Better Duo: Roy/Bourque or Hasek/Lidstrom?

[avsfan9]

Roy/Bourque vs Hasek/Lidstrom

Which duo would you take on your team for their entire careers?

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[avsfan9]

I saw these combos in another thread and thought it would be a good debate. Can’t go wrong with either, but I homer pick my avs.

 

[bobholly39]

I prefer Roy to Hasek and Bourque to Lidstrom so easy choice.

 

[The Macho King]

Roy/Bourque by a comfortable margin.

Roy >= Hasek
Bourque >> Lidstrom

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

I prefer Roy to Hasek and Bourque to Lidstrom so easy choice.

Same for me.

 

[wintersej]

I prefer Hasek to Roy more than I prefer Bourque to Lidstrom so went with Hasek/Lids

 

[The Abusement Park]

Hasek is the better regular season goalie(this is not meant to be a slight towards Haseks playoff ability), but I think Roy may be the greatest playoff player of all time. Lidstrom/Bourque is a wash for me so I think I’d lean Roy/Bourque, but I mean you really can’t go wrong here.

 

[Merrrlin]

I can't decide between Lidstrom/Bourque, but I like Hasek more than Roy.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Hasek > Roy
Lidstrom < Bourque

Hasek is the best player so Hasek/Lidstrom.

 

[Voight]

Roy/Bourque by a comfortable margin.

Roy >= Hasek
Bourque >> Lidstrom

I second this

 

[amnesiac]

flip a coin, its that close

 

[LarKing]

Hasek is the better regular season goalie(this is not meant to be a slight towards Haseks playoff ability), but I think Roy may be the greatest playoff player of all time. Lidstrom/Bourque is a wash for me so I think I’d lean Roy/Bourque, but I mean you really can’t go wrong here.

I’m not saying I disagree necessarily, but Hasek’s playoff stats are better than Roy’s.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I’m not saying I disagree necessarily, but Hasek’s playoff stats are better than Roy’s.

Keep in mind that Roy played 114 playoff games prior to 1995 (when scoring really started to drop) compared to only 14 for Hasek. Adjusted for era, Roy had a better save percentage than Hasek in the playoffs. (The same principle applies in the regular season - Roy played in an era that was high-scoring and featured lower save percentages. Hasek is still ahead after adjusting, but it's much closer than it first appears).

 

[wintersej]

Keep in mind that Roy played 114 playoff games prior to 1995 (when scoring really started to drop) compared to only 14 for Hasek. Adjusted for era, Roy had a better save percentage than Hasek in the playoffs. (The same principle applies in the regular season - Roy played in an era that was high-scoring and featured lower save percentages. Hasek is still ahead after adjusting, but it's much closer than it first appears).

Its worth noting that Hasek didn't join a good team until he was 37. Roy retired at 37. Roy joining Colorado at age 30 is a real advantage for him when trying to compare these stats. While Zhitnik was a solid player, the Jason Woolley types that Hasek was behind is a far cry from Blake, Bourque, Foote, etc. Nevermind the quality of having Forsberg and Sakic in the middle (with full respect to Peca who was one of the my favorites).

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Its worth noting that Hasek didn't join a good team until he was 37. Roy retired at 37. Roy joining Colorado at age 30 is a real advantage for him when trying to compare these stats. While Zhitnik was a solid player, the Jason Woolley types that Hasek was behind is a far cry from Blake, Bourque, Foote, etc. Nevermind the quality of having Forsberg and Sakic in the middle (with full respect to Peca who was one of the my favorites).

Yes, those are fair points as well. In terms of age - one of my posts looks at their peak save percentage (I think it was over their best five years - I'd have to dig it up to be sure). That was important to examine because, as you suggested, we don't want Hasek to get penalized for playing longer. From what I recall, it was something like 93.0% to 92.5% for Hasek. So there's little doubt that Hasek had a better peak - just that it's much closer than the stats suggest.

As for the comment that Roy played behind better teams - that's obviously true (on average). But there's isn't a way to account for that in their stats, at least as far as I'm aware. So, my approach is - adjust for what you can in their stats, and then talk about what you can't.

 

[North Cole]

I think Bourque is better than Lidstrom by more than Hasek is better than Roy.

