Olympics: Backstrom out final game for banned substance in allergy meds II (warning post 604)

[Lempo]

Because of antihistamine isn't regulated, it makes sense that they haven't reported levels, it isn't a substance they are looking for, so antihistamine levels in the olympics are of no worth because of strict liability rule. It would have been interesting however. But IOK aren't interested in doing detective work, they relay on strict liability. A positive is a positive and the reason for the positive result is not in their interest.

I may have watched too much CSI, I thought it vaguely possible they have a clear reading of everything in the sample. Mainly I thought if they have means and will to go harder/softer with the sentencing if they see a clear indication of intention/non-intention to cheat.

 

[strandvag]

Thanks, quite interesting. What kind of levels in mg/ml were reached, did they go over the WADA limits?
I´m guessing that Zyrtec-D could be counted as a slow release medicine, no?

and what about the other study which in my earlier post I hoped you´d review, strandvag, was there more info about this matter?

I'm trying to find that article in full text, its hard I think I need to order it to be sent to me from the university library.

Im having a hard time trying to get the graphs to this text.
After giving 180 mg fast pseudoephedrine you "mean value" reaching over 600ng/ml in plasmaconcentration after 2 hours (sudafed etc)

After giving 180 mg slow pseudophedrine your "mean value" is reaching to about 150ng/ml after 2 hours in plasma


Cumulative urinary excretion is shown in Table 3.
L(+)pseudoephedrine was excreted significantly
more rapidly following IR (Fast)180, than after other
treatments. After 15 hours there was no difference
between preparations.
/My subject thinking of this is that if you take fast pseudo, you will excrete a higher amount pseudo in a short time, thus giving a high urine sample within the first hours after taking the substance.

And yes Zyrtec D is a slow relaser.

I will try to get this table here

 

[TheRealDeal88]

If these pills were only as effective as coffee, why does nhl players eat them like breakfest cereals? Or is it that simple as one former Hurricans player says today: "It's superstition, if you've taken a pill and play well that game, you don't want to stop". Please please tell me hockeyplayers don't have that low intelligence...

Caffeine is actually quite potent stimulant and I am sure most athletes abuse it especially when there is doping testing involved. Also caffeine enhances effects of most stimulants so it is mostly wise to take caffeine anyways as part of your stimulant stack. And ye you can get mentally addicted to caffeine, pseudo-ephedrine, DMAA or some mix involving multilple stimulants, it is more like that workout/game just doesn't feel same without using it and you don't get to "zone" as easily. Placebo effect can also be very powerful.

 

[pesko]

This case is a perfect example of Hanlon's razor in effect:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

That goes for both Backstrom and the doctors, and the IOC.

 

[sandysan]

Maybe for the same reasons the tests showed no traces of artifical sweeteners, nicotine or blueberries; they dont test for non-banned substances.
Antihistamines are used for allergies, but they arent banned substances since they have no performance enhancing effects. Some makes you a bit drowsy, so if there were ever a sleeping contest in the OG they would be banned (speculation).

Do you know how a lc-ms works ? You think they use bioassays for everything ? i.e test for drug X, get results, test for Y, get the results. test for Z get the results ?

Look at the list of WADA Banned substances, its pretty impressive. but if they do them one at a time, that might be the reason for the sample backup.

If they wanted to know if there were comparible levels of cetirizine, they could ( whether they are allowed release results for non banned or regulated substances I dont know, but they most certainly do). I raised the ratio issue several pages ago.

 

[matzz]

Come on!! This is a simply thing. That pill was on the list of forbidden drugs in international games. The team doctor said he could use it, huge mistake. Now after the team doctor said that 4-5 used it. But what are the swedes doing ? They are complaining and blaim it on all other than temselves, to me it just shows how bad loosers they are. Stand up, and say "we did a mistake, sorry" and take the consequence there after ! Thats what other countries do. Seems like the Swedish team are too proud to do that..... And i need to say that i have nothing against Swedish people if it might sound like that. But this thing you handle really poor..MÃ¥rts and Boustedt and the team doctor shall resign, but i guess they are not men enough to do so.

