Babcock talk Part 2

[Jacob582]

At this point, I'm trusting TM will put the right guy in place. He knows what he's looking to build and will find the best candidate.

If it fails, then it's on Murray.

Do we need to trust more than Tim Murray?

Here is what a lot of us thought was an organizational strength over Toronto:
One Owner > ownership board
GMTM > having no GM hired
less layers > more layers (or we thought)

However, with Babcock there were front office concerns. I wouldn't be surprised that if he was doing his due diligence he asked LaFontaine what the power struggle is here.

Babcock said his relationship with Murray is strong, dating to their days in Anaheim, and a source familiar with the negotiations agreed, saying Babcock’s issue was far more with the layers of people in the front office and around Terry Pegula.

A lot of the chatter is about Joe Battista, the team’s vice president of hockey-related business. He continues to be talked about in NHL circles as a growing player of influence within the hockey operation

http://sabres.buffalonews.com/2015/05/21/babcock-simply-wanted-toronto-over-any-other/

Click to read more...

 

[TehDoak]

Do we need to trust more than Tim Murray?

Here is what a lot of us thought was an organizational strength over Toronto:
One Owner > ownership board
GMTM > having no GM hired
less layers > more layers (or we thought)

However, with Babcock there were front office concerns. I wouldn't be surprised that if he was doing his due diligence he asked LaFontaine what the power struggle is here.


http://sabres.buffalonews.com/2015/05/21/babcock-simply-wanted-toronto-over-any-other/

Consider the source. Harrington is looking for ways to find some front office drama that doesn't exist.

Why didn't Babcock come to Buffalo?

#1. He and his wife wanted to live in Toronto
#2. He wants to coach "canada's team"

Babcock didn't go home Tuesday night and say "Gee honey, I am pretty sure Buffalo's VP of Hockey business operations might overstep his bounds. Let's go to a more muddled front office situation for less money"

Harrington is a hack. Buffalo was never a legit option for Babcock.

 

[Jacob582]

Consider the source. Harrington is looking for ways to find some front office drama that doesn't exist.

Why didn't Babcock come to Buffalo?

#1. He and his wife wanted to live in Toronto
#2. He wants to coach "canada's team"

Babcock didn't go home Tuesday night and say "Gee honey, I am pretty sure Buffalo's VP of Hockey business operations might overstep his bounds. Let's go to a more muddled front office situation for less money"

Harrington is a hack. Buffalo was never a legit option for Babcock.

Can you debate my concern and not the reporter?

(I hate Harrington. I haven't followed him on twitter in years. I had a personal rule I followed until today to not quote his articles or his thoughts. But I must say, 75% of that article is solid reporting. I know, no sources named, but how many of the top insiders are saying who their source is?)

The two reasons you gave for why he didn't come to Buffalo is the book answer (PR answer), and quite realistically his main reasons. But don't think for a minute that there are only two things that went through his mind when deciding with his family where to go.

 

[Deevo]

He and his wife loved the idea of living in downtown Toronto at this point in their lives. News flash: Canadians generally quite like living in Canada.

Babcock liked Buffalo's roster and was probably pretty tempted by it, but ultimately the city of Toronto won out in his discussions with his wife.

 

[TehDoak]

Can you debate my concern and not the reporter?

(I hate Harrington. I haven't followed him on twitter in years. I had a personal rule I followed until today to not quote his articles or his thoughts. But I must say, 75% of that article is solid reporting. I know, no sources named, but how many of the top insiders are saying who their source is?)

The two reasons you gave for why he didn't come to Buffalo is the book answer (PR answer), and quite realistically his main reasons. But don't think there are only two things that went through his mind when deciding with his family where to go.

Not to re-hash Babcock and Co here, but, for me at least, Buffalo was never a legit choice. He wanted Toronto, the big stage, the big platform, and the downtown city living. He wanted to coach, in his mind, the most prestigious team.

