Bergevin Discussion Part VI [Mod Warning Posts #450, #906]

[Ihatekessel]

Here's the short of it:

Dallas trades Trevor Daley and Ryan Garbutt for Patrick Sharp and Stephen Johns.
Dallas replaces Daley with Oduya who is a better defenseman.

Dallas upgraded Daley, gave away a 4th line player and ended up with a top 6 forward and a A level defense prospect.

That's just a masterful job.

Totally Agree!

 

[417]

Here's the short of it:

Dallas trades Trevor Daley and Ryan Garbutt for Patrick Sharp and Stephen Johns.
Dallas replaces Daley with Oduya who is a better defenseman.

Dallas upgraded Daley, gave away a 4th line player and ended up with a top 6 forward and a A level defense prospect.

That's just a masterful job.

Let's see how Oduya performs in Dallas and Daley in Chicago

 

[waffledave]

Wouldn't be surprised to see him pass 40 points this year, a step up from PAP or Weise.

I'm not even sure he gets 40 points in his entire career as a Hab.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

I don't know why you keep saying everyone is LOLing at Dallas for Spezza and Sharp.

Here you go:

What about ~$24 million (1/3 of the cap !) on Spezza, Sharp, Lehtonen, and Niemi?

EDIT: Should I add Hemsky?

Something tells me the Chicago Blackhawks will be a Cup Contender again next year, while the Dallas Stars will continue to fight to get into the playoffs

But yeah...sure...It's the Stars who are benefitting here

Imagine the if Bergevin had over $13 million tied up in old men Spezza and Sharp.

Exactly. I'd much prefer this than overspend for aging top 6 players. The UFA market has been terrible this year (we probably signed one of the top 2 pending UFAs in Petry), so rushing a trade is definitely not the right move. We aren't a team like Dallas who is trying to win within the next two years.

Yeah, I wouldn't be a fan if the Habs had that kind of money locked up in those types of players. Their goalies need a huge bounce-back season, and Sharp needs to prove that he is not on the decline.

They won the Sharp trade, I just think it was a bit of a backwards move for an expensive, declining player. I would never want someone like Sharp on the Habs, as I don't think it's the direction this team needs to go in.

Fair enough.

As for Vanek, I'd rather have him dominate down the stretch for cheap (and yes, he slumped late in the playoffs, I don't see what that has to do with his great play down the stretch...?) as a rental than actually have to retain Sharp for two more years with an NMC when he is declining in every way.

We played 17 games in the POs, sorry, but no way did Vanek deserve to be on the 4th line, no matter how bad he was "slumping" in 17 whole games. I also wonder where this "earn it" mentality was during this years' playoffs, when our offense and PP were a laughing stock and yet the same ol' lines were rolled again and again and again with no demotions in sight.

I'd rather win a trade for a very cheap top 6 winger with size and upside in Kassian than actually give up assets for someone who could be a liability on our team sooner rather than later.

Again, how is Kassian a guaranteed Top 6 winger? What has he done, at all, to earn that designation? You really need to elaborate on this statement.

There are some cases where trading for potential is better than trading for established players, especially when they're aging, overly expensive, and their stats are on the decline.

Starting in 2009, he's had seasons of 66 pts in 82 games, 71 pts in 74 games, 69 pts in 74 games, 20 pts in 28 games, 78 pts in 82 games, and 43 pts in 68 games. He's also won 3 Cups, experience he brings to his new team.

But no, 1 season out of 6 and he's declining, while Kassian is full of untapped Top 6 potential based on...what?

Again, you're twisting words when you say Kassian has failed to live up to his potential on two teams. The guy played 27 GAMES with the Sabres as a rookie, and you're actually complaining he didn't live up to his potential there?

Collberg played 0 games for us and he's been called a bust. Sekac played 50 games for us and he's been labelled a bust. Really, why do these 27 games not count?

I REALLY need you to justify this, because that's the most ridiculous thing I've read all day and it makes absolutely no sense. He's also been plagued with injuries, to the point that he has played only 5 MORE NHL GAMES than Alex Galchenyuk, a player 3 years younger than him.

