Big 4: 2 Questions

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Reaffirmed? When was he not considered the best/co-best from 2006 until last year, again in the context of the HOH Best player thread?

That thread you keep referencing? It's not some HOH project where the group collectively anointed Crosby the best player in the world in 2016-17. Two people, I think, expressed an opinion on it. Personally I think Erik Karlsson from 2015-16 through 2016-17. Or maybe it's Patrick Kane from 2014-15 through 2016-17? Possibly McDavid from as early as 2015-16 through 2017-18. Carey Price from 2014-15 through 2015-16 was a common thought.

Point is that if Crosby stops rolling 7s like Roy did against the 1998 Oilers, I think you might find that people will be saying his prime years ended when he stopped leading the league in points/points-per-game.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,779
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
I am saying that similar to Howe being considered the best/co-best player from 50/51 to 62/63 according to the HOH thread (I would include 63/64 myself), Crosby has also been considered the best/co-best player from 2006 to last year.

Was Roy considered the best player in hockey (sans Mario and Wayne)? Was any goalie other than Hasek given serious consideration being the best hockey player in the world in the context spelled out by HOH?

That is kind of you.However Howe's 1964-65 and 1965-66 RS performance was slightly better than his 1963-64 season:

Gordie Howe Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

1964-65 Red Wings with a career year from Ullman and reliable goaltending from Crozier finished first. Still finished 3rd in Hart voting behind Hull and Ullman.

1965-66 Red Wings went to the SC finals,losing in 6 despite losing their best defenceman Doug Barkley mid season to a career ending eye injury.

1966-67 thru 1969-70 Howe was still the motor on very weak Detroit teams.
 

daver

Registered User
Apr 4, 2003
25,964
5,833
Visit site
That thread you keep referencing? It's not some HOH project where the group collectively anointed Crosby the best player in the world in 2016-17. Two people, I think, expressed an opinion on it. Personally I think Erik Karlsson from 2015-16 through 2016-17. Or maybe it's Patrick Kane from 2014-15 through 2016-17? Possibly McDavid from as early as 2015-16 through 2017-18. Carey Price from 2014-15 through 2015-16 was a common thought.

We can do the same with Gordie Howe starting in 54/55 can't we?
 

Jim MacDonald

Registered User
Oct 7, 2017
703
180
1a) Does/Do any other player(s) in the history of the sport have a legitimate claim to bump one of Gretzky, Orr, Howe or Lemieux off hockey's Mt. Rushmore? 1b) If so, who?

2) What was the exact achievement that clinched each one's membership in this ultra exclusive group?

1. At this point in time I don't see/can't think of a guy that bumps any of the big four

2. Instead of going with a "tangible" achievement that "punched their ticket" to the mountaintop, I'm gonna go another route, which I know some may like and some may not:
Gretzky/Best Brain & On Ice Intelligence The Game Has Seen
Howe/His Love of the Game of Hockey Was Unmatched, It's Why He Played So Long
Super Mario/Gretzky's Brain in a bigger body that didn't have the health Wayne's body did.
Orr/Revolutionized his position, indirectly, revolutionizing the game
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,294
14,950
That thread you keep referencing? It's not some HOH project where the group collectively anointed Crosby the best player in the world in 2016-17. Two people, I think, expressed an opinion on it. Personally I think Erik Karlsson from 2015-16 through 2016-17. Or maybe it's Patrick Kane from 2014-15 through 2016-17? Possibly McDavid from as early as 2015-16 through 2017-18. Carey Price from 2014-15 through 2015-16 was a common thought.

Point is that if Crosby stops rolling 7s like Roy did against the 1998 Oilers, I think you might find that people will be saying his prime years ended when he stopped leading the league in points/points-per-game.

The way I treat "best player in the world" is who you expect to be a Hart (ross) favorite/who you take to start your team in a vacuum going into the following season.

Id say since 2007 Crosby has been #1 (or co#1) every year in that sense. He's disappointed a bit some years (2015 was first time really) but never enough that he wouldn't be #1 choice come September.

Going into 2015-2016 - he's still #1 because Benns Ross is an anomaly/Carey price is a goalie who needs a 2nd strong season to surpass Crosby.