 

[The Macho King]

Yes, those are fair points as well. In terms of age - one of my posts looks at their peak save percentage (I think it was over their best five years - I'd have to dig it up to be sure). That was important to examine because, as you suggested, we don't want Hasek to get penalized for playing longer. From what I recall, it was something like 93.0% to 92.5% for Hasek. So there's little doubt that Hasek had a better peak - just that it's much closer than the stats suggest.

As for the comment that Roy played behind better teams - that's obviously true (on average). But there's isn't a way to account for that in their stats, at least as far as I'm aware. So, my approach is - adjust for what you can in their stats, and then talk about what you can't.

We debated these two pretty hard in the top 100 poll, and I ended up coming down with Roy, and it mainly came down to the postseason.

Not the stats mind you - but rather who was going to suit up.

Hasek showed a few times that if he wasn't 100%, he wasn't playing (I believe it happened once in Buffalo and once in Ottawa), whether he was the best option or not. I don't know the reasons, all I know is that I think if Roy had one arm getting ready to fall off and his asshole was leaking profusely, he'd strap up the arm, put on a diaper, and get between the pipes.

But it's close - razor thin margin between these two and I don't think there's a wrong answer.

The Bourque/Lidstrom question is different. There's one that's just objectively better than the other.

 

[Mitch nylander]

Hasek is miles better then Roy, I don't see any argument otherwise outside of Conn Smythes....

Hasek Vs Roy (left is Hasek, Roy is Right)
Career Regulation Sv% - .922 vs .910
Career Regulation GAA - 2.20 vs 2.54
Career Playoff sv% - .925 vs .918
Career Playoff GAA - 2.02 vs 2.30
Career Shutouts - 81 vs 66
Seasons with .930 sv% or over - 5 vs 0
Seasons with .920 sv% or over - 8 vs 2
Times led the league in sv% - 7 vs 4
Times led the league in Shutouts- 4 vs 3
All Time Ranking Sv% - 1st place - 55th
All Time Ranking GAA - 7th vs 48th
1st all star team - 6 vs 4
Vezina Trophies (Best Goalie) - 6 vs 3
Hart Trophies (League MVP) - 2 vs 0
Ted Lindseys (Best Player) - 2 vs 0
Conn Smythes (Playoff MVP) - 0 vs 3
Jennings (Best Goalie Duo) - 3 vs 5
Total Trophies - 13 vs 11
Stanley Cups - 2 vs 4
-----------------
Hasek wins 16 - 3

But bourque is clearly better then lidstrom.

Good Poll, chose Hasek + Lidstrom tho

 

[Love]

Hasek is miles better then Roy, I don't see any argument otherwise outside of Conn Smythes....

Hasek Vs Roy (left is Hasek, Roy is Right)
Career Regulation Sv% - .922 vs .910
Career Regulation GAA - 2.2o vs 2.54
Career Playoff sv% - .925 vs .918
Career Playoff GAA - 2.02 vs 2.30
Career Shutouts - 81 vs 66
Seasons with .930 sv% or over - 5 vs 0
Seasons with .920 sv% or over - 8 vs 2
Times led the league in sv% - 7 vs 4
Times led the league in Shutouts- 4 vs 3
All Time Ranking Sv% - 1st place - 55th
All Time Ranking GAA - 7th vs 48th
1st all star team - 6 vs 4
Vezina Trophies (Best Goalie) - 6 vs 3
Hart Trophies (League MVP) - 2 vs 0
Ted Lindseys (Best Player) - 2 vs 0
Conn Smythes (Playoff MVP) - 0 vs 3
Jennings (Best Goalie Duo) - 3 vs 5
Total Trophies - 13 vs 11
Stanley Cups - 2 vs 4
-----------------
Hasek wins 16 - 3

But bourque is clearly better then lidstrom.

Good Poll, chose Hasek + Lidstrom tho

Thank you. People saying Roy makes no sense at all.

 

[M88K]

I prefer Hasek to Roy but Bourque to Lidstrom so went Roy/Bourque

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Hasek/Lidstrom and it wasn't too difficult to arrive at that. Roy/Borque is all-time fantastic but Hasek and Lids were just a bit better.

 

[Regal]

Yes, those are fair points as well. In terms of age - one of my posts looks at their peak save percentage (I think it was over their best five years - I'd have to dig it up to be sure). That was important to examine because, as you suggested, we don't want Hasek to get penalized for playing longer. From what I recall, it was something like 93.0% to 92.5% for Hasek. So there's little doubt that Hasek had a better peak - just that it's much closer than the stats suggest.

