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that your pre-conceived notions of him are influencing your opinions today.

I'm not saying Quinn has been perfect, but 90% of this teams problems comes from the quality and inexperience of the lineup. You see a lack of structure. I see a forward group that has 2 solid defensive players among 13. 4 of those 11 who aren't solid defensively are still learning and might be solid defensively in the future. I see a group of D with 2 rookies, one young player who is lacking in the D zone, and 1 older player who we all know has had the game pass him by. People do this all the time though... mistake poor quality play for poor coaching.

What Quinn was brought here to do, in the near-term, was develop young players. Not win hockey games, as you seem to think. As has been pointed out, the majority of our young players who have gotten a lot of games in the NHL taken significant steps forward after being coached by him. Not unbrokenly, because that's not how development works, but steps forward. Kids with steps forward: Chytil, Lemieux, Georgiev, Fox, Lindgren, DeAngelo. Young players who regressed: Andersson. Young players who took two steps forward and two steps back: Buchnevich. Young players who haven't progressed or regressed: Howden, Hajek. Players who haven't had enough time or are still too young to judge: Gettinger.

If this was a W/L record, he'd be 6W-1L-4T, with plenty of time for those 4 ties to become wins (or losses).

Is he the right guy for when this team is competitive? I don't know the answer to that. It's going to take us having a competitive roster for me to start to form an opinion. For what he's supposed to be doing right now, he's doing a good job.

Here's the thing- if this is not about winning games than I'm sorry- what's the point? This idea that winning and developing are somehow mutually exclusive is absurd and even more crazy is this idea that an established NHL coach could not be developing players and winning games, plus developing players under a winning system is my problem. Quinn's system is not a winning system. It would not be a winning system if he had a lineup of 20 veterans playing each night. There is my issue right there. He's got a built in excuse because these guys are young and a lot of posters on here are just giving him a blanket pass because they see statistical improvements. I'm asking for more than that from an NHL coach. By my view, Quinn is being evaluated far too positively because these guys are developing in a system that promotes offense over all other areas of the game, seems to equate offensive production with "improvement" and because the offensive production has increased we should just overlook all the other attributes of the coaching. I just don't see the game this way.

Now recently the team has shown moments of improved defensive systems. Maybe they are on a better track but this is now a year plus of pretty much the same group of rookies and an additional 2 NHL level players. We should be seeing a clear improvement!

 

[JHS]

A lot of this is simply not true. The D has been improving, the lines have stablized, the young players are getting better. Most people bought into a rebuild, but way too many are proving not to have the patience. There is a lot of extreme youth in this line-up. It's NHL fact over the years thaat D takes longer than forwards to develop. We're actually lucky to have a couple guy like Fox and Lindgren showing so much already. And we're going to have MORE youg D coming. Yes this team needs to fill in more. That's on the GM and that will be happening. There's still some of the old guard that needs to go first. It's a process. And it doesn't happen overnight. I'm NOT saying there haven't been mistakes, but that's part of the rebuild process. Not everything goes according to plan. Patience. Every loss isn't the end of the world.

Ok so even if I agree with the D improving recently( which I do) Why is it acceptable to just overlook the fact that other proven NHL coaches are now out there and would do wonders with this roster. If we want to agree that this team may have finally taken that step towards "development" than why not pull the trigger and get a true NHL established coach in here now?

See this is the issue with rebuilds-- the organization has to get so much right when it goes this direction of getting a complete overhauled roster plus an inexperienced coach to lead them. Now there is pressure on the GM/management to time the firing of Quinn( which is inevitable) so as to not lose out on the next great coach, plus time that with the development of the players so as to make sure this roster is already developed when you make that move towards the next coach. Look at every other team that's done this same rebuild in recent past, Edmonton, Florida, Toronto, to name a few. They all went the same route. take it apart, bring in a no name coach, develop the young talent, then can the no name coach and bring in an established NHL guy. The Rangers will follow this same method and I just think this is far too difficult to get all these pieces timed out correctly. Bring in the established NHL guy now(end of this season) and cut off all the drama that will come next year or the year after when maybe there are no candidates out there like their are now.

 

[Tawnos]

Here's the thing- if this is not about winning games than I'm sorry- what's the point? This idea that winning and developing are somehow mutually exclusive is absurd and even more crazy is this idea that an established NHL coach could not be developing players and winning games, plus developing players under a winning system is my problem. Quinn's system is not a winning system. It would not be a winning system if he had a lineup of 20 veterans playing each night. There is my issue right there. He's got a built in excuse because these guys are young and a lot of posters on here are just giving him a blanket pass because they see statistical improvements. I'm asking for more than that from an NHL coach. By my view, Quinn is being evaluated far too positively because these guys are developing in a system that promotes offense over all other areas of the game, seems to equate offensive production with "improvement" and because the offensive production has increased we should just overlook all the other attributes of the coaching. I just don't see the game this way.

Now recently the team has shown moments of improved defensive systems. Maybe they are on a better track but this is now a year plus of pretty much the same group of rookies and an additional 2 NHL level players. We should be seeing a clear improvement!

What I mean by that it that it's about winning games in the future. Winning or losing today doesn't matter. I'll put it another way. The only thing that matters about this season is where these players are at the beginning of NEXT year.

The idea that you build a winning team by developing young players in a winning environment is negated by literally every team that has rebuilt, lost a ton, and become contenders. So, 95% of all contenders went through these periods of not being very good. This is a transition year. It was set up to be that from the beginning of the year. Of course, the coach is going to push his guys to try to win and make the playoffs, but it's not a failure if they don't.

And I don't agree that people are overlooking other elements of players games. Chytil, for example, still isn't producing much... but people see him as having taken major strides because of the way he's playing outside of that. Lemieux, too, doesn't produce a ton... but he affects the game when he plays. Most of the time anyway... last night not so much. Lindgren and Fox have both taken major strides in terms of playing NHL defense. DeAngelo hasn't, sure... but I don't think the expectation with him has ever been to be really good away from the puck. Nobody is "giving Quinn a pass"... it's the opposite. We're giving him credit for the improvements we've seen.

We are seeing a clear improvement. It's possible that your standards for what that looks like are just too high. And it is NOT a year plus of the same group of young players. There are 10 skaters under 23 who have played for the Rangers in the 48 games this year. Of those 10, only 4 played significant time for the Rangers last year (Chytil, Howden, DeAngelo, Andersson). It's not the same group of rookies. Lindgren spent all of last year in Hartford. Fox was in another organization. Kakko hadn't been drafted yet. Lemieux was only acquired at the deadline. Hajek and Gettinger are receiving more time in Hartford.

 

[Tawnos]

Ok so even if I agree with the D improving recently( which I do) Why is it acceptable to just overlook the fact that other proven NHL coaches are now out there and would do wonders with this roster. If we want to agree that this team may have finally taken that step towards "development" than why not pull the trigger and get a true NHL established coach in here now?

See this is the issue with rebuilds-- the organization has to get so much right when it goes this direction of getting a complete overhauled roster plus an inexperienced coach to lead them. Now there is pressure on the GM/management to time the firing of Quinn( which is inevitable) so as to not lose out on the next great coach, plus time that with the development of the players so as to make sure this roster is already developed when you make that move towards the next coach. Look at every other team that's done this same rebuild in recent past, Edmonton, Florida, Toronto, to name a few. They all went the same route. take it apart, bring in a no name coach, develop the young talent, then can the no name coach and bring in an established NHL guy. The Rangers will follow this same method and I just think this is far too difficult to get all these pieces timed out correctly. Bring in the established NHL guy now(end of this season) and cut off all the drama that will come next year or the year after when maybe there are no candidates out there like their are now.

I don't overlook the bolded, I completely 100% disagree with it.

 

[Captain Lindy]

I guess all the good vibes from pimpsmacking the Islanders are dead now?

They played well collectively and lost. The biggest issue I have with this team is the insistence of running the useless dead weight out there night in and night out.

Buch really needs to sit for at least a game.

Seeing him out on the PP night after night and on the top line makes my head hurt literally.

 

[mas0764]

Not sure why people are so upset with us losing.

Losing our way into another top 5 or even top 3 pick would be the best possible thing for this franchise.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

In the context of what I said, sure all teams lose games like this...that's obvious but what I was eluding too and I thought I made it clear, is that this year where this team of ours is very inconsistent, is so inexperienced and the closing out of games suspect as indicated by tonight, next year the Rangers will likely be a much more improved team that in all likelihood wouldn't have lost this game and at worst would have figured out a way to have at very worst gotten a point out of it by getting into OT instead of getting no points.

Make sense? If not, not sure what else I can tell ya.

I looked back. There's no context there. You just said a common platitude that is false and I corrected it bc I see that same platitude every year regardless of how good the team is. There is a very significant difference between "We win this game and more games like it with more experience" vs "A good team NEVER loses a game LIKE this". If you meant the former then you made a mistake because you said something different with a different meaning

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Not sure why people are so upset with us losing.

Losing our way into another top 5 or even top 3 pick would be the best possible thing for this franchise.

Have you seen some of the teams below us? We’re not sniffing a top 5 pick unless we win the lottery again

 

[mas0764]

Have you seen some of the teams below us? We’re not sniffing a top 5 pick unless we win the lottery again

True, we could get to 6th or 7th slot after the trade deadline though.

And once you are there, hey, anything can happen. Your odds are just about as good as anyone's outside the top 3.

If New Jersey can have lightning strike twice than so can we, dammit.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Can't tell anymore who's being serious and who's trolling with the overreactions. I fell asleep so I can't say anything about this game.

I'm in camp rebuild, so yay to the loss ...

 

[TominNC]

I never say Yay to the loss, but they also don't ruin my evening. I expect crap to happen with a young team. But I enjoy watching this group even with their sometimes negative results. I didn't expect better this season.

I also don't see the need to replace Quinn. All those other big name coaches had to start somewhere. It's too early to tell whether he's the guy when you have a winning quality team.

 

[JHS]

So many defeatists on this board. Just lose for the sake of losing, don’t hold the coach accountable for anything, GM gets passes too because well why not?

I totally understand losing is part of a rebuild but did people just forget that he Rangers signed Panarian and Trouba both designed to accelerate the rebuild? When does this loser mentality and just accept the rebuild idea go away? I think some of you will still be saying the team is rebuilding 5 years from now and just waiting for the magical day when it all comes together. That day might never come— plenty of organizations are wishing for that day too. Some for over 5 years now. Why can’t the organization take steps to accelerate the rebuild like hiring and NHL proven coach. It’s really not a hard concept. Better coaching equals more wins.

 

[JHS]

I don't overlook the bolded, I completely 100% disagree with it.

Wait- you mean Laviolette, Babcock and Gallant are not more proven NHL coaches than David Quinn?? If you don’t think these coaches would get the same if not more results out of this current roster than you really have 0 faith this current roster is capable at all. That’s the only way I even could possibly see your line of thinking making sense— but I know that’s not true because you just went on about how this roster has improved. So you can’t have it both ways.

 

[Tawnos]

Wait- you mean Laviolette, Babcock and Gallant are not more proven NHL coaches than David Quinn?? If you don’t think these coaches would get the same if not more results out of this current roster than you really have 0 faith this current roster is capable at all. That’s the only way I even could possibly see your line of thinking making sense— but I know that’s not true because you just went on about how this roster has improved. So you can’t have it both ways.

They are more proven than Quinn, but I don't think they'd be able to get more out of the roster. Being proven doesn't automatically mean that. All three of those guys were just fired for not getting as much as they could out of their rosters. Why would I automatically assume they could get more out of ours? They'd likely get the same amount out of our roster.

And guess what? I don't have faith that this roster is capable of more right now. They need more improvement. This is not a playoff caliber team at the moment. We need more defensively capable forwards... as I mentioned, we have players who might grow into that. We need better defenders on the back end too. Again, players growing into that. Just because I think they've improved doesn't mean I think they're good. They've made some strong strides, but they're coming from a place where they were the 6th worst team in points, 10th worst in GA, and dead last in ROW. They're still bottom 10 in GA for the whole season, but if the last few weeks is any indication (they're 16th worst in January), we should hopefully start to see them climb those ranks a little.

Re: your other post. Bringing in Trouba and Panarin was never designed to make the team competitive this year. Both were long-term moves. They wanted to accelerate the rebuild, not finish it.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Re: your other post. Bringing in Trouba and Panarin was never designed to make the team competitive this year. Both were long-term moves. They wanted to accelerate the rebuild, not finish it.

agree

this was recognizing nobody in free agency for 2020 was in Panerin’s league while Trouba forced the Jets hand.

Supposed to build around these two.

 

[TominNC]

So many defeatists on this board. Just lose for the sake of losing, don’t hold the coach accountable for anything, GM gets passes too because well why not?

I totally understand losing is part of a rebuild but did people just forget that he Rangers signed Panarian and Trouba both designed to accelerate the rebuild? When does this loser mentality and just accept the rebuild idea go away? I think some of you will still be saying the team is rebuilding 5 years from now and just waiting for the magical day when it all comes together. That day might never come— plenty of organizations are wishing for that day too. Some for over 5 years now. Why can’t the organization take steps to accelerate the rebuild like hiring and NHL proven coach. It’s really not a hard concept. Better coaching equals more wins.