Going into 2016-17 Crosby is coming off a bad start to season but an insane 2nd half (2nd in Hart) + smythe - and Kanes season is also seen as an anomaly until proven otherwise. So you again take Crosby.

Going into 2017-2018. Crosby has a terrific regular season, world cup + smythe. The difference with McDavid and kane/Benn previous 2 years is that McDavids season is not seen as an anomaly and instead it's expected he improves further next year. Still 2016-17 is very strong for Crosby and so you take him #1 Going into 2017-2018 (or at least co#1).

Obviously this is somewhat subjective but I think my assessments are pretty fair. He hasn't lost #1 yet. He will going into next season (to McDavid) unless he puts up another tremendous playoffs. If he does - you can argue he's still co#1 Going into next year.

Now how much importance/value you assign to that in an all time sense/career value is up to you. This is an intangible metric after all. But I think it's pretty cool and it's one thing I like a lot about Crosbys resume.

I don't think kane or Karlsson did enough for long enough to take the title away from Crosby.
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,294
14,950
I'm waiting for Daver to come to his senses and compare Crosby to Hull, Jagr, and Makarov, instead of completely unrealistic Howe. Looks like I will have to wait a little bit longer.

I think if Crosbys peak years (11-12-13) hadn't been interrupted by injuries and instead if they had been as good as some of the better projections have them - I think Crosby might have today a real case at being a step above those guys and being compared to Howe through age 30. He'd still likely fall behind but I don't think the comparison is out of the question
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,854
4,703
New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
I think if Crosbys peak years (11-12-13) hadn't been interrupted by injuries and instead if they had been as good as some of the better projections have them - I think Crosby might have today a real case at being a step above those guys and being compared to Howe through age 30. He'd still likely fall behind but I don't think the comparison is out of the question
Your post contains two "if"s, one "might", and one "likely." That sums it up Crosby's case in relation to Big 4.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pappyline

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,294
14,950
Your post contains two "if"s, one "might", and one "likely." That sums it up Crosby's case in relation to Big 4.

I agree.

I was just saying it could have been possible so it's a bit unfortunate it didn't happen. He was the right caliber of player to maybe get closer than anyone else. But yes he's not close.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
I don't think kane or Karlsson did enough for long enough to take the title away from Crosby.

From 2014-15 through 2016-17, Kane was the highest scoring player in the NHL while playing the least amount of games among those top scorers. Only McDavid produced more on a per-game basis (1.17 to 1.15) though McDavid did not play in 2014-15.

Kane was the leading scorer in 2014-15 at the time of his injury. He went on to lead the 2015 playoffs in scoring. He was the leading scorer in 2015-16 by 17 points. He finished 2nd in scoring in 2016-17. As an individual, Kane performed better than Crosby over the totality of the three seasons following Crosby's 2014 Hart Trophy.

I say all of this because if three years of Patrick Kane wasn't enough to supplant Crosby in your mind, then I don't understand how 2006-07 alone is enough to carry Crosby's status through that 2007-08 to 2009-10 period when Alex Ovechkin won three-straight Lindsay/Pearson trophies along with two Harts and a runner-up to Henrik Sedin. Ovechkin was better in the year before Crosby's Hart (Pearson nomination in 2005-06) and better in the three years that followed, so if Kane didn't do it long enough, are you applying this standard equally to Crosby?

With Patrick Kane and Erik Karlsson and Carey Price and Connor McDavid and Jamie Benn (and even Evgeni Malkin) as a collective, there's enough evidence that Sidney Crosby has not been the best player in some time. That no one individual has established himself to be all alone on top for more than 1-2 years at a time does not mean that Crosby has been the best player by virtue of holding that distinction immediately before the recent rotation of Hart/Pearson winners that has not included him. Despite playing reasonably healthy seasons, he hasn't breached the 90-point barrier in 4 years - trailing the Art Ross winner by 21, 11, and as of now 19 points over the last 3 seasons.