"Plagued with injuries"...yeah, that does sound like an extremely promising asset we got there...you think his history of injury might be playing a factor in why teams are willing to trade him away and why I see him as a far-from-certain project?

If we are going to give Chuckie a chance to develop, we certainly have to give Kassian a chance as well.

Sorry, but if we're gonna give Kassian the same "chance" we've been giving Chucky, I'm even less optimistic!

Also, what has Kassian done to be compared to Galchenyuk?

Everything you have said about Kassian leads me to believe you know absolutely nothing about him.

I was about to say the exact same thing.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

And then got rid of him for what? Again, Kassian most certainly has potential, but he's not anywhere close to what MB fans are making him out to be.

I am sorry. Did i mentionned the Canucks in my post? Stop raising points i did not defend.

I only said this: buffalo did not rid itself of Kassian. Canucks acquired him, and paid good value for him. So maybe he disapointed with them, but he sure as hell didnt disapointed with Buffalo.

Maybe Vancouver wasn't a good team environment for Kassian. He is sure as hell a low-risk high reward bet. He cost us Prust.

Prust

Tell me again what is the risk

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

It's not any more or any less important than other areas of managing a team...i.e. drafting/development, pro player procurement, etc.

What is your point? The topic is the importance of cap space is it not?

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

Who's the good prospect we gave up? Colberg? com'on....

No worse than the prospects people believe will filling the top 6. I notice a terrible trend. Some habs fans try their best to devalue whoever we gave up in a trade. But inflate the value of who we get in return. Look how people are talking about kassian. Lmao.

GM can't sign UFA's. Stresses character and couldn't make a trade for a core top 6 player to save his life but tosses aside a good prospect and a high pick for a lazy player everyone knew wouldn't re-sign. Master full Bergie!

 

[PricePkPatch*]

No worse than the prospects people believe will filling the top 6. I notice a terrible trend. Some habs fans try their best to devalue whoever we gave up in a trade. But inflate the value of who we get in return. Look how people are talking about kassian. Lmao.

GM can't sign UFA's. Stresses character and couldn't make a trade for a core top 6 player to save his life but tosses aside a good prospect and a high pick for a lazy player everyone knew wouldn't re-sign. Master full Bergie!

What about Kassian?

Good look at his thread. Recent studies prove he actually have pretty strong numbers. Its more than possible his underwhelming overall results were the results of trying to fit him as a square peg in a round hole.

Think of a Uber-Weise. Someone that has been demanded to be a grinder while being naturally more inclined toward more finesse

 

[417]

What is your point? The topic is the importance of cap space is it not?

Well I originally responded to your thread where you called me out, not by name, but considering my posting history on the topic, I assumed you were talking to me, apologies if that assumption is wrong.

The comment was "but cap space isn't important according to some people".

My point is and always has been, that fans overstate the importance of cap space.

 

[Nynja*]

I am sorry. Did i mentionned the Canucks in my post? Stop raising points i did not defend.

I only said this: buffalo did not rid itself of Kassian. Canucks acquired him, and paid good value for him. So maybe he disapointed with them, but he sure as hell didnt disapointed with Buffalo.

Maybe Vancouver wasn't a good team environment for Kassian. He is sure as hell a low-risk high reward bet. He cost us Prust.

Prust

Tell me again what is the risk

Dont forget we also got a 5th out of that trade.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

People shouldn't see the Kassian acquisition as a final piece. It's just being negative to be negative.

Going into the playoffs for 2016 we'll have kassian and Hudon, Andrighetto, McCarron, Scherbak, etc... pushing at the door.

Not to mention trade deadline acquisitions.

It's entirely possible the top 6/9 looks better as the season goes on. Even if Kassian should bust completely(I think he'll be inconsistent but not a complete bust) there will be younger and more talented players knocking on the door anyway. Add in the obvious potential for a trade as the season goes on and there's plenty of reason to believe things can be addressed. It's not like MB has shied away from deadline deals. One might argue he got the best fish available 2 years in a row.

