Bergevin on bridge deals

[Miller Time]

Yeah, and 3+ years from now when Subban's Cap will be better than it otherwise would have been and we need to sign Scherbak and whoever, what do we say then?

These things even out.

No, they don't even out. If that were the case the cup would rotate equitably over time.
In reality some organizations do better than others, luck & timing are big big factors, but so is asset management. Ken holland inherited a lot of luck, but if you look at the past 20 years, he's also made better use of his assets the a guy like glen sather (and $, cap space, fan support, staff et. Are all assets that fall under the scope of influence of a GM.



Windows of competitive opportunity ebb and flow.

Best teams manage it better and take better calculated risks.

No guarantees either way.

I could be proven wrong in that tinordi/ Beaulieu/Galch/Gally/Eller don't progress and play to a level well above their elc/rfa contract status.

Max Pac is the only "sure" thing in the sense that he should remain a "steal" at his cap hit.

At the time we signed him, the deal was better for him than for us. Calculated risk that paid of.

Could have easily given him the Ryder/Higgins treatment, with a 1-2 year extension instead. In which case he'd now be a 6m$+ cap hit.

The next (3-4 years from now) wave of young talent may prove better than current one. Scherbak, mccarron, fucale et. And if they do, having a Beaulieu or tinordi or Galch or Gally, playing at elite level while on deals that pay them maxpac money (or Subban non-bridge money) will be of huge value.

Habs missed a great window.
Subban is here either way, question is how much better could we have leveraged his & the current nucleus of young cheap talent?

When was the last time we had a group this young & this good & with this much potential?

Maximizing these windows is key, we made a mistake in undervaluing an asset when we could have taken advantage of rfa status for 5 yrs instead of just two.

Mistakes do happen.

 

[VL55]

No, they don't even out. If that were the case the cup would rotate equitably over time.
In reality some organizations do better than others, luck & timing are big big factors, but so is asset management. Ken holland inherited a lot of luck, but if you look at the past 20 years, he's also made better use of his assets the a guy like glen sather (and $, cap space, fan support, staff et. Are all assets that fall under the scope of influence of a GM.



Windows of competitive opportunity ebb and flow.

Best teams manage it better and take better calculated risks.

No guarantees either way.

I could be proven wrong in that tinordi/ Beaulieu/Galch/Gally/Eller don't progress and play to a level well above their elc/rfa contract status.

Max Pac is the only "sure" thing in the sense that he should remain a "steal" at his cap hit.

At the time we signed him, the deal was better for him than for us. Calculated risk that paid of.

Could have easily given him the Ryder/Higgins treatment, with a 1-2 year extension instead. In which case he'd now be a 6m$+ cap hit.

The next (3-4 years from now) wave of young talent may prove better than current one. Scherbak, mccarron, fucale et. And if they do, having a Beaulieu or tinordi or Galch or Gally, playing at elite level while on deals that pay them maxpac money (or Subban non-bridge money) will be of huge value.

Habs missed a great window.
Subban is here either way, question is how much better could we have leveraged his & the current nucleus of young cheap talent?

When was the last time we had a group this young & this good & with this much potential?

Maximizing these windows is key, we made a mistake in undervaluing an asset when we could have taken advantage of rfa status for 5 yrs instead of just two.

Mistakes do happen.

Fine, we'll revisit the subject when we have to let go of a young talent for lack of cap space.

Fo it to be mistake, there has to be a cost. We've yet to pay any cost over it so...

 

[Andrei79]

Management weren't sure about him. I don't know why anyone would believe the bridge deal "policy" had anything to do with his contract. The guy's inconsistent game to game.

 

[Miller Time]

Fine, we'll revisit the subject when we have to let go of a young talent for lack of cap space.

Fo it to be mistake, there has to be a cost. We've yet to pay any cost over it so...

?

it's not about the cost of not keeping our young talent… it's about not having the extra 3-4M$ to be more aggressive in bolstering our existing young talent with veteran reinforcements superior to the Bourque/Gilbert/Briere variety.

the difference btw having 2.5M$ in cap space, and 6.5M$ in cap space, is the difference between being able to swing a deal for a quality veteran with a large cap hit from a team needing the cap relief, and picking off the scrap heap or needing to send similar cap space the other way.

any quick survey of the past 2-3 years will turn up a number of deals where a team with cap flexibility was able to add talent in exchange for picks/prospects provided they didn't send cap the other way.

being able to be a team in a position to benefit from that, AND have the talent in place to contend, is not something that happens all the time… you need to get lucky and take advantage of the opportunity, like the habs could have, had they properly evaluated Subban two years ago.