If you want to paint with broad strokes until you feel comfortable that McDavid as an individual has the spot, I get it. But then it's only appropriate to say that Crosby's clock as the best didn't really start until 2010ish given how Ovechkin was playing in those early years save for one season of the five where Crosby was better than him.
 

daver

Registered User
Apr 4, 2003
25,964
5,833
Visit site
From 2014-15 through 2016-17, Kane was the highest scoring player in the NHL while playing the least amount of games among those top scorers. Only McDavid produced more on a per-game basis (1.17 to 1.15) though McDavid did not play in 2014-15.

Kane was the leading scorer in 2014-15 at the time of his injury. He went on to lead the 2015 playoffs in scoring. He was the leading scorer in 2015-16 by 17 points. He finished 2nd in scoring in 2016-17. As an individual, Kane performed better than Crosby over the totality of the three seasons following Crosby's 2014 Hart Trophy.

I say all of this because if three years of Patrick Kane wasn't enough to supplant Crosby in your mind, then I don't understand how 2006-07 alone is enough to carry Crosby's status through that 2007-08 to 2009-10 period when Alex Ovechkin won three-straight Lindsay/Pearson trophies along with two Harts and a runner-up to Henrik Sedin. Ovechkin was better in the year before Crosby's Hart (Pearson nomination in 2005-06) and better in the three years that followed, so if Kane didn't do it long enough, are you applying this standard equally to Crosby?

With Patrick Kane and Erik Karlsson and Carey Price and Connor McDavid and Jamie Benn (and even Evgeni Malkin) as a collective, there's enough evidence that Sidney Crosby has not been the best player in some time. That no one individual has established himself to be all alone on top for more than 1-2 years at a time does not mean that Crosby has been the best player by virtue of holding that distinction immediately before the recent rotation of Hart/Pearson winners that has not included him. Despite playing reasonably healthy seasons, he hasn't breached the 90-point barrier in 4 years - trailing the Art Ross winner by 21, 11, and as of now 19 points over the last 3 seasons.

If you want to paint with broad strokes until you feel comfortable that McDavid as an individual has the spot, I get it. But then it's only appropriate to say that Crosby's clock as the best didn't really start until 2010ish given how Ovechkin was playing in those early years save for one season of the five where Crosby was better than him.

The best player is intended to be a fluid designation, not simply looking at individual seasons in a vacuum.

If partial seasons and PPG are reasonably considered for Kane, then how isn't Crosby so far ahead of the pack as of 13/14 that it should take more than one season of superior play to join or overtake him? He was as dominant as Jagr was at his peak PPG-wise over a four season period from 10/11 to 13/14.

As of 13/14, Crosby was the best player by a gap not seen since Jagr as of 99/00 (if we are just considering forwards). I don't think there was a clear 2nd best at that point but rather a pack of players such as Malkin, OV, Kane, Stamkos.

In 14/15, Kane was behind Crosby in points and PPG, and should reasonably need to outscore him clearly to make up for the all around game that Crosby brings as a #1C vs. Kane as an offensive winger. Kane was solid in the playoffs again which does earn him some points but OV, Benn, Seguin and Malkin were also in that 2nd group. No player can be said outplayed Crosby that year.

In 15/16, Kane set himself apart from the 2nd group with Benn, and OV to challenge Crosby who was the 2nd best forward, all things considered for the 15/16 season. If Kane had another clear Art Ross win last year or clearly beat Crosby, I would have declared him the best player. Same for OV and Benn.

In 16/17, after a great WC performance, Crosby leads McDavid for most of the season, wins his 2nd Rocket, then wins the Conn Smythe again in a clearer fashion. I think McDavid has earned the 2nd spot over players like Kane, Malkin, Kucherov.

I give other players like Howe, Jagr in 01/02 and OV in 10/11 the benefit of the doubt after a drop in their performance to see if they can get back up the best player level the next season, I think Crosby has earned that for this year given that McDavid has not necessarily Gretzkyed the league.
 

daver

Registered User
Apr 4, 2003
25,964
5,833
Visit site
If you want to paint with broad strokes until you feel comfortable that McDavid as an individual has the spot, I get it. But then it's only appropriate to say that Crosby's clock as the best didn't really start until 2010ish given how Ovechkin was playing in those early years save for one season of the five where Crosby was better than him.

But OV was not the best player after 05/06 nor 06/07 so this is a moot point.

