News Article: Babcock Keeps Pushing Red Wings in Perhaps His Best Coaching Job Ever

[norrisnick]

I was tougher on E three years out than 1 year out. Besides, this all started with Babs' impression of his improvement over that time period.

Smith's draft year was the first season Ericsson played as a full-time defenseman. Sure E is older, but as far as learning the position, they're pretty much on the same curve. Except Smith was learning the ins and outs of defense in college and the AHL and E was doing so in the AHL and NHL.

 

[Fugu]

Smith's draft year was the first season Ericsson played as a full-time defenseman. Sure E is older, but as far as learning the position, they're pretty much on the same curve. Except Smith was learning the ins and outs of defense in college and the AHL and E was doing so in the AHL and NHL.

You've often presented that case, that E changing positions had a lot to do with his [delayed] learning curve. My beef with Ericsson was that the was getting on-the-job training in the NHL, nearly three years of it before he broke into the top four. Smith's curve is hardly comparable since this is his first year in the NHL, and he was expected to be more NHL-ready than what E was afforded, in my opinion. Smith started in the top four in his first year in the NHL, and has remained there.


Anyway, I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this point. Why are you up during the middle of the night? I'm on the west coast and it's almost 2 AM here.

 

[norrisnick]

You've often presented that case, that E changing positions had a lot to do with his [delayed] learning curve. My beef with Ericsson was that the was getting on-the-job training in the NHL, nearly three years of it before he broke into the top four. Smith's curve is hardly comparable since this is his first year in the NHL, and he was expected to be more NHL-ready than what E was afforded, in my opinion. Smith started in the top four in his first year in the NHL, and has remained there.

E not cracking the top 4 and Smith cracking the top 4 happened for pretty much the same reason. Personnel. E coming up wasn't going to be played ahead Nick, Kronwall, Stu, or Rafalski (even though at times he probably could or should have for a couple of them and in the event of injuries he did).

And the reason Smith has stayed there now is because those players aren't here. Had we signed Suter and Coloaiacovo stayed healthy, I'm thinking that Smith likely would have started and stayed on pairing 3.

Anyway, I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this point. Why are you up during the middle of the night? I'm on the west coast and it's almost 2 AM here.

Messed up sleep schedule.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Last off-season Babcock asked for Right handed shots, more speed, a scorer capable of playing in the top 6 and players who are difficult to play against.

Bert when healthy fits the last 2 categories, Sammy is a Right handed shot who can play in the top 6 when needed and Tootoo fits 3 of those categories.

I think they were all players Babs wanted or the closest available to what he wanted and they just didn't work out how he and Holland likely hoped.

We really have no idea what the inner workings are like between Babcock and management, and considering how well this season has gone compared to what we expected maybe we should all chill out a bit and stop second guessing them.

This x 1,000,000,000,000

 

[Actual Thought*]

He's making a lot of rookie mistakes. How well do you think E would have done three years ago playing third highest TOI/gm-- on this type of team? He would have sucked worse than Smith.


No idea why you even ask the question with such incongruous situations.



He's vastly improved this year. I see him sticking closer to the net instead of skating around all over the defensive zone like he used to, for example.

This is one of the reasons Holland and Babcock are so successful. They typically allow their players to mature and learn to be NHL players instead of just rushing them into a position that is over their head. Tatar! Tatar! He should already be in the Hall of Fame...blah, blah, blah....Nyquist should get 30 minutes a night with Datsyuk and Zetterberg! Babcock sucks! Holland sucks! Blah, blah, blah.....

Red Wings players are successful because of management's brilliance not in spite of it.

 

[Mickey Redmond*]

Imagine if Parise and Suter had signed

 

[obey86]

This is one of the reasons Holland and Babcock are so successful. They typically allow their players to mature and learn to be NHL players instead of just rushing them into a position that is over their head. Tatar! Tatar! He should already be in the Hall of Fame...blah, blah, blah....Nyquist should get 30 minutes a night with Datsyuk and Zetterberg! Babcock sucks! Holland sucks! Blah, blah, blah.....

Red Wings players are successful because of management's brilliance not in spite of it.

Exactly. How many players don't improve while on the Wings long term? Not that many IMO.

 

[obey86]

Imagine if Parise and Suter had signed

Lucky for them they went to that great team in Minnesota. Blew their wad in free agency and barely even made the playoffs.

They may have some nice young talent in Minnesota and some on the way still, but they have no ****ing clue how to build an actual team there.

 

[Flowah]

This is one of the reasons Holland and Babcock are so successful. They typically allow their players to mature and learn to be NHL players instead of just rushing them into a position that is over their head. Tatar! Tatar! He should already be in the Hall of Fame...blah, blah, blah....Nyquist should get 30 minutes a night with Datsyuk and Zetterberg! Babcock sucks! Holland sucks! Blah, blah, blah.....

Red Wings players are successful because of management's brilliance not in spite of it.

Actually. That's an argument for not over ripening. E is the dependable dman we have today because he was brought up earlier in a safer environment and learned from the best.

Smith is making a ton of mistakes now and it exposes the team because he necessarily has to play big important minutes because of how much weaker the back line is now.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Exactly. How many players don't improve while on the Wings long term? Not that many IMO.

Your right. They consistently find capable players with late picks and develop them. Tons of teams rush players and many don't last because of it. Maybe the Wing's brass knows something about Tatar. Maybe his conditioning isn't up to standards. Maybe he just needs to learn to be a professional. In any case the Wings do things for a reason. The notion that they are just dumb and a bunch of forum posters know better is kinda funny.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Actually. That's an argument for not over ripening. E is the dependable dman we have today because he was brought up earlier in a safer environment and learned from the best.

Smith is making a ton of mistakes now and it exposes the team because he necessarily has to play big important minutes because of how much weaker the back line is now.

Every player is different. Some may be ready earlier than others. Clearly Tatar isn't ready or he would have stuck when he came up. There is more to it than he can skate good a couple of games.

 

[Flowah]

Every player is different. Some may be ready earlier than others. Clearly Tatar isn't ready or he would have stuck when he came up. There is more to it than he can skate good a couple of games.

He clearly wasn't ready? Did you watch him? Or do you just assume Holland and Babcock never make mistakes so if he got sent back down then obviously he wasn't ready?

 

[Heaton]

He clearly wasn't ready? Did you watch him? Or do you just assume Holland and Babcock never make mistakes so if he got sent back down then obviously he wasn't ready?

I think he was ready, but we've all seen players look fantastic for a few games, then come crashing back to earth. Tarasenko on the Blues is one example.

 

[crashman]

So far, I think Babcock has been a step ahead of Quenneville. The Wings straight outplayed the Hawks in game 2, and I think game 3 could have gone either way, but the puck luck was just on our side. I think the Wings were prepared for them to push-back with the physical play and Detroit ended up using it to their advantage.

Game 4 is going to be a tough game for the Wings. The Hawks have their backs against the wall and they're going to be flying out there. We've seen the Wings in this situation before (against Anaheim in years past) and they came back pretty strong.

 

[obey86]

He clearly wasn't ready? Did you watch him? Or do you just assume Holland and Babcock never make mistakes so if he got sent back down then obviously he wasn't ready?

what about his practice habits? the way he responded to babcock's coaching? his interaction with his teammates? the weak aspects of his game they want him to work on? was he playing within the "system" ? his maturity/immaturity? the needs of the team? 8 min a night in the NHL vs 20 min a night in the AHL?

there's a hell of a lot more that goes into that decision than just how good he looked on the ice. most of it isn't seen or known by us.

 

[Fugu]

Actually. That's an argument for not over ripening. E is the dependable dman we have today because he was brought up earlier in a safer environment and learned from the best.
Smith is making a ton of mistakes now and it exposes the team because he necessarily has to play big important minutes because of how much weaker the back line is now.

That is my view in a nutshell. Smith is being thrown into the fire (and getting unbelievable flack), making the kind of errors E was making for three years straight! He's a big body (Babcock preference), while Kindl and Smith have had it a bit tougher with IT or not being sheltered (in the case of the latter).

 

[Actual Thought*]

He clearly wasn't ready? Did you watch him? Or do you just assume Holland and Babcock never make mistakes so if he got sent back down then obviously he wasn't ready?

