Bergevin on bridge deals

[Kriss E]

No I think it was the evaluation.

It was an evaluation, not the evaluation. He had to sign PK to a contract so obviously an evaluation was made then as well. According to his own words, he needed to see more from him, so it's clear he didn't view him as high as others did.

 

[Agnostic]

Why?
You're telling me that you've never joking said ''X'' friend sucks at whatever when someone asked you a question about it?? You never jokingly talk trash to your friends?
I do this all the time, doesn't mean I'm serious.
You're reading too much into this. The fact you're also putting more weight on this little smile and laugh rather than what he actually follows it up with proves my point.
You are completely dismissing the actual words of the player so you can feed into this ''PK has issues'' belief.

As usual you have told me my opinion before I've expressed it.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Still an odd reaction.

I think TP was laughing at the fact that with the media everything is always about PK and he was anticipating the question before it was asked. I don't see any signs here that Pleks thinks anything negatively about PK getting an "A".

 

[Lshap]

President of the most powerful country in the world still had about 50% against him.
Being Captain doesn't mean you need to be unanimous.

Media have been demonizing PK for 4 years at every opportunity they get and people buy into it. His riffs with players, coaches, he yells at Max because he was fed a suicide pass and barely avoided being KOd like Eller was the game before, his locker room issues, he's unidimensional, his benchings, he's immature, and now the captaincy.
It just never ends with him.

Subban might be the single most exciting, likeable Hab I've ever seen. Considering I've been watching since the late 60s, that should tell you how I feel about PK. No question the guy is a never ending lightning rod for attention, but it comes with the territory when you're that good, that smart, that personable, and play for the Ground-Zero of NHL franchises. Everything relating to him will be scrutinized - there's no way around it. But I think you're exaggerating a bit with the 'demonizing'. Some of it is, sure, but the bad press is vastly outweighed by the good. In fact, the more he's seen and heard, the more he's become liked by fans around the league.

 

[Kriss E]

As usual you have told me my opinion before I've expressed it.

So this wasn't your opinion??

Still an odd reaction.

So if that wasn't it, then what is your opinion? Btw, it's like the 3rd time I ask you what you're implying with regards to Plekanec's reaction.

 

[Kriss E]

I think TP was laughing at the fact that with the media everything is always about PK and he was anticipating the question before it was asked. I don't see any signs here that Pleks thinks anything negatively about PK getting an "A".

Maybe Subban and Plekanec even made a bet before hand on whether or not such a question will be asked to Plek. Who knows? But hey, PK is vilified in Mtl, so obviously people have a negative view. Can't blame them, it is Mtl and it's media after all.

 

[Kriss E]

Subban might be the single most exciting, likeable Hab I've ever seen. Considering I've been watching since the late 60s, that should tell you how I feel about PK. No question the guy is a never ending lightning rod for attention, but it comes with the territory when you're that good, that smart, that personable, and play for the Ground-Zero of NHL franchises. Everything relating to him will be scrutinized - there's no way around it. But I think you're exaggerating a bit with the 'demonizing'. Some of it is, sure, but the bad press is vastly outweighed by the good. In fact, the more he's seen and heard, the more he's become liked by fans around the league.

I'm not so sure man. You forgot about the racism tweets in Boston? Although I think he gained respect from others with the way he handled it.

Maybe there's a bit of exaggeration but the point stands. You know very well that if PK gets into a scrum in practice, it's going to be about him not being unanimous in the room. It will never be about the other guy, whoever that is.
PK's play is downplayed, his attitude is overplayed, his maturity is downplayed. At least from what I've heard, and it's been that way ever since he was here. Hopefully that'll change next year.

 

[habsfanatics*]

I'm not so sure man. You forgot about the racism tweets in Boston? Although I think he gained respect from others with the way he handled it.

Maybe there's a bit of exaggeration but the point stands. You know very well that if PK gets into a scrum in practice, it's going to be about him not being unanimous in the room. It will never be about the other guy, whoever that is.
PK's play is downplayed, his attitude is overplayed, his maturity is downplayed. At least from what I've heard, and it's been that way ever since he was here. Hopefully that'll change next year.

It's quite possible that Pleks was simply laughing at the absurdity of the question too. I think reading anything into it at all is silly.

Plek's had very kind words about PK. Not that that means much either, but there doesn't seem to be any hostility here of any kind.

 

[Shutdown]

Still an odd reaction.

Some times people really like to read in to things that are really just nothing at all.

He laughed, which looked like a joke inferring"well I don't know about him being assistant material", then gave his serious, honest answer.

 

[Miller Time]

In the real world when a boss doesn't really like or respect an employee, the employee usually gets the hint and moves on to somewhere where he is appreciated. Whether by transferring, getting a promotion, bidding or requesting a different job or going to work for a different company. PK has chosen a different path and that's his choice and we will see how it plays out or if things really change.

Whether MB is right or wrong, I don't think Hab's management will ever have anything more then a tolerance or at most an indifference towards PK. Changing of their mindset just doesn't seem like it's in the cards. Look at a lot of posters here, you can presents the facts, the truth over and over again, all to no avail.