I would vote for Jagr and Thornton after 05/06, Lidstrom is listed in the HOH thread. After 06/07, I would have Crosby and Thornton (HOH list has Crosby and Lidstrom).

After 07/08, OV joined Crosby, who despite missing games, did not give any reason to remove him from the list. After 08/09, I would have added Malkin to the list with OV and Crosby, who again did not give any reason to remove him from the list. Same with 2009/10 although OV on his own is reasonable too.

Howe also had some sketchy years between 51 and 63/64 where you could have not had him at the top; both players did show that, at worst, they were #2 over lengths of time that are only rivaled or bettered by Wayne.
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,294
14,950
From 2014-15 through 2016-17, Kane was the highest scoring player in the NHL while playing the least amount of games among those top scorers. Only McDavid produced more on a per-game basis (1.17 to 1.15) though McDavid did not play in 2014-15.

Kane was the leading scorer in 2014-15 at the time of his injury. He went on to lead the 2015 playoffs in scoring. He was the leading scorer in 2015-16 by 17 points. He finished 2nd in scoring in 2016-17. As an individual, Kane performed better than Crosby over the totality of the three seasons following Crosby's 2014 Hart Trophy.

I say all of this because if three years of Patrick Kane wasn't enough to supplant Crosby in your mind, then I don't understand how 2006-07 alone is enough to carry Crosby's status through that 2007-08 to 2009-10 period when Alex Ovechkin won three-straight Lindsay/Pearson trophies along with two Harts and a runner-up to Henrik Sedin. Ovechkin was better in the year before Crosby's Hart (Pearson nomination in 2005-06) and better in the three years that followed, so if Kane didn't do it long enough, are you applying this standard equally to Crosby?

With Patrick Kane and Erik Karlsson and Carey Price and Connor McDavid and Jamie Benn (and even Evgeni Malkin) as a collective, there's enough evidence that Sidney Crosby has not been the best player in some time. That no one individual has established himself to be all alone on top for more than 1-2 years at a time does not mean that Crosby has been the best player by virtue of holding that distinction immediately before the recent rotation of Hart/Pearson winners that has not included him. Despite playing reasonably healthy seasons, he hasn't breached the 90-point barrier in 4 years - trailing the Art Ross winner by 21, 11, and as of now 19 points over the last 3 seasons.

If you want to paint with broad strokes until you feel comfortable that McDavid as an individual has the spot, I get it. But then it's only appropriate to say that Crosby's clock as the best didn't really start until 2010ish given how Ovechkin was playing in those early years save for one season of the five where Crosby was better than him.

A big component of mine is "who you expect to be the best player the following season/who do u take for 1 season".

Kane never had that. He came close. After 2015 you still take Crosby as he finishes 3rd in scoring (1 for ppg) after a dominating 13-14. Kane is knocking on the door a bit maybe but that's it.

After 15-16 regular season it would have been enough to have Kane #1 had Crosby not bounced back in 2nd half plus especially won the smythe. That extends his grace period. Smythe/2nd place hart/3rd place Ross + track record still has him #1 Going into next season. If you consider the 2016 world cup as an extension of the 2016 season even more so. You can say 1a/1b with Kane maybe but point is Crosby is still #1.

McDavid has 2 dominating seasons. He's ahead of both Kane and Benn. He's #1 now if Crosby doesn't have a dominating playoffs. If Crosby wins a smythe this year I'd say it's 1a/1b with Crosby and McDavid going into next year.

Why is it different then 07? Well in 05-06 I'd argue the best player in the world wasn't held too strongly by anyone. Coming off a missed season it was anyone's for the taking. Jagr was old but had a great year and it was Thorntons first great year at that level. By 07 Crosby was clearly better than both of them. If someone in 06 had a strong hold on "best player mantle" it might have taken longer to annoint Crosby.

That's why it's taking longer to annoint McDavid. Because of Crosby. Remove Crosby from the NHL and I'd say McDavid is best player in the world last year.

Ovechkin years. He never fully took away the mantle from Crosby who was right there with him throughout as a performer. Slightly less good reg season (less goals mostly) but made up with strong playoffs. 1a/1b and even 1c with Malkin some years

The year Crosby got beat in art Ross by 21 points he won the smythe and came in 2nd in Hart.
The year he got beat in art Ross by 11 points he won the rocket came 2nd in Hart and won the smythe.
In between those seasons he had a very dominating world cup mvp performance.