 

[JohnLennon]

Again, how is Kassian a guaranteed Top 6 winger? What has he done, at all, to earn that designation? You really need to elaborate on this statement.

Starting in 2009, he's had seasons of 66 pts in 82 games, 71 pts in 74 games, 69 pts in 74 games, 20 pts in 28 games, 78 pts in 82 games, and 43 pts in 68 games. He's also won 3 Cups, experience he brings to his new team.

But no, 1 season out of 6 and he's declining, while Kassian is full of untapped Top 6 potential based on...what?

Collberg played 0 games for us and he's been called a bust. Sekac played 50 games for us and he's been labelled a bust. Really, why do these 27 games not count?

"Plagued with injuries"...yeah, that does sound like an extremely promising asset we got there...you think his history of injury might be playing a factor in why teams are willing to trade him away and why I see him as a far-from-certain project?



Sorry, but if we're gonna give Kassian the same "chance" we've been giving Chucky, I'm even less optimistic!

Also, what has Kassian done to be compared to Galchenyuk?

Kassian isn't a guaranteed top 6 winger, but he is probably going to be deployed like one and he does have the skill to be one right now. He actually currently has the skill to be a top 6 winger, it's just inconsistency and injuries that have plagued him.

As for Patrick Sharp, you went as far back as 6 years to claim why he is good. Everyone knows Patrick Sharp is a good player. But the most important season is the most recent season he played, and that has been his worst season in almost a decade. Even Hawks fans were saying they were disappointed in his season this year, and as he gets older, there really isn't much room for improvement, is there? Add in a 5.9M dollar contract, and his age, declining stats, and cap hit are all very unappetizing. I personally would rather Kassian, who costed us nothing and gained us a draft pick, whose cap hit is barely existant, and give him a chance in the top 6 instead of handicapping our team with another big cap hit in Sharp.

Man, for Kassian, 27 games in his first season is nothing to go off of. Collberg isn't a bust, but he is 21 and his NHL career doesn't look promising. Some have written him off, some haven't, but it isn't at all comparable because Kassian actually played 27 games at 20 years old. Sekac played double the games that Kassian played, and he was 23, after having already played pro hockey. It's not even comparable. You saying Kassian "couldn't meet his potential" at 20 years old, playing 27 games as a rookie in his first stint as a pro, is just not genuine. Your point makes no sense. Complaining about his 27 game callup in Buffalo? Come on, man.

His injury history is clearly not a good thing, and is probably part of the reason he got traded, along with his inconsistency. Apparently though, management believes he is past his injury issues. All we can do is be hopeful they are right, because he has the skill to be an impact player today, and continue to improve tomorrow. Would you rather have traded for Sharp or for Kassian, and why?

 

[Dagenais Bar Down*]

Would you rather have traded for Sharp or for Kassian, and why?

We got Kassian in exchange for a finished Prust, so theoretically we could easily have had both. Except we don't have anything that compares to Daley's speed.

 

[Lshap]

People shouldn't see the Kassian acquisition as a final piece. It's just being negative to be negative.

Going into the playoffs for 2016 we'll have kassian and Hudon, Andrighetto, McCarron, Scherbak, etc... pushing at the door.

Not to mention trade deadline acquisitions.

It's entirely possible the top 6/9 looks better as the season goes on. Even if Kassian should bust completely(I think he'll be inconsistent but not a complete bust) there will be younger and more talented players knocking on the door anyway. Add in the obvious potential for a trade as the season goes on and there's plenty of reason to believe things can be addressed. It's not like MB has shied away from deadline deals. One might argue he got the best fish available 2 years in a row.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Actually... I have said it myself. Anyway, I agree completely. Next season's roster is a seven month job. We've used 15 days of it. Perspective...

 

[optimus2861]

People shouldn't see the Kassian acquisition as a final piece. It's just being negative to be negative.

Going into the playoffs for 2016 we'll have kassian and Hudon, Andrighetto, McCarron, Scherbak, etc... pushing at the door.

I think this is incredibly, probably even foolishly, optimistic. I'd be outright shocked if more than one of those four players made the team out of camp; doubly so if Therrien doesn't very quickly bury them on the 3rd/4th lines and not give them offensive opportunities to succeed.