Pro sports are completely different than the "real" world as far as employer/employee relationships go.

Draft alone makes that abundantly clear.

PK genuinely wants to be in montreal, and, I suspect, is smart enough to know that he's likely to be here far longer than his "bosses" (coach & GM), if he wants to AND can continue to play at his level.

What other business has that kind of reality?

In a way, Molson stepping in to get the long term deal, at record cap hit, proves how well PK played his own hand.

That he was willing to "play along" with managements poor evaluation, reflects his seemingly sincere desire to play here (which fits everything he's ever said... And fits his personality... He gets that winning here and being a star here is as close to being a Kobe/jeter/messi as u can get in hockey, and right or wrong, he seems to have the drive to be the big star at the "center of the universe" just like them).

It rubs many the wrong way, including our GM, and lucky for us that ownership (for whatever reason) decided it better to bet on him than on MB 's evaluation.

 

[yianik]

Not really interested in 5 year deals after ELC because if the player has 4 years until UFA status you are only buying one UFA year, not enough.

 

[Miller Time]

I always trust that there is more information to any player evaluation than what we see. As much as fans want to overlook a players down side, the GM and coaches see things and hear things. He's media trained and has developed a good image with fans but the attitude of his coach and fellow players at least gives reason to think there are layers to PK. To say he didn't need to mature is to ignore some of the past.

My immediate concern lies with the Captaincy and whether the team has correctly handled this. Markov was testy when asked about it. Plekanec laughed , paused, laughed, and finally capitulated to his media training when asked about PK having an "A". I think there is some underlying attitude that we can't see, I can't put a finger on it but I am not ready to think there isn't something there.

Maybe MB did make a mistake, but I am not yet ready to say PK is above a bridge, above having to prove himself inside the dressing room, and above having to work for the captaincy.

And despite this I have a signed PK jersey and consider him my favourite player.

RBC bet on PK before the bridge deal (and at same time they bet on yzerman -no brainer- and Stamkos -far safer bet for many reasons)...
Banks don't make that kind of bet lightly.

PK's maturity & character played a huge role in that. They saw it, other big pocket private entities saw it, first time GM MB & biased (to the degree that he regularly was unfairly critical of PK as a commentator) coach did not.

I think it fair to say they got it wrong... Hindsight pretty much precludes any other conclusion, lest anyone buy the "he matured a ton the past two years (which of course, coincides with "when we started working with him") bs narrative.


Sorry, don't buy it.

I trust Pat Quinn's opinion more than MT's....

 

[Miller Time]

Not really interested in 5 year deals after ELC because if the player has 4 years until UFA status you are only buying one UFA year, not enough.

That would fit, logically, if out of the bridge MB was ready to make the long term commitment. He wasn't, hence why it went to arbitration & took molsons intervention to make deal happen.

Personally, I don't agree with your approach when it comes to franchise type players.

 

[yianik]

That would fit, logically, if out of the bridge MB was ready to make the long term commitment. He wasn't, hence why it went to arbitration & took molsons intervention to make deal happen.

Personally, I don't agree with your approach when it comes to franchise type players.

My approach ? For a franchise player after ELC sign him to 8 , buying 4 UFA years.

 

[Miller Time]

My approach ? For a franchise player after ELC sign him to 8 , buying 4 UFA years.

sure, agree with that….

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Subban might be the single most exciting, likeable Hab I've ever seen. Considering I've been watching since the late 60s, that should tell you how I feel about PK. No question the guy is a never ending lightning rod for attention, but it comes with the territory when you're that good, that smart, that personable, and play for the Ground-Zero of NHL franchises. Everything relating to him will be scrutinized - there's no way around it. But I think you're exaggerating a bit with the 'demonizing'. Some of it is, sure, but the bad press is vastly outweighed by the good. In fact, the more he's seen and heard, the more he's become liked by fans around the league.

I'm kind of split on this one.

There's zero doubt that PK has taken a lot more criticism than is warranted. Dreger's been an idiot when it comes to this guy. We've heard him and others talk about how he was the equivalent of MDZ during the contract talks. We heard (on HNIC to a National audience) that there's not "a single guy in that room" who likes him... Seems like this guy can't do anything without garnering some kind of criticism.

At the same time though, I don't know what's going on in that room. I don't know how guys feel about him. I didn't like the scolding of Max on the bench personally and there's no doubt that PK has an ego. It obviously rubs some people the wrong way.

I love Subban and I'd love for him to be captain. But I wouldn't want the captaincy ordained upon him because management wants it to go to a star player. If he's going to become captain it should be because the players voted him as such. Because if the players vote him in as captain, there's not jack **** that anyone can say about it.

Also, PJ Stock can go suck donkey balls. Still can't believe that idiot has a job other than hawking depends.

 

[Andrei79]

President of the most powerful country in the world still had about 50% against him.
Being Captain doesn't mean you need to be unanimous.

How many captains have you seen have this many altercations with his teammates in practice? How many is he at now, 6 or 7. How do you feel that matches up to guys like Toews? Do you feel your president example is an apt comparison in any way in this case?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

How many captains have you seen have this many altercations with his teammates in practice? How many is he at now, 6 or 7. How do you feel that matches up to guys like Toews? Do you feel your president example is an apt comparison in any way in this case?