Front office roles, etc, didn't really have a ton to do with his choice. Toronto's front office roles are muddled and unclear. Buffalo has a GM that reports straight to the ownership. The business side of things and hockey side IMHO has pretty clear division of labor. Much clearer situation that in Toronto.

 

[OkimLom]

Can you debate my concern and not the reporter?

(I hate Harrington. I haven't followed him on twitter in years. I had a personal rule I followed until today to not quote his articles or his thoughts. But I must say, 75% of that article is solid reporting. I know, no sources named, but how many of the top insiders are saying who their source is?)

The two reasons you gave for why he didn't come to Buffalo is the book answer (PR answer), and quite realistically his main reasons. But don't think there are only two things that went through his mind when deciding with his family where to go.

I would like to question the legitimacy of his "source familiar with negotiations". Listening to Tim, whose word I would take over TBN's word, there seemed to be 4 people involved in negotiations.

Considering the fact that Murray is in charge of the team on the hockey side, which includes the hiring of the head coach, I highly doubt a guy who is running HarborCenter operations is in any discussions about the Sabres let alone having any influence on any Hockey decisions.

TBN has really soured on me for the past three years, and I'm noticing that most of their "sources" are unfounded.

 

[ZZamboni]

Not to re-hash Babcock and Co here, but, for me at least, Buffalo was never a legit choice. He wanted Toronto, the big stage, the big platform, and the downtown city living. He wanted to coach, in his mind, the most prestigious team.

Front office roles, etc, didn't really have a ton to do with his choice. Toronto's front office roles are muddled and unclear. Buffalo has a GM that reports straight to the ownership. The business side of things and hockey side IMHO has pretty clear division of labor. Much clearer situation that in Toronto.

I agree. It's pretty cut and dry. No hidden agenda or conspiracy. No "but I think it's really this" garbage.

The only thing I would disagree with is Buffalo not being a legit choice. It was. He chose Toronto. Just like Detroit was a legit choice and any other team he visited. To me, spending the time hearing a pitch is a legit choice. In the last few weeks, any place he doesn't want to coach he didn't meet with or not a legit choice.

I tend to believe him when he said it was a very difficult decision. And I get how some like to live life not believing anything that comes out of athletes, coaches, managements, or politicians mouths. To each his own.

Right from Murrays lips .. Any insinuation that Babcock lied during the whole process is "ludicrous".

But I guess one can chose to not believe anything Murray says I guess

 

[TalkingProuder]

Can you debate my concern and not the reporter?

(I hate Harrington. I haven't followed him on twitter in years. I had a personal rule I followed until today to not quote his articles or his thoughts. But I must say, 75% of that article is solid reporting. I know, no sources named, but how many of the top insiders are saying who their source is?)

The two reasons you gave for why he didn't come to Buffalo is the book answer (PR answer), and quite realistically his main reasons. But don't think for a minute that there are only two things that went through his mind when deciding with his family where to go.

Do you honestly think Toronto's hockey operation makes more sense than ours? They have a President with no scouting or front office experience running the show. They don't have a GM but might hire one. Who cares about people on the business side when Tim Murray reports directly to Pegulas. Their ownership is convoluted too where different groups control and decisions are made by a board. Dictator vs board, tell me which gets results easier.

Buffalo News dumbing down on stupid. There are areas we could improve, I wish they would do real reporting.

 

[Jacob582]

Considering the fact that Murray is in charge of the team on the hockey side, which includes the hiring of the head coach, I highly doubt a guy who is running HarborCenter operations is in any discussions about the Sabres let alone having any influence on any Hockey decisions.

My concern is does Tim Murray report directly to Terry Pegula without having to go through layers of Pegula's people influencing hockey decisions (hiring a coach)?

Joe Battista is VP of Hockey Administration. He has had influence/involvement in the hockey side of things in the past. He was involved with Patty L. in making calls to hire a GM. He was also the one that went down to Nolan to tell him to keep Miller and Ott out of the game on their trade day.