 

[Miller Time]

Management weren't sure about him. I don't know why anyone would believe the bridge deal "policy" had anything to do with his contract. The guy's inconsistent game to game.

bingo.

and, at the time, some (both here and in the professional hockey circles) knew what he was/was going to be, and, as hindsight now empahtically supports, MB was wrong in his evaluation. can't be right all the time, just sucks to be wrong with the big ones...

shame that management was wrong, it happens… people make mistakes… not the end of the world, especially since MOlson stepped in and got the long term extension done.
although it is irritating to see MB continue to talk about how much subban has "matured" the past 2 years, as if repeating it over and over will somehow make it true… it isnt (beyond the natural maturation of anyone in their early 20's, and less so in this case given how mature the kid already was compared to most of his peers), MB made a mistake & doesn't seem to keen or able to admit it.. at least not publicly.

 

[Agnostic]

bingo.

and, at the time, some (both here and in the professional hockey circles) knew what he was/was going to be, and, as hindsight now empahtically supports, MB was wrong in his evaluation. can't be right all the time, just sucks to be wrong with the big ones...

shame that management was wrong, it happens… people make mistakes… not the end of the world, especially since MOlson stepped in and got the long term extension done.
although it is irritating to see MB continue to talk about how much subban has "matured" the past 2 years, as if repeating it over and over will somehow make it true… it isnt (beyond the natural maturation of anyone in their early 20's, and less so in this case given how mature the kid already was compared to most of his peers), MB made a mistake & doesn't seem to keen or able to admit it.. at least not publicly.

I always trust that there is more information to any player evaluation than what we see. As much as fans want to overlook a players down side, the GM and coaches see things and hear things. He's media trained and has developed a good image with fans but the attitude of his coach and fellow players at least gives reason to think there are layers to PK. To say he didn't need to mature is to ignore some of the past.

My immediate concern lies with the Captaincy and whether the team has correctly handled this. Markov was testy when asked about it. Plekanec laughed , paused, laughed, and finally capitulated to his media training when asked about PK having an "A". I think there is some underlying attitude that we can't see, I can't put a finger on it but I am not ready to think there isn't something there.

Maybe MB did make a mistake, but I am not yet ready to say PK is above a bridge, above having to prove himself inside the dressing room, and above having to work for the captaincy.

And despite this I have a signed PK jersey and consider him my favourite player.

 

[Kriss E]

I always trust that there is more information to any player evaluation than what we see. As much as fans want to overlook a players down side, the GM and coaches see things and hear things. He's media trained and has developed a good image with fans but the attitude of his coach and fellow players at least gives reason to think there are layers to PK. To say he didn't need to mature is to ignore some of the past.

My immediate concern lies with the Captaincy and whether the team has correctly handled this. Markov was testy when asked about it. Plekanec laughed , paused, laughed, and finally capitulated to his media training when asked about PK having an "A". I think there is some underlying attitude that we can't see, I can't put a finger on it but I am not ready to think there isn't something there.

Maybe MB did make a mistake, but I am not yet ready to say PK is above a bridge, above having to prove himself inside the dressing room, and above having to work for the captaincy.

And despite this I have a signed PK jersey and consider him my favourite player.

Are you saying Plekanec has issues with PK being given an ''A''?

 

[Kriss E]

Bridge deal was an obvious mistake. Stop being stubborn for the sake of it man.
I think that even if Bergevin said it himself some here would try to spin around it.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Bridge deal was an obvious mistake. Stop being stubborn for the sake of it man.
I think that even if Bergevin said it himself some here would try to spin around it.

One of the only good things about the bridge deal was that he could the impose it on other RFAs... Now his fanboys and he himself are saying that isn't the case.

Infuriating.

 

[Frozenice]

bingo.

and, at the time, some (both here and in the professional hockey circles) knew what he was/was going to be, and, as hindsight now empahtically supports, MB was wrong in his evaluation. can't be right all the time, just sucks to be wrong with the big ones...

shame that management was wrong, it happens… people make mistakes… not the end of the world, especially since MOlson stepped in and got the long term extension done.
although it is irritating to see MB continue to talk about how much subban has "matured" the past 2 years, as if repeating it over and over will somehow make it true… it isnt (beyond the natural maturation of anyone in their early 20's, and less so in this case given how mature the kid already was compared to most of his peers), MB made a mistake & doesn't seem to keen or able to admit it.. at least not publicly.