How many teams have the scrutiny of the Montreal Canadiens? If fights happen in practice with the Blue Jackets anyone even report it? Would anyone even know?

As for PK, I don't remember him getting into 6 or 7 fights...

 

[Kriss E]

How many captains have you seen have this many altercations with his teammates in practice? How many is he at now, 6 or 7. How do you feel that matches up to guys like Toews? Do you feel your president example is an apt comparison in any way in this case?

Not sure what 7 altercations you saw, I can only think of 2. Maybe 3 but not even sure.
In any event, don't you think it's a lot more relevant to know why those altercations happened?
Is it because he was practicing too rough and it rubbed the veterans the wrong way? Is it because he was practicing like he was playing and trash talking whoever he was going up against? Or is it because he's this evil immature monster?
People assume the worst. Always. It's sad really.

As for your Toews example:


So you see, even the great Jo Toews gets into heated arguments with teammates on the bench, and that's during a game no less.
I can't find videos but don't you remember Toews also completely losing it in a game during the POs where he took 3 stupid penalties where Seabrook had to go talk to him in the penalty box to cool him off??

What about Koivu? One very respected captain in the nhl. He got into altercations in practice. So?

This altercation garbage is one seriously lame excuse.

 

[Kriss E]

I didn't like the scolding of Max on the bench personally and there's no doubt that PK has an ego. It obviously rubs some people the wrong way.

MaxPac absolutely needed to be told to wake the f--k up. The game before, Diaz served Eller a suicide pass that ended in him leaving in a stretcher.
MaxPac the next game gives PK a suicide pass, a stupid one, and PK avoids the worst thanks to his fast reaction and good vision.
So ya, he had every right to give Max an earful. I would have done the same, and no, it doesn't have to be behind the curtains.

I also bet that if a Captain did this, say Toews, it would be applauded.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

MaxPac absolutely needed to be told to wake the f--k up. The game before, Diaz served Eller a suicide pass that ended in him leaving in a stretcher.
MaxPac the next game gives PK a suicide pass, a stupid one, and PK avoids the worst thanks to his fast reaction and good vision.
So ya, he had every right to give Max an earful. I would have done the same, and no, it doesn't have to be behind the curtains.

I also bet that if a Captain did this, say Toews, it would be applauded.

I didn't like seeing a player scolded on the bench like that. PK lost his cool. I wouldn't applaud anyone for this.

 

[VL55]

You're basically saying that because our team isn't great, it doesn't matter. With that reasoning going forward nothing matters since we don't have enough good players to be in the same situation as the hawks.

I have an idea. Instead, let's go ahead and assume that our management isn't incompetent (again) and that the team will get much better and that hard choices will likely have to be made at some point once we have more success. Hard choices which will be easier to make or even completely avoidable if we don't squander our current ample breathing room.

Hopefully our GM has more vision than you do.

No, I'm just saying that we need more hindsight to judge the situation. And you are saying you like overreacting.

The way I see it, if PK had been signed for a 5 years deal 2 years ago, then his cap hit starting 2 years ago and projecting 8 years in the future would have been something like this (say an hypothetical 5M X 5y followed by 11M for 5+y when UFA):

5 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 5 / 11 / 11 / 11 / 11 / 11

vs what happened

3 / 3 / 9 / 9 / 9 / 9 / 9 / 9 / 9 / 9

In that scenario, over that period of 10 years, PK's cap hit would have (will) end up higher only 3 time out of 10, and that's for the next 3 years.

Additional cap room would have been useful for the next three years, but the additional cap room was useful last two years (Vanek probably does not happen otherwise) and will be useful three years from now.

Personnally, I don't see the big deal but time will show if somehow these 3 years of higher cap will be so much more critical than all the others of lower cap. It is human nature to believe the most critical years are always the next few years. Bet you three years from now people will think the same thing and be happy PK is signed long term and not turning UFA.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

I didn't like seeing a player scolded on the bench like that. PK lost his cool. I wouldn't applaud anyone for this.

It happens more often than not.

The optics are iffy but these are competitors whose competitive spirit got them to the NHL and to the NHL playoffs. They're not going to enjoy losing and they will blow up. Most fans should be aware of this reality, there will be intensities between players.

 

[Miller Time]

It happens more often than not.

The optics are iffy but these are competitors whose competitive spirit got them to the NHL and to the NHL playoffs. They're not going to enjoy losing and they will blow up. Most fans should be aware of this reality, there will be intensities between players.

yup

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000394812/Manning-yells-at-Julius-Thomas


obviously losing your cool at a teammate over nothing or frequently, would be more a sign of a bad temper than of leadership….

but from time to time, a little bit of over-the-top emotion is called for/warranted, and effective.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It happens more often than not.

The optics are iffy but these are competitors whose competitive spirit got them to the NHL and to the NHL playoffs. They're not going to enjoy losing and they will blow up. Most fans should be aware of this reality, there will be intensities between players.

I get that.

I still didn't like it though.