19 points away from Ross now. If he can't again make up ground with playoffs he loses his spot
 

daver

Registered User
Apr 4, 2003
25,964
5,833
Visit site
A big component of mine is "who you expect to be the best player the following season/who do u take for 1 season".

Kane never had that. He came close. After 2015 you still take Crosby as he finishes 3rd in scoring (1 for ppg) after a dominating 13-14. Kane is knocking on the door a bit maybe but that's it.

After 15-16 regular season it would have been enough to have Kane #1 had Crosby not bounced back in 2nd half plus especially won the smythe. That extends his grace period. Smythe/2nd place hart/3rd place Ross + track record still has him #1 Going into next season. If you consider the 2016 world cup as an extension of the 2016 season even more so. You can say 1a/1b with Kane maybe but point is Crosby is still #1.

McDavid has 2 dominating seasons. He's ahead of both Kane and Benn. He's #1 now if Crosby doesn't have a dominating playoffs. If Crosby wins a smythe this year I'd say it's 1a/1b with Crosby and McDavid going into next year.

Why is it different then 07? Well in 05-06 I'd argue the best player in the world wasn't held too strongly by anyone. Coming off a missed season it was anyone's for the taking. Jagr was old but had a great year and it was Thorntons first great year at that level. By 07 Crosby was clearly better than both of them. If someone in 06 had a strong hold on "best player mantle" it might have taken longer to annoint Crosby.

That's why it's taking longer to annoint McDavid. Because of Crosby. Remove Crosby from the NHL and I'd say McDavid is best player in the world last year.

Ovechkin years. He never fully took away the mantle from Crosby who was right there with him throughout as a performer. Slightly less good reg season (less goals mostly) but made up with strong playoffs. 1a/1b and even 1c with Malkin some years

The year Crosby got beat in art Ross by 21 points he won the smythe and came in 2nd in Hart.
The year he got beat in art Ross by 11 points he won the rocket came 2nd in Hart and won the smythe.
In between those seasons he had a very dominating world cup mvp performance.

19 points away from Ross now. If he can't again make up ground with playoffs he loses his spot

Pretty much this.

Howe's post 56/57 resume is similar. A combo of mediorce (by his standards) Art Ross finishes and playoff runs with a main challenger (Belliveau) standing out from one or two others but never quite cementing his case as being #1 on his own until Hull took over in the mid sixties.

I think an argument can be made that Howe was less of a #1 candidate at some points between 50/51 to 63/64 than Crosby has been. Either way, whatever metrics you want to apply to determine who is the best player year in and year out, Crosby is only surpassed by Howe and Wayne in longevity.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
A big component of mine is "who you expect to be the best player the following season/who do u take for 1 season".

So it's like how after one really good season the Canadian media continuously expected Paul Kariya to be so much better than he was - only without the reflection after another player wins two Hart Trophies, three Pearson Trophies, and a 4th Pearson nomination in a five-year span (2006-2010) while we had to wait until 2013 for Crosby's next 1st Team selection after that one really good season...

Consider that this measure, given its uneven application depending on how tightly you think someone's predecessor held on to the crown, is not a strong way to evaluate hockey players.

Or at the very least, recognize that I could say...

Hart Nominations, Stanley Cups
2003-2007 - Martin Brodeur (3 times, 1 time)
2008-2010 - Alex Ovechkin (3 times)
2011-2014 - Sidney Crosby (2 times)
2015-2016 - Patrick Kane (1 time, 1 time)
2017-2018 - Connor McDavid (?)

...and argue that Martin Brodeur with his string of Hart nominations in 2003, 2004, and 2007 along with his 2nd Team selection in 2006 and his playoff success in 2003 (not to mention his World Cup in 2004) established himself against a parade of Art Ross winners (Forsberg, St. Louis, Thornton, Crosby) as the true best player in hockey until Alex Ovechkin's back-to-back MVPs.

So I guess in the span bookended by his 2002 Olympic Gold and his 2008 Vezina, Martin Brodeur might have been the best player in hockey for longer than Sidney Crosby was the best player in hockey. Way to go, Martin Brodeur.