In the real world when a boss doesn't really like or respect an employee, the employee usually gets the hint and moves on to somewhere where he is appreciated. Whether by transferring, getting a promotion, bidding or requesting a different job or going to work for a different company. PK has chosen a different path and that's his choice and we will see how it plays out or if things really change.

Whether MB is right or wrong, I don't think Hab's management will ever have anything more then a tolerance or at most an indifference towards PK. Changing of their mindset just doesn't seem like it's in the cards. Look at a lot of posters here, you can presents the facts, the truth over and over again, all to no avail.

 

[Agnostic]

Bridge deal was an obvious mistake. Stop being stubborn for the sake of it man.
I think that even if Bergevin said it himself some here would try to spin around it.

That ship has sailed . Get over it and stop trying to get the last word in on everything. If there any argument you ever passed up... ever.. in history?

 

[Sorinth]

Fine, we'll revisit the subject when we have to let go of a young talent for lack of cap space.

Fo it to be mistake, there has to be a cost. We've yet to pay any cost over it so...

There is a cost even if we don't see it. What if we can't sign a UFA that was interested in playing for us because we can't afford it? Same thing for trade discussions, what if the other team doesn't want to take salary back and we don't have the cap space to acquire the player we want?

We will never know what it actually cost us.

 

[Kriss E]

That ship has sailed . Get over it and stop trying to get the last word in on everything. If there any argument you ever passed up... ever.. in history?

Pretty ironic, but I agree, the ship has sailed.

Back to your Plekanec comment though, not sure I understood. Are you implying Plek has an issue with PK having an ''A''?

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Fine, we'll revisit the subject when we have to let go of a young talent for lack of cap space.

Fo it to be mistake, there has to be a cost. We've yet to pay any cost over it so...

You're basically saying that because our team isn't great, it doesn't matter. With that reasoning going forward nothing matters since we don't have enough good players to be in the same situation as the hawks.

I have an idea. Instead, let's go ahead and assume that our management isn't incompetent (again) and that the team will get much better and that hard choices will likely have to be made at some point once we have more success. Hard choices which will be easier to make or even completely avoidable if we don't squander our current ample breathing room.

Hopefully our GM has more vision than you do.

There is a cost even if we don't see it. What if we can't sign a UFA that was interested in playing for us because we can't afford it? Same thing for trade discussions, what if the other team doesn't want to take salary back and we don't have the cap space to acquire the player we want?

We will never know what it actually cost us.

And this.

Just this summer we were rumored to be going for Vrbata. Perhaps we opted out because we didn't have enough cap room to make a better offer ?

Granted, some might say it's a good thing we didn't get him at that price.. but regardless. Replace Vrbata with another name.

 

[Lshap]

Pretty ironic, but I agree, the ship has sailed.

Back to your Plekanec comment though, not sure I understood. Are you implying Plek has an issue with PK having an ''A''?

I think it was on the CH24 video featuring Plekanec, where he was asked about Subban getting an "A" and his leadership abilities. His first response was to smile silently and look down. Then he rebooted with a politically-correct answer that PK will be good as a leader.

How meaningful is a hesitation and a smile? Maybe a little. Subban's boyish enthusiasm probably drives Vulcan Plekanec a bit crazy at times. I can't see them hanging out together. But I'd guess all the talk about rifts is overblown melodramatic crap. These guys are used to each other, for better or worse.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

That ship has sailed . Get over it and stop trying to get the last word in on everything. If there any argument you ever passed up... ever.. in history?

New information has come to our knowledge. It's perfectly reasonable to comment on it even if it makes someone's previous position look silly now, hell, even more so because of it. Time for some to realize how ridiculous they were with their fabrications about how all of our players would be bridged.

 

[Kriss E]

I think it was on the CH24 video featuring Plekanec, where he was asked about Subban getting an "A" and his leadership abilities. His first response was to smile silently and look down. Then he rebooted with a politically-correct answer that PK will be good as a leader.

How meaningful is a hesitation and a smile? Maybe a little. Subban's boyish enthusiasm probably drives Vulcan Plekanec a bit crazy at times. I can't see them hanging out together. But I'd guess all the talk about rifts is overblown melodramatic crap. These guys are used to each other, for better or worse.