 

[LiveeviL]

Come on!! This is a simply thing. That pill was on the list of forbidden drugs in international games. The team doctor said he could use it, huge mistake. Now after the team doctor said that 4-5 used it. But what are the swedes doing ? They are complaining and blaim it on all other than temselves, to me it just shows how bad loosers they are. Stand up, and say "we did a mistake, sorry" and take the consequence there after ! Thats what other countries do. Seems like the Swedish team are too proud to do that..... And i need to say that i have nothing against Swedish people if it might sound like that. But this thing you handle really poor..MÃ¥rts and Boustedt and the team doctor shall resign, but i guess they are not men enough to do so.

Welcome to the party, the doctor has already taken the blame and resigned. As you can read just a bit further up in this thread you decide to vent in.

 

[jonlin]

Everyone know this isnt some "accident" and "allergypill". He took pure pseudoephedrin to play harder and be more alert and blames it on allergypill(The "allergypill" was also taken by 4-5 other Swedes(according to Swedens doc. Björn Waldebäck, but their tests were ok). It is commonly used by hockeyplayers in NHL. NHL doesnt follow WADA:s dopingrules.

Point: He was doped and the team-doc took the blame.

USA, Canada and Finland knew it was forbidden and clearly told their players NOT to use it. Swedes screw up. It`s pretty stupid to try blame anyone else than Bäckström.

Bäckström should get a 2yrs ban from hockey for being a moron.

Source:
http://bloggar.aftonbladet.se/wennerholm/2014/02/vart-tog-allergin-vagen/

http://www.iltalehti.fi/sotshi-2014/2014022518073932_sb.shtml

 

[Jussi]

According to Team Finland's doctor Harri Hakkarainen, IOC made it clear in October already that there must be no pseudoephedrine found in tests. So teams and athletes knew it was going to be tested.

 

[Erikfromfin]

Yep. Clear doping case as theres ever been. Bäckström used performance enhancing substance Pseudoefedrin to improve his game and got caught. He even tried to denye it which makes the violation even more serious. 2 Year bann is what he is going to get and deserves. 2nd violation will give him lifetime bann.

 

[aLus]

Backstrom in the presser just refused to answer the question at which time exactly he took the pill, and got very uncomfortable. This makes me think he's not being completely honest about everything. Classic doping case, with a planned excuse.

 

[sandysan]

Backstrom in the presser just refused to answer the question at which time exactly he took the pill, and got very uncomfortable. This makes me think he's not being completely honest about everything. Classic doping case, with a planned excuse.

but dont call him a doper, you dont want to stigmatise him, he has a reputation to keep.

The plot thickens.

 

[Puckdrunk]

Everyone know this isnt some "accident" and "allergypill". He took pure pseudoephedrin to play harder and be more alert and blames it on allergypill(The "allergypill" was also taken by 4-5 other Swedes(according to Swedens doc. Björn Waldebäck, but their tests were ok. It is commonly used by hockeyplayers in NHL. NHL doesnt follow WADA:s dopingrules.

Point: He was doped and the team-doc took the blame.

USA, Canada and Finland knew it was forbidden and clearly told their players NOT to use it. Swedes screw up. It`s pretty stupid to try blame anyone else than Bäckström.

Bäckström should get a 2yrs ban from hockey for being a moron.

Source:
http://bloggar.aftonbladet.se/wennerholm/2014/02/vart-tog-allergin-vagen/

http://www.iltalehti.fi/sotshi-2014/2014022518073932_sb.shtml

We don't know that, all players aren't tested.

 

[Kharkov]

Backstrom in the presser just refused to answer the question at which time exactly he took the pill, and got very uncomfortable.

Why?

 

[Puckdrunk]

Short interview with Bäckström.

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/...adet.se/sportbladet/os2014/article18437826.ab

 

[KriminellPipa]

Backstrom in the presser just refused to answer the question at which time exactly he took the pill, and got very uncomfortable. This makes me think he's not being completely honest about everything. Classic doping case, with a planned excuse.

It is exactly those little things that I think is so suspisious, if it only was some allergy pill he would have answered the question since he had nothing to hide. But maybe he had forgotten and felt uneasy because of that...

 

[aLus]

Why?

Probably because he can't lie without blushing

 

[Peabo]

If they wanted to know if there were comparible levels of cetirizine, they could ( whether they are allowed release results for non banned or regulated substances I dont know, but they most certainly do). I raised the ratio issue several pages ago.

It would take time though, they likely wouldn't have calibrated the machine for cetirizine, since they wouldn't have cared to look at the peak. The peak indicating presence of cetirizine would probably show up but they wouldn't be able to quantify at the same time. Not that calibrating after the fact now would take a long time or anything, they can still quantify it but that's still more work when they are already backlogged. And whose gonna pay for that?

