Confirmed with Link: [AZ/PHI] Shayne Gostisbehere, a 2022 2nd, and a 2022 7th from PHI for one US dollar

[The Feckless Puck]

In 5 years, we are going to see more players from 2nd round and beyond picked by Chayka with meaningful professional careers (more meaningful than the picks from the preceeding GM).

I would be extremely interested to know which later-round prospects Chayka drafted you believe will have meaningful professional careers (I will guess that you are referring to the NHL and not, say, SEL or something similar).

 

[lanky]

I would be extremely interested to know which later-round prospects Chayka drafted you believe will have meaningful professional careers (I will guess that you are referring to the NHL and not, say, SEL or something similar).

Garland qualifies.
Jenik and Macceli are on pace.

 

[Jakey53]

John Chayka is the biggest laughing stock of a GM since Mike Milbury. He absolutely ran the franchise into the ground. Yet you love him and defend him at every turn. I’m not sure there’s much we can say to eachother on the topic of Chayka that’s going to amount to an enlightened discussion. But your non-Chayka posts are awesome. I thank you for making real contributions to the discussion and using your big smart brain to share really interesting thoughts on every other subject.

I think most liked Chayka when he was here, including you. Some were saying Chayka being a top 5 GM etc. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[BUX7PHX]

I would be extremely interested to know which later-round prospects Chayka drafted you believe will have meaningful professional careers (I will guess that you are referring to the NHL and not, say, SEL or something similar).

Jenik, Callahan, Farinacci, Maccelli, Prosvetov, and Crotty are all on my radar to be at least very good AHL players or better.

Emberson, Romano, Kirk, and Bergkvist are probably not NHL bound. Likely AHL top outs.

Steenbergen is a question mark, but I don't know if he gets to the NHL level for multiple seasons

I also would like to think that Darin or Savunov could be on the radar as well.

That is for the players that are on the roster. I won't include the players like Bahl or Entwistle, whom were parts of other trades, but we can't make those trades without those players having some quality to their game.

Name another time when we had 5 names to get excited about as prospects with DM at the helm. When Samuelsson is your 3rd-7th best prospect from 2013-15, hard to have success there. Ultimately, I think 4, and maybe 5 of those players above make the NHL and carve out decent careers.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Garland qualifies.

Garland was drafted in 2015. Chayka didn't arrive until the next year.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Garland qualifies.
Jenik and Macceli are on pace.

Garland does, but I will stick with players drafted with Chayka in charge.

Jenik, Maccelli, Provetsov for sure. I think that 1 or 2 come from Farinacci or a few defensemen. There has not been a time in the last 15 years when the prospect pool has been this deep. Which is also scary because of the lack of talent, and the fact that we gave up talent in deals.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Jenik, Callahan, Farinacci, Maccelli, Prosvetov, and Crotty are all on my radar to be at least very good AHL players or better.

Emberson, Romano, Kirk, and Bergkvist are probably not NHL bound. Likely AHL top outs.

Steenbergen is a question mark, but I don't know if he gets to the NHL level for multiple seasons

I also would like to think that Darin or Savunov could be on the radar as well.

That is for the players that are on the roster. I won't include the players like Bahl or Entwistle, whom were parts of other trades, but we can't make those trades without those players having some quality to their game.

Name another time when we had 5 names to get excited about as prospects with DM at the helm. When Samuelsson is your 3rd-7th best prospect from 2013-15, hard to have success there. Ultimately, I think 4, and maybe 5 of those players above make the NHL and carve out decent careers.

Thanks for clarifying.

I guess the sticking point is the phrase "meaningful professional careers." If we include AHL, overseas leagues, etc., then Maloney and even Barnett can lay claim to later-round prospects qualifying for the "meaningful" tag.

I like Jenik, Maccelli, and Prosvetov as possible NHLers. I'm a fan of Callahan, Crotty, and Emberson, and I have a soft spot for Kirk just for the odds he's faced coming out of British hockey.

That said, I don't think I'd use this list of players as evidence that Chayka's prospect batting average will outstrip every previous Coyotes GM as you seemed to indicate in your original post. A lot has to go right for the guys listed to make it to the top level. Anticipating future success based on Chayka's analytics and metrics is something of a fool's game.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Garland was drafted in 2015. Chayka didn't arrive until the next year.

Garland was the pick that Chayka made when DM "allowed" him to make a selection as AGM

 

[BUX7PHX]

Thanks for clarifying.

I guess the sticking point is the phrase "meaningful professional careers." If we include AHL, overseas leagues, etc., then Maloney and even Barnett can lay claim to later-round prospects qualifying for the "meaningful" tag.

I like Jenik, Maccelli, and Prosvetov as possible NHLers. I'm a fan of Callahan, Crotty, and Emberson, and I have a soft spot for Kirk just for the odds he's faced coming out of British hockey.

That said, I don't think I'd use this list of players as evidence that Chayka's prospect batting average will outstrip every previous Coyotes GM as you seemed to indicate in your original post. A lot has to go right for the guys listed to make it to the top level. Anticipating future success based on Chayka's analytics and metrics is something of a fool's game.

Uhhh, i think you need to look at some of the players picked in 2nd round or later by our previous GMs.

We had NOTHING of value at the AHL level. It was bad. Like, really bad. I would like to say that I am kidding, but if you put all picks made by DM and JC in comparison, you may be surprised at how many did not pan out from Maloney and how many are at least being discussed for growth from Chayka.