As for the comment that Roy played behind better teams - that's obviously true (on average). But there's isn't a way to account for that in their stats, at least as far as I'm aware. So, my approach is - adjust for what you can in their stats, and then talk about what you can't.

Are Roy's numbers adjusted for average goalies or against the best? Looking at late 80s and early 90s goalie stats, the disparity between the top and bottom seems to be greater than in the mid 90s to early 2000s. To me this would make sense, as the equipment improvements and ballooning size, combined with the style changes that made the position more about positioning than reacting made it harder for talent to stand out. Add in more defensive systems helping eliminate rebound and cross crease passes and it leveled the field even more. I also think team systems tend to have a greater impact on goalie stats in high scoring environments, as the worst teams are going to be giving up a much higher percentage of high quality chances. We've even seen that the last couple years here, with starters posting some sub-.900 numbers that you rarely saw for years. The Canadiens were one of the better defensive teams, and I wonder how much of an effect that had on Roy's numbers.

 

[Regal]

Hasek is miles better then Roy, I don't see any argument otherwise outside of Conn Smythes....

Hasek Vs Roy (left is Hasek, Roy is Right)
Career Regulation Sv% - .922 vs .910
Career Regulation GAA - 2.20 vs 2.54
Career Playoff sv% - .925 vs .918
Career Playoff GAA - 2.02 vs 2.30
Career Shutouts - 81 vs 66
Seasons with .930 sv% or over - 5 vs 0
Seasons with .920 sv% or over - 8 vs 2
Times led the league in sv% - 7 vs 4
Times led the league in Shutouts- 4 vs 3
All Time Ranking Sv% - 1st place - 55th
All Time Ranking GAA - 7th vs 48th
1st all star team - 6 vs 4
Vezina Trophies (Best Goalie) - 6 vs 3
Hart Trophies (League MVP) - 2 vs 0
Ted Lindseys (Best Player) - 2 vs 0
Conn Smythes (Playoff MVP) - 0 vs 3
Jennings (Best Goalie Duo) - 3 vs 5
Total Trophies - 13 vs 11
Stanley Cups - 2 vs 4
-----------------
Hasek wins 16 - 3

But bourque is clearly better then lidstrom.

Good Poll, chose Hasek + Lidstrom tho

You're comparing the stats of goalies that peaked in wildly different scoring environments. That's like arguing Bourque was way better than Lidstrom because he scored 437 more points in only 48 more games.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Are Roy's numbers adjusted for average goalies or against the best? Looking at late 80s and early 90s goalie stats, the disparity between the top and bottom seems to be greater than in the mid 90s to early 2000s. To me this would make sense, as the equipment improvements and ballooning size, combined with the style changes that made the position more about positioning than reacting made it harder for talent to stand out. Add in more defensive systems helping eliminate rebound and cross crease passes and it leveled the field even more. I also think team systems tend to have a greater impact on goalie stats in high scoring environments, as the worst teams are going to be giving up a much higher percentage of high quality chances. We've even seen that the last couple years here, with starters posting some sub-.900 numbers that you rarely saw for years. The Canadiens were one of the better defensive teams, and I wonder how much of an effect that had on Roy's numbers.

That's a good question. It's adjusted compared to the league average. The counter-argument might be there's more spread between the best and worst goalies between Roy and Hasek's primes, but there's actually very little difference. The standard error (a measure of how dispersed the data is) is virtually identical over their five best seasons (1.38% for Hasek, 1.43% for Roy). So, there are many factors that favour either goalie, but I don't think this one really makes a difference.

But you're right - Roy, on average, played behind better defenses. It's well-established that save percentage isn't impacted by a goalie facing more/less shots (at the season level - there appears to be some impact at the individual game level, perhaps due to "playing to the score" effects). But if someone argues that Hasek faced shots that were tougher to stop on average compared to Roy, that would be an argument in his favour.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Hasek's peak was undeniably the most game changing force on the entire list.


Hasek owned Roy head-to-head during the overlaps in their careers.

What Hasek did in the 98 Olympics, I'm not sure Roy has in him.
When they squared off against each other in Nagano, he got severely outclassed in a goal tending duel in front of the world, when Roy had a team of All-Stars, while Hasek had 11 NHLers.

I love Roy.
Love how consistent he was. Live his fiery competitiveness. He influenced the game more than Hasek.

But yeah at their peaks, Hasek was undeniably better.


It's almost like comparing Mario Lemieux to Jagr.