I don't think just being able to identify the cetirizine peak would be enough, he could have taken a little allergy pill to cover up alot pure pseudoephedrin.

 

[Vaeltaja]

Given that IOC/WADA issued separate instructions on the PE usage i believe that they will come down hard on him. And while it is sad for Bäckström - assuming he is telling truth, which is far from clear currently - it might actually be for the best. That is part of the doping control is the deterrence caused by the controls & bans.

 

[sandysan]

It would take time though, they likely wouldn't have calibrated the machine for cetirizine, since they wouldn't have cared to look at the peak. The peak indicating presence of cetirizine would probably show up but they wouldn't be able to quantify at the same time. Not that calibrating after the fact now would take a long time or anything, they can still quantify it but that's still more work when they are already backlogged. And whose gonna pay for that?

I don't think just being able to identify the cetirizine peak would be enough, he could have taken a little allergy pill to cover up alot pure pseudoephedrin.

If he's tinkling 190 of pseudoephedrine and not a comparable level of cetirizine, how do you think that meshes with the assertion that he was taking a pill that contained both ?

They have the trace, and although it might currently be qualitative, that trace ( in my mind) could conceivably address the assertions/conclusion of the Finnish ADA rep, no ?

If the concurrent peak is there is gives some credence to he only ingested whole pills, but it wont speak to a) how many and b) mode of ingestion. This would at least be supportive of the " i made a mistake in dosing" claim and excludes the " I topped up my pseudoephedrine with a couple of Zyrtec's"

 

[Lempo]

The pharma company that makes Zyrtec could pay for the testing, I bet they are making sales records from now on in Finland/Sweden. I pity the drugstore clerks who have to tolerate all the comedians.

 

[Vaeltaja]

I may have watched too much CSI, I thought it vaguely possible they have a clear reading of everything in the sample. Mainly I thought if they have means and will to go harder/softer with the sentencing if they see a clear indication of intention/non-intention to cheat.

That they do get assuming they are using GC-MS or LC-MS. Problem is that biological samples contain a lot of stuff. Whole lot of stuff. So unless there is a reason to look for something they likely won't bother. Also i thought there was WADA policy of the strict liability - which means that they don't have a damn of how, when, by whom, etc. the compound got into the sample, it is there and that is enough.

2.1 Presence of a Prohibited Substance or its Metabolites or Markers in an Athlete’s Sample
2.1.1 It is each Athlete’s personal duty to ensure that no Prohibited Substance enters his or her body. Athletes are responsible for any Prohibited Substance or its Metabolites or Markers found to be present in their Samples. Accordingly, it is not necessary that intent, fault, negligence or knowing Use on the Athlete’s part be demonstrated in order to establish an antidoping violation under Article 2.1.

2.2 Use or Attempted Use by an Athlete of a Prohibited Substance or a Prohibited Method
2.2.1 It is each Athlete’s personal duty to ensure that no Prohibited Substance enters his or her body. Accordingly, it is not necessary that intent, fault, negligence or knowing Use on the Athlete’s part be demonstrated in order to establish an anti-doping rule violation for Use of a Prohibited Substance or a Prohibited Method.

 

[strandvag]

That was kind of a childish answer by Bäckström.
I don't buy the "but its legal in the NHL" either.
If i'm flying out from Sweden to another country, my obligation is to follow that countries rules. Simple.

 

[Puckdrunk]

In Sweden they just want to "smooth" things over like nothing has happened. One of their players got caught taking what everybody apparently is taking over-there-in-America.

He broke the rules in the Olympics, not in the NHL!

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/...-kronor/forre-nhl-backen-alla-har-provat-det/

Makes me sick.

 

[f1nn]

That they do get assuming they are using GC-MS or LC-MS. Problem is that biological samples contain a lot of stuff. Whole lot of stuff. So unless there is a reason to look for something they likely won't bother. Also i thought there was WADA policy of the strict liability - which means that they don't have a damn of how, when, by whom, etc. the compound got into the sample, it is there and that is enough.

and that's how they've acted to this point, but now that the violation has already occured and he sat out the GMG, I can't think of a reason it would take them the two weeks they've said it will take to make the decision other than if they're trying to figure out if there was intent? the latvian player as well as visnovsky had their decisions within a few days didn't they?