Blue Jays Discussion: Back in Toronto AND things are happening (trade deadline @ 4pm ET/1pm PT today)

[phillipmike]

MLB Trade Deadline Ends in Chaotic Fashion

The Blue Jays added the best starting pitcher not named Scherzer.

Toronto looks like the 2015 Cubs. It has a base of terrific young position players. Their window to win is just opening. But they must acquire pitching, not just to rent but to win next year, as well. They did just that by getting Jose Berrios from the Twins, a hard-working, durable young pitcher. How rare are such starters? Ten years ago, there were 93 pitchers who threw enough innings to qualify (one inning for every team game). This year there are only 54. To get one the Jays had to part with Martin, the fifth overall pick last year.

Jays now have 3 of those 54; Ryu, Ray and Berrios. If Matz and/or Stripling go into the 6 in their next few starts they may join the group.

The White Sox are amazing, all 5 of their starters qualify. Philly has 4 with the acquisition of Gibson. Dodgers have 4 with Scherzer, 5 if you include Bauer. Oakland has 4.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

A day later, I’m still not a fan of the Berrios trade. And the fact many (including the Rogers employees) are all of a sudden downplaying the potential of Martin and SWR to justify this as a reasonable cost is a little rich.

But in a vacuum, if we want to look at it solely from the major league roster and not the organization as a whole, the Jays added a front line starter without moving a single piece from the big league roster. So they are further ahead than they were two days ago. Now hopefully it translates to success in the standings and thus a Wild Card spot in the least.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

A day later, I’m still not a fan of the Berrios trade. And the fact many (including the Rogers employees) are all of a sudden downplaying the potential of Martin and SWR to justify this as a reasonable cost is a little rich.

But in a vacuum, if we want to look at it solely from the major league roster and not the organization as a whole, the Jays added a front line starter without moving a single piece from the big league roster. So they are further ahead than they were two days ago. Now hopefully it translates to success in the standings and thus a Wild Card spot in the least.

I do think there are real red flags for both SWR and Martin as prospects in regards to it possibly limiting their ceilings in the majors. I thought that before they were traded, it was more of just a concern as I watched their progress. I think we overpaid in value regardless but I don't think we traded off two surefire major league studs or anything.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[WeThreeKings]

What do people think the major league timeline is for the following

Groshans
Moreno
Orelvis
Hoglund

 

[Woodman19]

What do people think the major league timeline is for the following

Groshans
Moreno
Orelvis
Hoglund

Groshans and Moreno next year, Orelvis and Hoglund 2023/24

 

[weems]

A day later, I’m still not a fan of the Berrios trade. And the fact many (including the Rogers employees) are all of a sudden downplaying the potential of Martin and SWR to justify this as a reasonable cost is a little rich.

But in a vacuum, if we want to look at it solely from the major league roster and not the organization as a whole, the Jays added a front line starter without moving a single piece from the big league roster. So they are further ahead than they were two days ago. Now hopefully it translates to success in the standings and thus a Wild Card spot in the least.

What about the people over at Fangraphs or Baseball America?

 

[dredeye]

Groshans and Moreno next year, Orelvis and Hoglund 2023/24

You don't think they'll run Groshans and Moreno through the Bisons first? I guess being ready and being on the team can be two totally different animals. I'm surprised they haven't given Smith a cup of coffee yet

 

[aingefan]

Maybe about to go on a heater.

 

[Dr.Funk]

You don't think they'll run Groshans and Moreno through the Bisons first? I guess being ready and being on the team can be two totally different animals. I'm surprised they haven't given Smith a cup of coffee yet

They'll get time in AAA. It won't be till mid-late season next season that we see them in the bigs.

 

[Woodman19]

They'll get time in AAA. It won't be till mid-late season next season that we see them in the bigs.

Exactly, we need to manipulate service time for the first couple of months, that's your AAA time right there.

 

[kb]

I wonder how much longer they can keep Smith down before they take a look at him or lose him in Rule 5. I know they would have to clear a 40 man spot (Dolis, I'm looking at you.)

 

[phillipmike]

What about the people over at Fangraphs or Baseball America?

Ive been told by some that Shapiro and Rogers have paid off those organizations to make themselves look better.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Manoah and Springer were awesome today. Cimber was great too.

This team is poised to go on a run.

 

[phillipmike]

What do people think the major league timeline is for the following

Groshans
Moreno
Orelvis
Hoglund

One of the Jays reporters say it was important to get value for Riley Adams (Hand trade) because when Moreno returns from injury, he is likely going to Buffalo this year.

I saw a list where Groshans rocketed up the rankings and Prospect Focus has him 18th;

Groshans likely finishes the season in AA. management holds him in high regard.

But I believe Groshans and Moreno will begin 2022 in Buffalo. If they play well and there is a need, they could be up at some point next year. Moreno is the real deal too. So they may look tho trade Kirk this offseason if they got a great deal or continue to use Moreno at 3B.

Martinez will likely be in A ball the rest of the season. Possible A+ and AA next season and AA and AAA in 2023. Martinez should be up at the earliest in 2023 or 2024 which should be a perfect time as Vladdy, Bichette and Biggio hit arb.

