ForsbergForever
Registered User
- May 19, 2004
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30 years? I would be tempted to put Eric Desjardins into this debate.
Bargain Bin was a piece of shit for sure
PK Subban was a legit HOF talent. He was better for sure.
Who had the better career? It's closer because Subban's ended prematurely. A lot closer from that perspective.
Hey, when you have the opportunity to sign perennial Norris contender, Karl Alzner, you say, ‘Andrei who?’.
He was definitively better. A top theee blueliner at worst and great from the moment he stepped on the ice in his first game. He was also an absolute monster in the playoffs. Injuries derailed his career or he’d be a blue chip HoFer.I disagree that subban was better "for sure". At the very least, it shouldn't be cut and dry.
Subban won his Norris playing mostly next to Josh GorgesThe guy who made the other guy look good
Markov with HM to Hamrlik, Weber and Subban.
Subban was not even the most used D-man on the team in his Norris year. It was 34 years old Markov.Subban won his Norris playing mostly next to Josh Gorges
Most used isn’t equivalent to bestSubban was not even the most used D-man on the team in his Norris year. It was 34 years old Markov.
If you understand how hockey works you don’t look at raw numbers, you look at how players compared to their peers. You also look at playoff performances and Norris voting. It’s a clean sweep for Subban.If you understand how hockey works, there can only be one vote and it's Markov.
PK had a very high peak but even then, he wasn't able to Markov' single season mark. When you factor in longevity as well, it becomes a no contest.
Most used isn’t equivalent to best
If you understand how hockey works you don’t look at raw numbers, you look at how players compared to their peers. You also look at playoff performances and Norris voting. It’s a clean sweep for Subban.
Honestly, this is pretty open and shut. Subban was better by pretty much every measure.
Subban was also a big game player and Markov never was. To put it in perspective, Subban’s numbers actually went up in the playoffs. He had a better playoff point rate with the Habs than Claude Lemieux did with Montreal - and isn’t far off in goals. That’s in a lower scoring era and he was a defenseman. It’s beyond me how anyone could take Markov over him. Subban’s better by every measure.
The playoffs are only one part of it.It is a pretty good indicator. If a coach is playing one player more than the other, it's because that player gives him a better chance to win.
We've had this conversation before and I agree that Subban is a better playoffs performer. But not everything is playoffs. Rene Bourque was a beast in the playoffs. Doesn't make him more useful for 90% of other games.
The team's record with and without Markov is pretty telling. Lottery team without him, 100+ pts team with him.
Even after we traded Subban, the team still made the playoffs. You might say it was because of Weber but the year the team did not renew Markov's contract was the last time the Habs made the playoffs in a normal year. Weber was not able to do anything without the General. Got outproduced by a 38 years Markov the year they played together.
I don't need Norris voting to see who is better. I watched both on the same team for years. Markov was the better player as simple as that. Not everyone can appreciate the things he did on the ice because they are not flashy. Marky doing those things allowed Subban to be a free as he was.
Markov was great but one dimensional. Amazing PP, amazing transition, amazing first pass. But Subban could do all of that while being one of the best rushing blueliners in the league. And Subban could dish out punishment and clear the crease.
I also voted for Markov, but his getting injured cost him the chance to play 1000 games. I can't blame Marc Bergevin for not wanting to sign someone who could no longer skate (although I never was able to figure out the Alzner signing). I also think calling Bergevin "Russophobic" is a bit much. Did he not realize Alexander Radulov was Russian when he signed him and let Radulov walk a year later after finding out his nationality?The guy Montreal did not let to play 1000 games with the club
Absolutely pathetic move by then Russophobic Habs management, getting rid of all Russian players including Markov who had 10 more games to reach 1000 with Montreal and who was 0.5 PPG in his last season
I also voted for Markov, but his getting injured cost him the chance to play 1000 games. I can't blame Marc Bergevin for not wanting to sign someone who could no longer skate (although I never was able to figure out the Alzner signing). I also think calling Bergevin "Russophobic" is a bit much. Did he not realize Alexander Radulov was Russian when he signed him and let Radulov walk a year later after finding out his nationality?
Subban peaked higher, but that was relatively short. Subban from 13 to 15 was the best D in the league.
Markov was probably top 3 in 2006-2010 but he missed a lot of time then and had stiffer competition, prime Chara, Keith, Lidstrom.
Markov was essentially great for 10 years though. A true 1D.
Very much so.One dimensional?
I didn’t say Markov sucked. Really good offensive player. And the Canadiens were an offensively challenged shallow club. And yes, if you took Markov away, the club’s offense would sink. And Subban was only 22 at the time.That's why the team record suffered so much while he was injured?
What happened in 2011-2012 when Markov missed the whole season? The Habs drafted 3rd overall LOL.
Subban was a 30 pts D-man. The next season, Markov is back and magically the team makes the playoffs and Subban wins the Norris (lockout shortened season).
Sure. But he was able to finish top 3 in Norris voting without him. And in Subban’s Norris season he was played mostly with Josh Georges.Subban put up 60 pts in his best season playing with Markov.
You are mistaken. And maybe this is where the disconnect is. 64 points in Markov’s time is radically different from getting 60 points in the 2010s.Markov put up 64 pts in his best season playing with 34 year old Hamrlik, Josh Gorges and Mike Komisarek and leading the team in pts until the last game.
So even peak Subban doesn't beat Marky.