President of the most powerful country in the world still had about 50% against him.
Being Captain doesn't mean you need to be unanimous.

Media have been demonizing PK for 4 years at every opportunity they get and people buy into it. His riffs with players, coaches, he yells at Max because he was fed a suicide pass and barely avoided being KOd like Eller was the game before, his locker room issues, he's unidimensional, his benchings, he's immature, and now the captaincy.
It just never ends with him.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

That's good news actually. Thinking every player needs to go on a bridge deal regardless of how advanced they are in their progression is not something I agreed with. Good on Bergevin, and I guess that exclude the "precedent" theory.

Something tells me that he knows that he bungled the Subban situation and after ownership stepped in to resolve it last month he knows he can't afford a similar screw up again.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

Something tells me that he knows that he bungled the Subban situation and after ownership stepped in to resolve it last month he knows he can't afford a similar screw up again.

Molson never intervened, by his own admission. Bergevin stated he was the only one to take hockey-related decisions. But somehow, this board will speculate that Molson fixed everything and saved the franchise from the EVIL Bergevin...

The bridge deal was something that will have helped the Habs way more than it hurt them when all is said and done.

 

[Agnostic]

Pretty ironic, but I agree, the ship has sailed.

Back to your Plekanec comment though, not sure I understood. Are you implying Plek has an issue with PK having an ''A''?

This is the video from the golf tournament. Audio is faint but it seems the question is "will PK make a good assistant" . Plekanec thinks hard, laughs, then reaches for a serious answer.

http://video.canadiens.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=630562&catid=66

 

[Cole Caulifield]

This is the video from the golf tournament. Audio is faint but it seems the question is "will PK make a good assistant" . Plekanec thinks hard, laughs, then reaches for a serious answer.

http://video.canadiens.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=630562&catid=66

Perhaps Plekanec should wonder why he's not captain right now.

He speaks english properly, he is smart, he's experienced, he is a better player than Gionta was. Why isn't he captain now ?

 

[Kriss E]

This is the video from the golf tournament. Audio is faint but it seems the question is "will PK make a good assistant" . Plekanec thinks hard, laughs, then reaches for a serious answer.

http://video.canadiens.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=630562&catid=66

That's pretty much the point I brought up in another post.
PK has consistently been demonized over the years in the media. It's been non-stop since he joined us and people buy into it.
We can take this video as an example. Maybe Plekanec had some funny story in mind, maybe he thought of a wise crack, but because there's been non-stop negative backlash around PK for sketchy reasons over the years, people are going to keep assuming the worst. That Plekanec doesn't think PK is going to make a good ''A'' captain despite him flat out saying that he will be, that he's already a leader and that he'll keep learning.

 

[Agnostic]

That's pretty much the point I brought up in another post.
PK has consistently been demonized over the years in the media. It's been non-stop since he joined us and people buy into it.
We can take this video as an example. Maybe Plekanec had some funny story in mind, maybe he thought of a wise crack, but because there's been non-stop negative backlash around PK for sketchy reasons over the years, people are going to keep assuming the worst. That Plekanec doesn't think PK is going to make a good ''A'' captain despite him flat out saying that he will be, that he's already a leader and that he'll keep learning.

Still an odd reaction.

 

[Gamimenos]

bingo.

and, at the time, some (both here and in the professional hockey circles) knew what he was/was going to be, and, as hindsight now empahtically supports, MB was wrong in his evaluation. can't be right all the time, just sucks to be wrong with the big ones...

shame that management was wrong, it happens… people make mistakes… not the end of the world, especially since MOlson stepped in and got the long term extension done.
although it is irritating to see MB continue to talk about how much subban has "matured" the past 2 years, as if repeating it over and over will somehow make it true… it isnt (beyond the natural maturation of anyone in their early 20's, and less so in this case given how mature the kid already was compared to most of his peers), MB made a mistake & doesn't seem to keen or able to admit it.. at least not publicly.

No I think it was the evaluation.

 

[Kriss E]

Still an odd reaction.

Why?
You're telling me that you've never joking said ''X'' friend sucks at whatever when someone asked you a question about it?? You never jokingly talk trash to your friends?
I do this all the time, doesn't mean I'm serious.
You're reading too much into this. The fact you're also putting more weight on this little smile and laugh rather than what he actually follows it up with proves my point.
You are completely dismissing the actual words of the player so you can feed into this ''PK has issues'' belief.