 

[Myllz]

My concern is does Tim Murray report directly to Terry Pegula without having to go through layers of Pegula's people influencing hockey decisions (hiring a coach)?

Joe Battista is VP of Hockey Administration. He has had influence/involvement in the hockey side of things in the past. He was involved with Patty L. in making calls to hire a GM. He was also the one that went down to Nolan to tell him to keep Miller and Ott out of the game on their trade day.

Hiring the coach is Murray's decision. Period.

 

[Jacob582]

Hiring the coach is Murray's decision. Period.

You sure about that? With Pegula as his owner?

 

[Myllz]

You sure about that? With Pegula as his owner?

Yes.

 

[Paxon]

My concern is does Tim Murray report directly to Terry Pegula without having to go through layers of Pegula's people influencing hockey decisions (hiring a coach)?

Joe Battista is VP of Hockey Administration. He has had influence/involvement in the hockey side of things in the past. He was involved with Patty L. in making calls to hire a GM. He was also the one that went down to Nolan to tell him to keep Miller and Ott out of the game on their trade day.

Murray on the radio yesterday on these 'sources' saying it was a done deal, paraphrased slightly due to memory: "The only people in the room who knew about the negotiations were Mike [Babcock], myself, Terry, and Kim". I think that gives as good an idea as anything about who Murray reports to. Also, Battista was the one who went and told Nolan because he was around. Murray basically sent him because Tim was busy and Battista wasn't. I don't think Murray reports to Battista at all. Murray is the head honcho of the hockey operations. I think Battista is something of a gofer for the Pegulas as well as a guy involved in a lot of different things related to the Sabres, but there's nothing to give the impression that he's there as the Pegula's proxy which Murray has to go through to get things done.

 

[Moskau]

It's lazy rumor mongering. Battista was rumored to be the guy that LaFontaine was clashing with and trying to overpower. What better way to start some drama than say that he was also the reason Babcock chose Toronto? You've now established a pattern to the people reading even if one rumor will never be verified and the other rumor was likely made up on the spot. Harrington's "hockey circle" buddies must be an awfully small circle because he's always the last guy to report Sabres information. It wouldn't surprise me if Matt Barnaby was the entire circle.

 

[Puppa2Miller]

Joe Battista is VP of Hockey Administration. He has had influence/involvement in the hockey side of things in the past. He was involved with Patty L. in making calls to hire a GM. He was also the one that went down to Nolan to tell him to keep Miller and Ott out of the game on their trade day.

The only time Battista has been involved in anything of note with the Sabres was him informing Nolan that Miller got traded (Murray was busy getting the deal confirmed with the League).

For some strange reason, Nolan did what Nolan does and got all offended with management and ran with the story to his defenders at The Buffalo News. Since then Harrington and Bucky have had a hard on for conspiracy theories involving Battista- none of which make any sense.

 

[TehDoak]

Mike Harrington on M vs W podcast now.

Should be quite humorous

 

[Jame]

Mike Harrington on M vs W podcast now.

Should be quite humorous

he was on NHLnetwork radio this morning, defending journalism... it was hilarious.

 

[TalkingProuder]

Yeah, Babcock was talking to Pat Lafontaine. Does anyone miss Pat Lafontaine?! I don't. He was hired to do make phone calls in the front office to get a GM list going and to do PR stuff to appease the masses. Once the Pegulas, Murray, and Lafontaine sat down he realized that the Pegulas were going to let the HOCKEY people with front office experience run the show, not Pat. Lafontaine wanted to be what Brendan Shanahan is in Toronto. No experience but in charge of everybody else.

If it was up to Lafontaine there never would have been a real rebuild. He would have been signing free agents for his buddy Teddy Compete.