Hoglund will be difficult. He is an advanced arm, if he were healthy he could have gone straight to AA. But they should take him slow, let him start in A or A+ for the 2nd half of 2022 and maybe get up to AA at the end. But he could get a September call up in 2023.

Edit:

Prospect Focus (only publication that has done a re-rank so far) had the following Jays prospects ranked;

18. Jordan Groshans
24. Gabriel Moreno
59. Nate Pearson
61. Austin Martin - Minnesota
70. Orelvis Martinez

Kirk and Manoah graduated. SWR dropped outside of their top 100.

So they Jays have 2 graduates and 4 in the top 100. And they traded Martin and SWR who are moving in the wrong direction. Pearson is too but it sounds like he has value to us this year as he will be ready in the pen.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Everyone make sure to eat your bowl of Berrios in the morning.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

I wonder what if we had picked Emerson Hancock last year instead. The Mariners are moving him slow but imo he could probably be AA right now with his command. Then again, who would we trade for Berrios if not Martin?

 

[Eyedea]

I wonder what if we had picked Emerson Hancock last year instead. The Mariners are moving him slow but imo he could probably be AA right now with his command. Then again, who would we trade for Berrios if not Martin?

I don't know how reliable Stark would be with Jays rumours, but Pearson was the first name mentioned in any deal for Berrios. Don't know if that would've been 1 for 1 or Minny asked for too rich of a sweetener that the Jays decided to pivot to a Martin/SWR package.

 

[canucksfan]

Sale pitched against Buffalo today. He threw 81 pitches. I have no clue on his timeline but hopefully, he doesn't get activated for the Jays/Sox series.

 

[Eyedea]

It's too bad Thornton blows because we could use Aledmys Diaz right now.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I wonder what if we had picked Emerson Hancock last year instead. The Mariners are moving him slow but imo he could probably be AA right now with his command. Then again, who would we trade for Berrios if not Martin?

Feels like we would have taken Veen if not Martin. The rumours pre draft seemed to be him or Meyer before teams went off the board ahead of us. I highly doubt they would have moved him as you tend to want to let the HS guys develop their value first(and then probably hold onto them). Veen is tearing the cover off the ball for the last month so that makes me a tad annoyed.

I feel like if Jansen didn't get injured then Kirk wouldn't be a Jay right now. Not because they have Jansen ahead of him or anything, but because he would be a piece they were willing to part with but with McGuire as your #2 right now that hurt too much for the right now to make that move. Not sure if the Twins had any interest in Kirk or if that was the course for the Jose Ramirez thing mentioned earlier.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I wonder how much longer they can keep Smith down before they take a look at him or lose him in Rule 5. I know they would have to clear a 40 man spot (Dolis, I'm looking at you.)

I suspect we'll see him soon. They won't risk losing him in the rule 5 regardless so worse case he's added to the 40 this offseason, which likely makes his promotion quicker knowing they'll need to use that 40 man spot on him soon anyway.

Have they changed the September call up rules yet? How late is the minor league season going this year since it started late? I assume they want him playing every day still so perhaps when the season is over for the Bisons unless there's a Biggio or Espinal injury before then.

 

[phillipmike]

Sale pitched against Buffalo today. He threw 81 pitches. I have no clue on his timeline but hopefully, he doesn't get activated for the Jays/Sox series.

Jays rotation looks interesting the next few days. We have no off days over the next 8 days. 9 games in 8 days;

Berrios vs the Royals
Ray vs Cleveland
Matz vs Cleveland
Ryu vs Cleveland
Stripling vs Cleveland
Manoah vs Boston
Gm1: Berrios vs Boston
Gm2: Ray vs Boston
Matz vs Boston

Not ideal to have Ray and Berrios for those 7 inning games but I wonder if they swap Ryu and Matz. That way Ryu is on normal rest and you can get him in vs Cleveland and Boston.

Berrios vs the Royals
Ray vs Cleveland
Ryu vs Cleveland
Matz vs Cleveland
Stripling vs Cleveland
Manoah vs Boston
Gm1: Berrios vs Boston
Gm2: Ray vs Boston
Ryu vs Boston

Top 4 guys go up against Boston. Matz is the safety net in the finale vs Boston.

 

[kb]

I suspect we'll see him soon. They won't risk losing him in the rule 5 regardless so worse case he's added to the 40 this offseason, which likely makes his promotion quicker knowing they'll need to use that 40 man spot on him soon anyway.

Have they changed the September call up rules yet? How late is the minor league season going this year since it started late? I assume they want him playing every day still so perhaps when the season is over for the Bisons unless there's a Biggio or Espinal injury before then.

Good point - hadn't thought of that. No idea on the September rules with the minors getting the late start. The one thing I do know is if they add Smith to the 40 before September 1st, he would be post season eligible should the Jays make it that far.

What is good about Smith is that his bat doesn't have to carry mediocre defense, he's a good defender on the left side of the diamond.

 

[canucksfan100]

Would u guys rather
What combination of
Lonzo
Trent
Jarrett Allen
Chris Boucher


Would you guys prefer? I think you can afford 2 of them or 2 of them and Boucher