Or, like I said, maybe this isn't a strong way to evaluate hockey players.
 

daver

Registered User
Apr 4, 2003
25,964
5,833
Visit site
So it's like how after one really good season the Canadian media continuously expected Paul Kariya to be so much better than he was - only without the reflection after another player wins two Hart Trophies, three Pearson Trophies, and a 4th Pearson nomination in a five-year span (2006-2010) while we had to wait until 2013 for Crosby's next 1st Team selection after that one really good season...

Consider that this measure, given its uneven application depending on how tightly you think someone's predecessor held on to the crown, is not a strong way to evaluate hockey players.

Or at the very least, recognize that I could say...

Hart Nominations, Stanley Cups
2003-2007 - Martin Brodeur (3 times, 1 time)
2008-2010 - Alex Ovechkin (3 times)
2011-2014 - Sidney Crosby (2 times)
2015-2016 - Patrick Kane (1 time, 1 time)
2017-2018 - Connor McDavid (?)

...and argue that Martin Brodeur with his string of Hart nominations in 2003, 2004, and 2007 along with his 2nd Team selection in 2006 and his playoff success in 2003 (not to mention his World Cup in 2004) established himself against a parade of Art Ross winners (Forsberg, St. Louis, Thornton, Crosby) as the true best player in hockey until Alex Ovechkin's back-to-back MVPs.

So I guess in the span bookended by his 2002 Olympic Gold and his 2008 Vezina, Martin Brodeur might have been the best player in hockey for longer than Sidney Crosby was the best player in hockey. Way to go, Martin Brodeur.

Or, like I said, maybe this isn't a strong way to evaluate hockey players.

You are basing your whole response on one sentence of their post rather than the very well written case that was laid out?

The "Best Player" thread has been referenced and BobHolly and I have both laid out a case for Crosby. You seem to want to nitpick rather than put yourself out there with your own list.

I would be interested to see your list of "Best Players", specifically during Howe's and Crosby's careers.
 

Thenameless

Registered User
Apr 29, 2014
3,855
1,788
quoipourquoi, that's why it's so important to "have been there", sometimes at least. Stat analyzing and trophy counting don't quite tell the whole truth.

The player that I've noticed who seems to be ranked lower because of stats and trophies is Maurice Richard. But, when I speak with a lot of old timers (living in Vancouver and Toronto for most of my life), quite a few still have him as the or at least one of the best players of all time. Here on HFBoards, the consensus seems to be a Big 4 with Richard not even being the strongest contender for 5th (most usual suspects being Beliveau, Bobby Hull, Doug Harvey, and now Crosby), but a lot of the older gentlemen that were avid hockey fans swear by The Rocket. I wish I knew hockey fans that go all the way back to the Morenz era and even earlier.
 
  • Like
Reactions: quoipourquoi

Laineux

Registered User
Aug 1, 2011
5,267
2,826
I don't think that who "holds the crown" of the best player is very meaningful at all. Whether you want to believe that Crosby still is the best player in the league despite probably not being top 10 during the regular season, it doesn't add any value to the season he actually had.

Really don't see much point in that kind of thinking. Instead of imaginary crowns we can evaluate exactly what Crosby has done.

Were Gretzky fans pumping Gretzky's tires for being the best in the world for so long in 1998?
 

daver

Registered User
Apr 4, 2003
25,964
5,833
Visit site
I don't think that who "holds the crown" of the best player is very meaningful at all. Whether you want to believe that Crosby still is the best player in the league despite probably not being top 10 during the regular season, it doesn't add any value to the season he actually had.

Really don't see much point in that kind of thinking. Instead of imaginary crowns we can evaluate exactly what Crosby has done.

Were Gretzky fans pumping Gretzky's tires for being the best in the world for so long in 1998?

It's a best of all-time in league history discussion; the best player at any given time in league history should hold some relevance don't you think? And players who have held that title for longer than two of the Big Four should also hold some relevance.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
The "Best Player" thread has been referenced and BobHolly and I have both laid out a case for Crosby. You seem to want to nitpick rather than put yourself out there with your own list.