Year two of the rebuild and we're supposed to be done? Accelerating the rebuild means we're not Devils or Wings awful. This is a win one, lose one, surprise a good team, lose a tough one, middle of the pack team. That is very accelerated for this early in the process. Expecting more is an unrealistic, no patience for a rebuild point of view.

 

[cwede]

Tense close game, great result. This needs to be another lottery season. As of yesterday morning's standings, Canes and Leafs were both outide the WC . These NYR arent going to surpass them and 3 or 4 other teams. And thats ok. Contention comes for real in '21-22

 

[bl02]

I bet no other team in the league has lost two games with pretty much a minute or less left in today’s NHL where teams automatically play for overtime late in a game. Especially conference games!!!
We did it twice already. Once to a 4th liner and both games at home!

 

[Thirty One]

I bet no other team in the league has lost two games with pretty much a minute or less left in today’s NHL where teams automatically play for overtime late in a game. Especially conference games!!!
We did it twice already. Once to a 4th liner and both games at home!

How much would you like to bet?

 

[bl02]

How much would you like to bet?

Well read a tweet saying with 30 seconds or less it’s only happened one other time this year. So can’t imagine it’s happened twice or more to any other team. Has it?

 

[Thirty One]

Well read a tweet saying with 30 seconds or less it’s only happened one other time this year. So can’t imagine it’s happened twice or more to any other team. Has it?

Glad I didn't bet.

 

[JHS]

Year two of the rebuild and we're supposed to be done? Accelerating the rebuild means we're not Devils or Wings awful. This is a win one, lose one, surprise a good team, lose a tough one, middle of the pack team. That is very accelerated for this early in the process. Expecting more is an unrealistic, no patience for a rebuild point of view.

I think it’s safe to say that you are content waiting around and being ok with losing. I’m not. It’s really as simple as that— you want to have unlimited patience— cool... I don’t. It’s time for results.

 

[JHS]

They are more proven than Quinn, but I don't think they'd be able to get more out of the roster. Being proven doesn't automatically mean that. All three of those guys were just fired for not getting as much as they could out of their rosters. Why would I automatically assume they could get more out of ours? They'd likely get the same amount out of our roster.

And guess what? I don't have faith that this roster is capable of more right now. They need more improvement. This is not a playoff caliber team at the moment. We need more defensively capable forwards... as I mentioned, we have players who might grow into that. We need better defenders on the back end too. Again, players growing into that. Just because I think they've improved doesn't mean I think they're good. They've made some strong strides, but they're coming from a place where they were the 6th worst team in points, 10th worst in GA, and dead last in ROW. They're still bottom 10 in GA for the whole season, but if the last few weeks is any indication (they're 16th worst in January), we should hopefully start to see them climb those ranks a little.

Re: your other post. Bringing in Trouba and Panarin was never designed to make the team competitive this year. Both were long-term moves. They wanted to accelerate the rebuild, not finish it.

So here’s the problem with your logic. Incremental progress eventually reaches less and less improvement. Meaning because a lot of these guys started with virtually no sense of what they would become it’s now safe to say we’ve scene improvement. How are you measuring improvement? Maybe this will be a career year for Tony? Maybe Brady won’t score more than 5 goals in the future? Maybe Chytil will go back to last year’s production? The point I’m getting at is, the future is uncertain and again- I think people are focusing on offensive production and saying “progress is being made.” This team still loses close games, won’t buckle down in tight spots and ranks almost last in defensive metrics. That’s not progress in my mind.

Listen we can go back and forth in this forever. What’s becoming very clear to me is I just don’t have the same standards and don’t evaluate progress the same way you do. That’s not a problem- it just makes for good conversation.

The coaches who were just fired have all gotten their teams into the Stanley Cup Finals. Their resumes speak for themselves.

 

[Tawnos]

Me: Shows the team has made an improvement over the last few weeks in GA

Others, in response: Offensive production is not a good way to measure progress.

Me: talks about how, even though they aren’t scoring a ton, Chytil and Lemieux have improved. Also talks about how Fox and Lindgren continue to improve defensively.

Others, in response: offensive production isn’t a good way to measure progress.

 

[mike14]

I bet no other team in the league has lost two games with pretty much a minute or less left in today’s NHL where teams automatically play for overtime late in a game. Especially conference games!!!
We did it twice already. Once to a 4th liner and both games at home!

If you expand it out to 2 minutes we lead the league with 3 losses, followed by Nashville and Pittsburg. We're one of 6 teams to lose in the last minute, but the only one of those 6 to win in the last minute...

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