Does nobody remember what Therrien did to Andrighetto for pete's sake? 3 points, 3 games, 4th line for you! Banished to Hamilton, never recalled again. Why would we expect Hudon to get treated any better? Why would we expect Therrien to give a guy fresh out of major junior much leash? If they don't play 'da system' right away, to Therrien's liking, into the doghouse they go, and they could be a long, long time getting out of it. If ever.

 

[Ihatekessel]

I think this is incredibly, probably even foolishly, optimistic. I'd be outright shocked if more than one of those four players made the team out of camp; doubly so if Therrien doesn't very quickly bury them on the 3rd/4th lines and not give them offensive opportunities to succeed.

Does nobody remember what Therrien did to Andrighetto for pete's sake? 3 points, 3 games, 4th line for you! Banished to Hamilton, never recalled again. Why would we expect Hudon to get treated any better? Why would we expect Therrien to give a guy fresh out of major junior much leash? If they don't play 'da system' right away, to Therrien's liking, into the doghouse they go, and they could be a long, long time getting out of it. If ever.

Just ask Lars Eller

 

[Ihatekessel]

Kassian isn't a guaranteed top 6 winger, but he is probably going to be deployed like one and he does have the skill to be one right now. He actually currently has the skill to be a top 6 winger, it's just inconsistency and injuries that have plagued him.

As for Patrick Sharp, you went as far back as 6 years to claim why he is good. Everyone knows Patrick Sharp is a good player. But the most important season is the most recent season he played, and that has been his worst season in almost a decade. Even Hawks fans were saying they were disappointed in his season this year, and as he gets older, there really isn't much room for improvement, is there? Add in a 5.9M dollar contract, and his age, declining stats, and cap hit are all very unappetizing. I personally would rather Kassian, who costed us nothing and gained us a draft pick, whose cap hit is barely existant, and give him a chance in the top 6 instead of handicapping our team with another big cap hit in Sharp.

Man, for Kassian, 27 games in his first season is nothing to go off of. Collberg isn't a bust, but he is 21 and his NHL career doesn't look promising. Some have written him off, some haven't, but it isn't at all comparable because Kassian actually played 27 games at 20 years old. Sekac played double the games that Kassian played, and he was 23, after having already played pro hockey. It's not even comparable. You saying Kassian "couldn't meet his potential" at 20 years old, playing 27 games as a rookie in his first stint as a pro, is just not genuine. Your point makes no sense. Complaining about his 27 game callup in Buffalo? Come on, man.

His injury history is clearly not a good thing, and is probably part of the reason he got traded, along with his inconsistency. Apparently though, management believes he is past his injury issues. All we can do is be hopeful they are right, because he has the skill to be an impact player today, and continue to improve tomorrow. Would you rather have traded for Sharp or for Kassian, and why?

But, does he have the desire to fulfill his promise? By his own admission, he never gave 100% in Vancouver. Now is this just an aberration or is this just who he is?

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/...it-all-for-habs-as-you-grow-older-you-mature/

 

[habalifeok]

I think this is incredibly, probably even foolishly, optimistic. I'd be outright shocked if more than one of those four players made the team out of camp; doubly so if Therrien doesn't very quickly bury them on the 3rd/4th lines and not give them offensive opportunities to succeed.

Does nobody remember what Therrien did to Andrighetto for pete's sake? 3 points, 3 games, 4th line for you! Banished to Hamilton, never recalled again. Why would we expect Hudon to get treated any better? Why would we expect Therrien to give a guy fresh out of major junior much leash? If they don't play 'da system' right away, to Therrien's liking, into the doghouse they go, and they could be a long, long time getting out of it. If ever.

Be prepared to be shocked. One or more of Andrighetto, Hudon or Carr could make the Habs . Kassian could make enough of an impact. With Pacioretty possibly not ready there should be lots of chances to experiment in the early going. The power play could work a little better. We don't need the temporary adrenalin rush a big trade offers. We need patience and an improvement in the offensive areas. Therrien has nearly reached his shelf life and he himself could easily be buried. He has already received his bonus for the lofty heights the Habs have reached during regular season. His bonus of course is the measly salary he would receive after getting fired.