I don't believe Holland and Babcock don't ever make mistakes. However I am pretty certain that they are smart enough to learn from them. When interviewing to fill their positions you wouldn't be searching for candidates who would achieve perfection. They don't exist. What you would be trying to find is someone who you believe can build and coach a stanley cup winning team or teams.
You have a gm with 4 rings and a coach with one along with several deep playoff runs. Holland has steered this team through losing Yzerman, Federov, Larionov, Shanahan, Hull, Robitaille, Konstantinov, Fischer, Stewart, Rafalski,and Lidstrom along with many others. Holland lost Scotty Bowman, the best coach ever in any professional sport. In spite of all these changes and transitions Holland has kept the team winning and they are still winning. Babcock and Holland are quite possibly the best tandem in hockey. If they suddenly went on the market there would be a 29 team bidding war for their services. All of this evidence makes it completely obvious to me that they deserve the benefit of the doubt especially in light of the fact that the team is in a pretty good position in a playoff series vs the top seed in the NHL after just knocking off the 2 seed.
Tatar played pretty well in a small sample size and then got sent down. I believe based on track record that Holland and Babcock did that for a reason. Maybe Tatar doesn't keep up with his nutrition like he needs to in the NHL? Maybe his off ice workout habits aren't up to Red Wing standards? Maybe they weren't as enamored with his on ice performance as others were or maybe he has a crappy personality?
This is clearly an organization with very high standards and if he wants to be a Red Wing he must meet those standards. Apparently he has not done so. The fact is we don't have all of the information that the team has. I don't pretend to know specifically why they made the decision but given the team's track record in developing talent I trust that they are making quality deliberative decisions even if I don't immediately understand them. Don't you?
To be honest at the beginning of the year I didn't think this team was very good. I expected them to finish the season pretty much the way they did, fighting to make the playoffs. What I didn't expect is what happened next. I am pretty happy with how things are going.
At no point have I believed Holland or Babcock should be fired. At this point it is more obvious than it was before.

 

[Heaton]

That is my view in a nutshell. Smith is being thrown into the fire (and getting unbelievable flack), making the kind of errors E was making for three years straight! He's a big body (Babcock preference), while Kindl and Smith have had it a bit tougher with IT or not being sheltered (in the case of the latter).

I don't expect Smith's errors to really go away that much, but his contributions will outweigh them. It's what happened with Kronwall - when we were winning a lot more, Kronwall was still making the mistakes, but they weren't as costly.

People expected too much out of E, too soon. I think some of that had to do with Babcock really liking him. But the Ericsson hate far surpassed anything we've seen from Smith. I guess we'll have to wait for Smith to get a real contract before people start to really nitpick him.

 

[Fugu]

I don't expect Smith's errors to really go away that much, but his contributions will outweigh them. It's what happened with Kronwall - when we were winning a lot more, Kronwall was still making the mistakes, but they weren't as costly.

People expected too much out of E, too soon. I think some of that had to do with Babcock really liking him. But the Ericsson hate far surpassed anything we've seen from Smith. I guess we'll have to wait for Smith to get a real contract before people start to really nitpick him.

The only thing I'll add is to point out that Kronwall came up when the team was rolling upwards, and eventually won a Cup, almost two. He joined a magnificently constructed and coached team. Smith should not be compared to him in development curves whatsoever. He joined a team that lost Lidstrom, Stuart, and earlier Rafalski (none of whom were really replaced by anyone as good or better), and a team that is rebuilding on the fly. The puck support you get on all parts of the ice, and amount of time your team spends controlling a puck do factor significantly into the players' stats and contributions overall.

 

[Heaton]

The only thing I'll add is to point out that Kronwall came up when the team was rolling upwards, and eventually won a Cup, almost two. He joined a magnificently constructed and coached team. Smith should not be compared to him in development curves whatsoever. He joined a team that lost Lidstrom, Stuart, and earlier Rafalski (none of whom were really replaced by anyone as good or better), and a team that is rebuilding on the fly. The puck support you get on all parts of the ice, and amount of time your team spends controlling a puck do factor significantly into the players' stats and contributions overall.

I agree. I think Smith is 2-3 years away from reaching his full potential. You'll see that with a lot of players, before a month prior to the playoffs people thought Drew Doughty was regressing.