 

[Ethan Edwards]

I think Battista is something of a gofer for the Pegulas as well as a guy involved in a lot of different things related to the Sabres, but there's nothing to give the impression that he's there as the Pegula's proxy which Murray has to go through to get things done.

Not quite sure what you mean by "gofer," but the rest of that seems accurate. I can't speak to what goes on in the Sabres organization, but I can say without hesitation that Joe Battista possesses a wealth of hockey knowledge and I would be shocked to learn that he's the source of any hockey-related drama at FNC. He's someone you definitely want to rely on as a sounding board if nothing else, and I would bet Murray does so, but it also appears evident that Murray runs the hockey show and that in the end his decision controls, and I would bet hard money that Joe B. supports that 100%, even if the occasional disagreement pops up.

 

[TehDoak]

he was on NHLnetwork radio this morning, defending journalism... it was hilarious.

For those who don't listen to MvsW, a quick summary:

"The Buffalo News asks the TOUGH questions and the organization doesn't like it"

"Murray hides from the media on the Sabres radio station"

Just cringe worthy stuff from Harrington there.

 

[Myllz]

For those who don't listen to MvsW, a quick summary:

"The Buffalo News asks the TOUGH questions and the organization doesn't like it"

"Murray hides from the media on the Sabres radio station"

Just cringe worthy stuff from Harrington there. TBN is really the fox news of Buffalo media. Too bad there isn't a NPR equivalent for the Sabres.

That's what makes Murray going "You guys can ask more questions, I have time" during his interview the other day even more funny.

 

[TehDoak]

Hiring the coach is Murray's decision. Period.

You sure about that? With Pegula as his owner?

My understanding of how Terry operates (and obviously, this is from a total outsider):

He likes to be informed (he was quoted that he talked to darcy AND lindy nearly every day during the season), I really don't see why it would be any different with Murray.

Pegula will be involved at some level with the hiring. My guess is that Tim will talk to Terry before any interview, Pegula will ask Tim questions about the candidate, get his feel for him, Tim will interview the candidate, report back to Pegula. This process will continue for each candidate, he will decide on one, make the sales pitch to Pegula on why he feels this is the best guy. Coach will meet with Pegula, and unless there are some serious red flags/personality issues, Pegula will rubber stamp the guy.

 

[Myllz]

My understanding of how Terry operates (and obviously, this is from a total outsider):

He likes to be informed (he was quoted that he talked to darcy AND lindy nearly every day during the season), I really don't see why it would be any different with Murray.

Pegula will be involved at some level with the hiring. My guess is that Tim will talk to Terry before any interview, Pegula will ask Tim questions about the candidate, get his feel for him, Tim will interview the candidate, report back to Pegula. This process will continue for each candidate, he will decide on one, make the sales pitch to Pegula on why he feels this is the best guy. Coach will meet with Pegula, and unless there are some serious red flags/personality issues, Pegula will rubber stamp the guy.

Even if Pegula disagrees or doesn't like something about the candidate, I don't see him telling Murray no. If Tim comes to him and says "This is my guy, I can make this team work with him", you really think Terry's going to stand in the way of that? Terry will be involved in the hiring process as you said, but the final say is going to be Murray's.

 

[Paxon]

All sense from anything relating to this we've observed over the years is that Pegula is hands-on but not controlling. That is to say he wants to know what's going on, he wants to know why decisions are made, and he wants to share his opinions without them being seen as directives. He knows he's not an expert, so his opinion is not gospel, but he wants to be able to have conversations such as "Well this guy is pretty good, have you thought about bringing him in?" "No, not really. We don't see him as a good fit because [gives an explanation]"

 

[Clock]

For those who don't listen to MvsW, a quick summary:

"The Buffalo News asks the TOUGH questions and the organization doesn't like it"

"Murray hides from the media on the Sabres radio station"

Just cringe worthy stuff from Harrington there. TBN is really the fox news of Buffalo media. Too bad there isn't a NPR equivalent for the Sabres.

Anyone have a link?