 

[Lshap]

I think this is incredibly, probably even foolishly, optimistic. I'd be outright shocked if more than one of those four players made the team out of camp; doubly so if Therrien doesn't very quickly bury them on the 3rd/4th lines and not give them offensive opportunities to succeed.

Does nobody remember what Therrien did to Andrighetto for pete's sake? 3 points, 3 games, 4th line for you! Banished to Hamilton, never recalled again. Why would we expect Hudon to get treated any better? Why would we expect Therrien to give a guy fresh out of major junior much leash? If they don't play 'da system' right away, to Therrien's liking, into the doghouse they go, and they could be a long, long time getting out of it. If ever.

He described the prospects as "Pushing at the door", as in getting closer, not all of them making the team.

And despite the melodrama in your post, just last season we saw no less than three prospects, Beaulieu, Pateryn, and De la Rose, join the roster under Therrien. This year will be no different -- expect a few prospects called up and at least one to make the team.

 

[Dagenais Bar Down*]

We got Kassian for PRUST, how can anyone hate that we got him? Maybe he will be good, maybe we will end up putting him on waivers lol, who cares?

 

[WeThreeKings]

We got Kassian for PRUST, how can anyone hate that we got him? Maybe he will be good, maybe we will end up putting him on waivers lol, who cares?

No one hates that we got Kassian..

We hate that we need a top 6 forward, Kassian/DSP aren't one.. and nothing is being done about it.

Desharnais on this team is an issue.
Galchenyuk not at center is an issue.
Wingers in the top 6 is an issue.
Therrien and his staff is an issue.
Lefebvre and his staff is an issue.

Not one of those things have been addressed and all we've heard up to date is the indication that he has 0 interest/desire/belief in those things needing to change. That's head in the sand.

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

He described the prospects as "Pushing at the door", as in getting closer, not all of them making the team.

And despite the melodrama in your post, just last season we saw no less than three prospects, Beaulieu, Pateryn, and De la Rose, join the roster under Therrien. This year will be no different -- expect a few prospects called up and at least one to make the team.

The difference is none of those guys is competing with favorite son DD for a roster spot. The skill players, and especially the small skill players like Ghetto, are in direct competition with DD (because the team will carry only so many small guys). This coach views his job as a mandate to win while at the same time promoting his favorites. Not to win fullstop. This is why DD has to go, or that coach has to go, or at least an influential assistant coach has to be found to change the rampant favoritism. This is also why Ghetto was treated so shabbily, and why excuses were made up to take Galchenyuk away from 1C. This pattern will continue with this coach as long as he has his favorite toys to play with.

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

No one hates that we got Kassian..

We hate that we need a top 6 forward, Kassian/DSP aren't one.. and nothing is being done about it.

Desharnais on this team is an issue.
Galchenyuk not at center is an issue.
Wingers in the top 6 is an issue.
Therrien and his staff is an issue.
Lefebvre and his staff is an issue.

Not one of those things have been addressed and all we've heard up to date is the indication that he has 0 interest/desire/belief in those things needing to change. That's head in the sand.

I agree with you. And I resent that the state of affairs makes us sounds like a broken record, while the team is squandering Price and Subban's best years.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

If I remember correctly we had Gauthier and one assistant GM in Carriere.

When we lost Gauthier it was like we were down an assistant GM and a GM.

We hired Dudley immediately and other guys as well.

I don't think it's an excuse either but few people were familiar with the roster at high level positions.

Which is a failure on Bergevin's part. He could have brought someone in like Jacques Martin as a consultant to help familiarize himself with the roster.

 

[Corncob]

Let's see how Oduya performs in Dallas and Daley in Chicago

Yeah this.

I expect Daley to look a much better player playing 20 mins/game sheltered behind Keith and Seabrook and Oduya to look less good not doing the same.

In a few months everyone will be mystified at how Daley turned into a better hockey player over the summer and Oduya suddenly started to suck....