 

[RedWinger10]

Babcock is truly doing something special. Putting together these young, fast, high energy lines like the Nyquist line is something I have been waiting for. This is great to see him doing so well after 2/3rds+ of the people on HFBoards were calling for him to be fired the whole season.

 

[obey86]

Fire Babcock. The team has tuned him out. Am I right?

 

[Actual Thought*]

Fire Babcock. The team has tuned him out. Am I right?

That's what I heard.

 

[Flowah]

I don't believe Holland and Babcock don't ever make mistakes. However I am pretty certain that they are smart enough to learn from them. When interviewing to fill their positions you wouldn't be searching for candidates who would achieve perfection. They don't exist. What you would be trying to find is someone who you believe can build and coach a stanley cup winning team or teams.
You have a gm with 4 rings and a coach with one along with several deep playoff runs. Holland has steered this team through losing Yzerman, Federov, Larionov, Shanahan, Hull, Robitaille, Konstantinov, Fischer, Stewart, Rafalski,and Lidstrom along with many others. Holland lost Scotty Bowman, the best coach ever in any professional sport. In spite of all these changes and transitions Holland has kept the team winning and they are still winning. Babcock and Holland are quite possibly the best tandem in hockey. If they suddenly went on the market there would be a 29 team bidding war for their services. All of this evidence makes it completely obvious to me that they deserve the benefit of the doubt especially in light of the fact that the team is in a pretty good position in a playoff series vs the top seed in the NHL after just knocking off the 2 seed.
Tatar played pretty well in a small sample size and then got sent down. I believe based on track record that Holland and Babcock did that for a reason. Maybe Tatar doesn't keep up with his nutrition like he needs to in the NHL? Maybe his off ice workout habits aren't up to Red Wing standards? Maybe they weren't as enamored with his on ice performance as others were or maybe he has a crappy personality?
This is clearly an organization with very high standards and if he wants to be a Red Wing he must meet those standards. Apparently he has not done so. The fact is we don't have all of the information that the team has. I don't pretend to know specifically why they made the decision but given the team's track record in developing talent I trust that they are making quality deliberative decisions even if I don't immediately understand them. Don't you?
To be honest at the beginning of the year I didn't think this team was very good. I expected them to finish the season pretty much the way they did, fighting to make the playoffs. What I didn't expect is what happened next. I am pretty happy with how things are going.
At no point have I believed Holland or Babcock should be fired. At this point it is more obvious than it was before.

Please don't tell me to kiss the rings. Most of them were before the salary cap, that's a different time. And frankly, if we're going to go based on past performances, all the more reason why Tatar should have been up.

His performance in the AHL, and during his callup, were more than enough to warrant his staying up. He did just as well as Nyquist did in the same number of games. Better to many viewers who saw aspects of his game that didn't translate to a stats sheet.

All you're saying right now is a bunch of pure speculation. Nutrition? Really? Do you have a shred, a hint, a smattering of evidence to support that? Or anything else? Because I judge based on what I see and read, not based on what excuses I can cook up in my head. And what I saw from Tatar was a kid who had worked his butt off in the AHL, putting up tons of points, for years. I saw a kid who was excited as hell to be with the Red Wings. I saw a kid who competed every game.

Really, your post is long, but can be summed up as "Babcock and Holland have a history of winning. Therefore I do not doubt their judgment."

That's fine. I'm not in the habit of not believing my own eyes when it comes to a hockey player. I've been watching and playing hockey for a long time myself. It's not like I'm some guy who has no idea what he's looking at. If there's something off-ice that we don't know about, then we don't know about it and I don't care to make random speculation based on no information. Based on what I've seen, he should have been up and he's not. Just as Nyquist should have been up since the start of the year, yet he wasn't.

 

[waltdetroit]

Your right. They consistently find capable players with late picks and develop them. Tons of teams rush players and many don't last because of it. Maybe the Wing's brass knows something about Tatar. Maybe his conditioning isn't up to standards. Maybe he just needs to learn to be a professional. In any case the Wings do things for a reason. The notion that they are just dumb and a bunch of forum posters know better is kinda funny.

I think Tater is learning to be a leader. He had a fantastic game last night - becoming a real go-to guy, 1st goal an outstanding personal effort, 2nd goal he worked had to get to the net & received a great pass. This is his first playoffs in a league ever I understand