...you say in response to me laying out a timeline of 2003-2007 (Brodeur), 2008-2010 (Ovechkin), 2011-2014 (Crosby), 2015-2016 (Kane), 2017-2018 (McDavid)...

But if you and bobholly39 have come into each of the last 13 seasons expecting Sidney Crosby to win the Hart and Art Ross Trophies, then you've been correct the same amount of times as the broken clock in my kitchen: twice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pappyline

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,354
A big component of mine is "who you expect to be the best player the following season/who do u take for 1 season".

Kane never had that. He came close. After 2015 you still take Crosby as he finishes 3rd in scoring (1 for ppg) after a dominating 13-14. Kane is knocking on the door a bit maybe but that's it.

After 15-16 regular season it would have been enough to have Kane #1 had Crosby not bounced back in 2nd half plus especially won the smythe. That extends his grace period. Smythe/2nd place hart/3rd place Ross + track record still has him #1 Going into next season. If you consider the 2016 world cup as an extension of the 2016 season even more so. You can say 1a/1b with Kane maybe but point is Crosby is still #1.

McDavid has 2 dominating seasons. He's ahead of both Kane and Benn. He's #1 now if Crosby doesn't have a dominating playoffs. If Crosby wins a smythe this year I'd say it's 1a/1b with Crosby and McDavid going into next year.

Why is it different then 07? Well in 05-06 I'd argue the best player in the world wasn't held too strongly by anyone. Coming off a missed season it was anyone's for the taking. Jagr was old but had a great year and it was Thorntons first great year at that level. By 07 Crosby was clearly better than both of them. If someone in 06 had a strong hold on "best player mantle" it might have taken longer to annoint Crosby.

That's why it's taking longer to annoint McDavid. Because of Crosby. Remove Crosby from the NHL and I'd say McDavid is best player in the world last year.

Ovechkin years. He never fully took away the mantle from Crosby who was right there with him throughout as a performer. Slightly less good reg season (less goals mostly) but made up with strong playoffs. 1a/1b and even 1c with Malkin some years

The year Crosby got beat in art Ross by 21 points he won the smythe and came in 2nd in Hart.
The year he got beat in art Ross by 11 points he won the rocket came 2nd in Hart and won the smythe.
In between those seasons he had a very dominating world cup mvp performance.

19 points away from Ross now. If he can't again make up ground with playoffs he loses his spot

You're giving Crosby the benefit of redeeming questionable regular seasons with great playoff runs. Which is entirely appropriate. But other players need to be afforded the same benefit. After a third Cup in the spring of 2015, in which he was the leading scorer, Kane should easily be preferred to Crosby heading into the next season by your criteria.
 

daver

Registered User
Apr 4, 2003
25,964
5,833
Visit site
...you say in response to me laying out a timeline of 2003-2007 (Brodeur), 2008-2010 (Ovechkin), 2011-2014 (Crosby), 2015-2016 (Kane), 2017-2018 (McDavid)...

But if you and bobholly39 have come into each of the last 13 seasons expecting Sidney Crosby to win the Hart and Art Ross Trophies, then you've been correct the same amount of times as the broken clock in my kitchen: twice.

So Brodeur is the best player in the world after the 02/03 season? That doesn't seem like a popular opinion but what about Howe? Is he the best player from 50/51 to 62/63 if you apply the same metrics you are for Crosby?
 

daver

Registered User
Apr 4, 2003
25,964
5,833
Visit site
You're giving Crosby the benefit of redeeming questionable regular seasons with great playoff runs. Which is entirely appropriate. But other players need to be afforded the same benefit. After a third Cup in the spring of 2015, in which he was the leading scorer, Kane should easily be preferred to Crosby heading into the next season by your criteria.

So do you think Howe was the best/co-best player from 50/51 to 62/63 according to the HOH thread?
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,354
So do you think Howe was the best/co-best player from 50/51 to 62/63 according to the HOH thread?

Haven't given it much thought to be honest. As I said earlier, evaluating players by this metric has all sorts of issues; namely the performance of other players that the player in question has no control over. Calling it trivia might be a bit extreme, but I'd still say it's more of a footnote to the actual performance that occurred in those seasons.
 
  • Like
Reactions: quoipourquoi

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad