BCHL adding 5 Alberta teams

[Bubbles]

Yes, if they can garner the necessary community support, if not then well....

I would love for someone to provide a break even point for revenue and expenses for your typical Junor A franchise that provides for equipment, travel and billeting (in short, all costs covered to play). I would imagine that such costs would have to run close to 350K per year. Throw in coaches and GM salaries and that figure most likely rises to 550k per annum (and I'm being really conservative here).

A CHL franchise's expense is easily double that as coaches are paid far more and they are required to pay all post secondary educational expenses.

This is anecdotal, but here's what I can add.

I just went to a Surrey Eagles game Saturday night. They are the best team in the BCHL this year and are now in the 2nd round of the playoffs. You would think that more fans would show up, right?

Nope, I checked the attendance, it was 796. There are 1180 seats according to their specs. For context, there was no NHL or WHL games that night. There are actually several local kids on the team so you would think they would draw in more people.

Say let's say they draw 300 more a night, at $20 a ticket, that's $6000 more income. Not to mention the food/merch income.

Surrey also has a population of more than 500,000, but in reality the Eagles only draw from S. Surrey.

I do wonder how they're going to do financially with the increased costs of travel next year.

 

[Corso]

This is anecdotal, but here's what I can add.

I just went to a Surrey Eagles game Saturday night. They are the best team in the BCHL this year and are now in the 2nd round of the playoffs. You would think that more fans would show up, right?

Nope, I checked the attendance, it was 796. There are 1180 seats according to their specs. For context, there was no NHL or WHL games that night. There are actually several local kids on the team so you would think they would draw in more people.

Say let's say they draw 300 more a night, at $20 a ticket, that's $6000 more income. Not to mention the food/merch income.

Surrey also has a population of more than 500,000, but in reality the Eagles only draw from S. Surrey.

I do wonder how they're going to do financially with the increased costs of travel next year.

I just don't see how a team that averages less than 1000 fans a game will be able to cover all costs incurred in a free to play league. No question the BCHL will be losing a few more teams.

 

[Bubbles]

I just don't see how a team that averages less than 1000 fans a game will be able to cover all costs incurred in a free to play league. No question the BCHL will be losing a few more teams.

Langley might try it for one year but I don't see them lasting at all, they draw about half of the average attendance.

Some rumours of PG leaving too.

Sherwood Park is pretty small too but just landed Noah Kosick so who knows.

 

[MeHateHe]

PG re-committed to the BCHL a week ago. Unrelated, I’m sure but their showhome lottery is on pace to sell out again.

Spruce Kings quash talk of BCHL exit, report attendance boost despite losing season

PRINCE GEORGE -- The Prince George Spruce Kings said any sort of online chatter related to the club departing ...

ckpgtoday.ca

 

[cg98]

Langley might try it for one year but I don't see them lasting at all, they draw about half of the average attendance.

Some rumours of PG leaving too.

Sherwood Park is pretty small too but just landed Noah Kosick so who knows.

Sherwood Park is getting a new arena and was one of the AJHL powerhouses. No chance they step out of the BCHL anytime soon

 

[Corso]

PG re-committed to the BCHL a week ago. Unrelated, I’m sure but their showhome lottery is on pace to sell out again.

Spruce Kings quash talk of BCHL exit, report attendance boost despite losing season

PRINCE GEORGE -- The Prince George Spruce Kings said any sort of online chatter related to the club departing ...

ckpgtoday.ca

Perhaps over a 1000 paying fans is the magic number needed for survival? If so then Coquitlam, Powell River and Langley could be the next candidates for contraction.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Local sponsorships, Media Rights (FloSports) factor in as well.

 

[Yukon Joe]

When trying to figure out BCHL finances - to what extent are some/all of the teams "pay to play" where the kids themselves need to pay fees?

 

[Corso]

When trying to figure out BCHL finances - to what extent are some/all of the teams "pay to play" where the kids themselves need to pay fees?

The BCHL stated that they want all franchises to be free to play by the 25-26 season.

The real question is how much does each franchise need to generate in order to cover all costs.

 

[MeHateHe]

Perhaps over a 1000 paying fans is the magic number needed for survival? If so then Coquitlam, Powell River and Langley could be the next candidates for contraction.

As others have suggested, this is only partly driven by economics, or at least it seems to be driven by economics for only some of the teams.

This notion of an independent league has been floating around the BCHL for at least 20 years. I remember hearing about it when I was associated with the league in the early 2000s, and at least then, it was driven by clubs like Penticton, Salmon Arm, Vernon, Nanaimo, Victoria, Chilliwack and, surprisingly, Surrey. These were the teams that had been the most successful on the ice at the time, and, with the exception of Surrey, also at the gate.

There was scuttlebut then about having one so-called 'super league' with those big clubs splitting off from the minnows. Talk was that those clubs hated being associated with teams like Merritt - with its tiny rink - and hated having to make the trips to Prince George, who (from the standpoint of some teams) was only ever allowed into the league as a way to drive a stake into the heart of the old Rocky Mountain Junior Hockey League. And yeah, the scuttlebutt then was that they could attract a few teams from Alberta and make this league that would compete with the USHL for high profile players who didn't want to play major junior.

So yeah, this isn't just economics, although ultimately the elite teams will almost certainly be the richest teams. And it's the richest teams who have been pushing for this for some time, so the loss of Merritt or whoever else isn't going to be a real deterrent for the short term.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Perhaps over a 1000 paying fans is the magic number needed for survival? If so then Coquitlam, Powell River and Langley could be the next candidates for contraction.

You don't need any paying fans when parents are willing to make regular eTransfers for pay to play. The two Winnipeg MJHL teams rarely ever crack 100 fans at the gate, and I've never known them to ever really try attracting a crowd. And I guess they don't have to as long as the parental payments clear.

Each large Western Canadian city can probably float several teams like these.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

You don't need any paying fans when parents are willing to make regular eTransfers for pay to play. The two Winnipeg MJHL teams rarely ever crack 100 fans at the gate, and I've never known them to ever really try attracting a crowd. And I guess they don't have to as long as the parental payments clear.

Each large Western Canadian city can probably float several teams like these.

It really sucks for any player who wants to go the MJHL route, but is drafted by one of those Winnipeg teams.

And you'd think those parents would realize it's kind of a road to nowhere. The players finding success at the next level are mostly from the strong rural programs from what I can tell.

 

[jetsmooseice]

It really sucks for any player who wants to go the MJHL route, but is drafted by one of those Winnipeg teams.

And you'd think those parents would realize it's kind of a road to nowhere. The players finding success at the next level are mostly from the strong rural programs from what I can tell.

Realistically going pro from the MJHL is like winning the lottery. It happens, but it's rare. You see a lot of recruitment announcements on the MJHL website but it's usually to some DIII school no one here has ever heard of. Once in a while you get someone who goes DI and gets drafted, or that kid from Virden who got a scholarship to Princeton, but that is maybe like one guy a season.

I mean, playing the MJ is good in its own right, it doesn't need to be justified as a route to the next level... but is it really worth shelling out $20K or whatever a year? I'm not so sure.

You going to the game tonight?

 

[Bubbles]

Sherwood Park is getting a new arena and was one of the AJHL powerhouses. No chance they step out of the BCHL anytime soon

That's good to hear. I see that they are setting for a 2026 opening. A lot can happen in that time but looks for hockey in SP.

Perhaps over a 1000 paying fans is the magic number needed for survival? If so then Coquitlam, Powell River and Langley could be the next candidates for contraction.

Possibly. I think really Langley is the outlier, they draw less than half of even the bottom dwelling teams.

 

[joestevens29]

Realistically going pro from the MJHL is like winning the lottery. It happens, but it's rare. You see a lot of recruitment announcements on the MJHL website but it's usually to some DIII school no one here has ever heard of. Once in a while you get someone who goes DI and gets drafted, or that kid from Virden who got a scholarship to Princeton, but that is maybe like one guy a season.

I mean, playing the MJ is good in its own right, it doesn't need to be justified as a route to the next level... but is it really worth shelling out $20K or whatever a year? I'm not so sure.

You going to the game tonight?

That seems like a pretty big waste of money IMO.

 

[Yukon Joe]

It really sucks for any player who wants to go the MJHL route, but is drafted by one of those Winnipeg teams.

And you'd think those parents would realize it's kind of a road to nowhere. The players finding success at the next level are mostly from the strong rural programs from what I can tell.

So how does that work anyways? You're drafted by, I dunno, the Winnipeg Blues. The Blues tell you you need to pay $20k to play. You refuse. Do you just get cut? Or does the team hold your rights and you have to go back to U18?

Or is it that players who are drafted don't have to pay, but anyone just trying out who makes the team does?

As for a "road to nowhere"... I always say I don't want to judge parents. That kid, for the rest of their life, will be able to say they were a MJHL player. That means something. It does give you a kind of (very expensive) lottery ticket to perhaps a great NCAA education. But yes - at the numbers being thrown around you'd be much better off to use that money to go get an education at U of W / U of M.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

So how does that work anyways? You're drafted by, I dunno, the Winnipeg Blues. The Blues tell you you need to pay $20k to play. You refuse. Do you just get cut? Or does the team hold your rights and you have to go back to U18?

Or is it that players who are drafted don't have to pay, but anyone just trying out who makes the team does?

As for a "road to nowhere"... I always say I don't want to judge parents. That kid, for the rest of their life, will be able to say they were a MJHL player. That means something. It does give you a kind of (very expensive) lottery ticket to perhaps a great NCAA education. But yes - at the numbers being thrown around you'd be much better off to use that money to go get an education at U of W / U of M.

If you're young, you could refuse to sign your letter of intent, and then convince another team to sign you eventually - that rule actually just changed this year: New MJHL player movement rules give more power to players.

As for the rules for the Freeze/Blues on what they charge players, I have not heard it from the horse's mouth - my impression is everyone has to pay.

If you look at the Freeze this year, it's mostly younger players - I think the average player would be better off playing outside of junior A rather than on the Freeze this year, but I could be wrong. I'm probably too cynical about such things.

And I guess that goes back to @jetsmooseice 's point. If you're there for the "MJHL experience" then playing in front of 50 people at the Iceplex, when high school games in the rink next to you get way more fans (High school is sub-Jr B in Manitoba), and you go play away games in Virden in front of 1,000 people, is that a proper Jr A experience?

I know it wouldn't be for me.

 

[jetsmooseice]

So how does that work anyways? You're drafted by, I dunno, the Winnipeg Blues. The Blues tell you you need to pay $20k to play. You refuse. Do you just get cut? Or does the team hold your rights and you have to go back to U18?

Or is it that players who are drafted don't have to pay, but anyone just trying out who makes the team does?

As for a "road to nowhere"... I always say I don't want to judge parents. That kid, for the rest of their life, will be able to say they were a MJHL player. That means something. It does give you a kind of (very expensive) lottery ticket to perhaps a great NCAA education. But yes - at the numbers being thrown around you'd be much better off to use that money to go get an education at U of W / U of M.

It does seem like a raw deal to get drafted to the Blues/Freeze. The small town teams get lots of fans showing up, corporate sponsors, etc. and you can play for free or close to it. Meanwhile the Blues probably give you nothing but a big invoice for mom and dad. They are pretty active trading kids around the league, maybe some of them rather would play elsewhere? Although having to go to Swan River or Wayway (if you aren't from there) probably presents some hardships of their own.

In terms of the value of being a MJHL player, I guess there is value to playing sports at a high level. But there aren't a ton of players who really launch big pro careers through the MJ. I mean, getting a scholarship to Salve Regina and then playing three years in the SPHL is something, but is it worth $80K or whatever to play four seasons with the league punching bag?

 

[Yukon Joe]

In terms of the value of being a MJHL player, I guess there is value to playing sports at a high level. But there aren't a ton of players who really launch big pro careers through the MJ. I mean, getting a scholarship to Salve Regina and then playing three years in the SPHL is something, but is it worth $80K or whatever to play four seasons with the league punching bag?

So I mean the way I can see it "justified" is not in terms that it'll bring you a pro career - but that the value of playing MJHL hockey itself is something. The huge majority of hockey players never make it to that level. You can forever hang a South Winnipeg Blues jersey (or whatever team) on your wall. If your parents have that kind of $$$ to pay for that kind of experience, then go for it.

And I guess that goes back to @jetsmooseice 's point. If you're there for the "MJHL experience" then playing in front of 50 people at the Iceplex, when high school games in the rink next to you get way more fans (High school is sub-Jr B in Manitoba), and you go play away games in Virden in front of 1,000 people, is that a proper Jr A experience?

I am originally from Winnipeg, so I know what high school hockey is (and isn't). Absolutely, if you don't think you're going anywhere professionally in hockey I'd much rather go play high school where it matters on a personal and school level, then it does in any hockey sense. I know back in the day my high school (St Paul's) really prided itself on its football and hockey teams for such a comparatively small school - but that yes Winnipeg high school hockey is really the end of the road for a hockey career for almost everyone involved.

I wish we had such a thing in Edmonton.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

So I mean the way I can see it "justified" is not in terms that it'll bring you a pro career - but that the value of playing MJHL hockey itself is something. The huge majority of hockey players never make it to that level. You can forever hang a South Winnipeg Blues jersey (or whatever team) on your wall. If your parents have that kind of $$$ to pay for that kind of experience, then go for it.



I am originally from Winnipeg, so I know what high school hockey is (and isn't). Absolutely, if you don't think you're going anywhere professionally in hockey I'd much rather go play high school where it matters on a personal and school level, then it does in any hockey sense. I know back in the day my high school (St Paul's) really prided itself on its football and hockey teams for such a comparatively small school - but that yes Winnipeg high school hockey is really the end of the road for a hockey career for almost everyone involved.

I wish we had such a thing in Edmonton.

haha - I guessed you knew, but I wanted to make it clear for anyone who is from the states, high school in Manitoba does not equal high school in the northern states.

Although the narrative might be changing a little bit as of late. I'm seeing some signs (Top Players moving from HS to "Jr B" teams for playoffs) the High School ranks are getting scouted a little bit more, and I think the quality of play went up a good bit last season.

I'd certainly rather play HS - but even U18 AA players are sitting and watching their friends play HS.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Some people just want to take sports as far as they are able to, without it having a deeper goal beyond that (just because everyone is someone else's farm team in the pyramid doesn't mean it has to be that way for players). It's as simple as competition and doing your best against whatever level of competition you can. Not everyone that played in [generic league] is viewing themselves as a failed NHL hopeful.

 

[WarriorofTime]

haha - I guessed you knew, but I wanted to make it clear for anyone who is from the states, high school in Manitoba does not equal high school in the northern states.

Outside of Prep Schools and Minnesota (with teams that vary based on where they are, how big, etc. similar as in basketball/football) that sub-Junior anything describes it in the States as well. Even with the bad Junior leagues, it's mostly kids staying in AAA through high school and then jumping to one of those other Junior leagues when they're 18, 19 and 20.

 

[jetsmooseice]

So I mean the way I can see it "justified" is not in terms that it'll bring you a pro career - but that the value of playing MJHL hockey itself is something. The huge majority of hockey players never make it to that level. You can forever hang a South Winnipeg Blues jersey (or whatever team) on your wall. If your parents have that kind of $$$ to pay for that kind of experience, then go for it.

For sure, that's what I was getting at with my earlier comment - there is certainly value in playing in the MJHL as there is with pursuing any kind of high(ish) level sport. A lot of my kid's coaches have been MJ alumni and whether they're 25 or 50 you can see the skill there. It's impressive.

It's just that if you are on the pay to play plan, questions of whether it's actually worth it or not are inevitable, unless you are the sort of person who can cut a cheque for $20K of team fees or whatever and not give it a second thought.

Regarding your comments about high school hockey, I agree, it is a good program to have here in Winnipeg. It's nice that players who aren't necessarily willing or able to play junior can still perform on a somewhat visible stage like high school hockey - and not break the bank. I could see my own kid headed down this path eventually.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Regarding your comments about high school hockey, I agree, it is a good program to have here in Winnipeg. It's nice that players who aren't necessarily willing or able to play junior can still perform on a somewhat visible stage like high school hockey - and not break the bank. I could see my own kid headed down this path eventually.

My own kid is 13, going on 14. He wants to play at the highest level he can. Maybe he'll make it up to U18AAA, or junior hockey or something. He's very good - but he's not the best.

So I could see him hitting a plateau where he's not going to be making the fancy AAA teams (or not being able to play WHL or Junior A) - but it's also such a huge drop to go down to federation hockey, where it's just for fun and you have your 1 practice, 1 game per week and the only people watching are your parents (he's on the ice multiple times per week right now). An option like high school hockey where it's still quite competitive and meaningful, but no one expects you to turn pro, would be a nice option.

But whatever - it is what it is. I should say his buddies playing federation hockey are still enjoying it.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The Junior Hockey leagues are not slowing down, the demand is still very much there, people are out there and willing to pay, and so the price to play has shot up and likely won't come back down. It's still very competitive and you have to be really good to make Junior A or a high-end Junior B team. Once you get to Junior C, I'm not sure why people are still paying and pursuing, but whatever. Then you have a pure pay to play "junior hockey" league like the GMHL which isn't so much junior hockey as a beer league and will take anyone with money, whether they just started playing last year or not. For the most part across the junior hockey landscape, it's just families like Yukon Joe. The kid is a talented player, they enjoy playing hockey, they are willing to work hard and they want to go wherever they can for the sake of doing so, not necessarily chasing some pie in the sky NHL dream. Just a matter of having the means to do it and choosing to spend on it as a priority in life. That choice isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just sucks that so many get priced out, but the demand amongst talented players still remains.

20 years from now may be a very different landscape, but that's obviously still just speculative for now since the potential participants are not even born yet.