It really is that bad.

 

[XX]

Garland was drafted in 2015. Chayka didn't arrive until the next year.

Chayka was given control of one pick in Maloney's draft and it was Garland. He had absurd production for his league and Chayka went off of that.

 

[hbk]

Garland was the pick that Chayka made when DM "allowed" him to make a selection as AGM

Yes. this is the story reported by Morgan.

 

[XX]

Anticipating future success based on Chayka's analytics and metrics is something of a fool's game.

It's what every team does. They all keep track of NHLe and benchmark prospects against historical data sets to find guys that stick out or don't belong. Younger players in the draft punching at equal or better weight than their older peers have been especially fruitful.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Uhhh, i think you need to look at some of the players picked in 2nd round or later by our previous GMs.

I am well- (and painfully) aware of our draft record. But I think you're projecting future success on guys who haven't yet proven anything.

Chayka's legacy is basically "On paper, this will work." I was one of the very few who liked the trade of 7OA + DeAngelo for Stepan and Raanta. Loved that trade. In hindsight, we won the trade pretty handily - DeAngelo is likely going to be out of the league for good after today's buyout, and there's no indication that Lias Andersson (an awful off-the-board pick, again in hindsight) is going to go very far. Except that Stepan basically single-handedly curdled our locker room vibe into "bro country," and Raanta is, of course, made entirely of glass. Similarly, the trade for Taylor Hall was a gamble that, on paper, was a great move... except that in practice, Hall's addition ended up being the catalyst for nothing but a titanic losing streak. Now, you could blame that on Tocchet or whatever, but the fact remains that the transition from the spreadsheet to real life robbed Chayka's best-laid plans of their ROI.

Even if you chalk up Garland to Chayka, the Garland Chayka drafted was never going to make the NHL. It was Mike Van Ryn's come-to-Jesus meeting with Garland, and a lot of elbow grease on Garland's part to completely reinvent his game, that resulted in him having a "meaningful professional career."

So I guess what I'm saying here is that to exonerate Puck Farkus as a great hockey mind based on projecting success on a bunch of futures is a bad idea. For the sake of our franchise, it'd be nice if you were right about his draft picks' potential. I'd also love to see Clayton Keller turn into the star player Chayka thought he was instead of remaining a titanically overpaid undersized complementary winger.

We'll see what time and life have to say about it.

 

[BUX7PHX]

It's what every team does. They all keep track of NHLe and benchmark prospects against historical data sets to find guys that stick out or don't belong. Younger players in the draft punching at equal or better weight than their older peers have been especially fruitful.

I think people become misinformed as to what analytics does. Analytics doesn't make a decision for you. It just points to the direction of issues to solve.

Say that analytics says our zone entries are awful.

That doesn't mean we have to draft the best palyer at zone entry. It could mean we need a new player or different system, but the staff then need to point in a direction, based on the data.

Personally, I think that data probably revealed something like a fight or an enforcer did not even factor as a measureable analytic to a game's outcome. Maybe there is more influence to that metric, but that route was not chosen. Maybe it was more important to add skill than toughness initially, and we would shift team building as we had more talent in the pipeline.

The goal is to get the players that last. You could get a Perlini and watch him tease you goals. But a player who has 200 NHL games in him is not as valuable as the 4th liner who has 750 games from the same draft class. Moving away from the one year wonders of draft classes and getting players who may see 5-10 seasons of high level pro play was starting to be acheived more under Chayka.

 

[BUX7PHX]

I am well- (and painfully) aware of our draft record. But I think you're projecting future success on guys who haven't yet proven anything.

Chayka's legacy is basically "On paper, this will work." I was one of the very few who liked the trade of 7OA + DeAngelo for Stepan and Raanta. Loved that trade. In hindsight, we won the trade pretty handily - DeAngelo is likely going to be out of the league for good after today's buyout, and there's no indication that Lias Andersson (an awful off-the-board pick, again in hindsight) is going to go very far. Except that Stepan basically single-handedly curdled our locker room vibe into "bro country," and Raanta is, of course, made entirely of glass. Similarly, the trade for Taylor Hall was a gamble that, on paper, was a great move... except that in practice, Hall's addition ended up being the catalyst for nothing but a titanic losing streak. Now, you could blame that on Tocchet or whatever, but the fact remains that the transition from the spreadsheet to real life robbed Chayka's best-laid plans of their ROI.

Even if you chalk up Garland to Chayka, the Garland Chayka drafted was never going to make the NHL. It was Mike Van Ryn's come-to-Jesus meeting with Garland, and a lot of elbow grease on Garland's part to completely reinvent his game, that resulted in him having a "meaningful professional career."

So I guess what I'm saying here is that to exonerate Puck Farkus as a great hockey mind based on projecting success on a bunch of futures is a bad idea. For the sake of our franchise, it'd be nice if you were right about his draft picks' potential. I'd also love to see Clayton Keller turn into the star player Chayka thought he was instead of remaining a titanically overpaid undersized complementary winger.

We'll see what time and life have to say about it.

True, it takes the player also developing himself. I think one aspect that Chayka may have been interested in is finding self-starters. These are the ones who understand the idea of improving flaws, etc.

I feel like we should be way more comfortable with regard to what we have coming up for the first time in a long time. I think BA and JC actually are similar in ability to "unearth" players, but it is more sour on Chayka because of how everything finished for him.

The concepts used are still the same. Use the salary space. You get quality in the first 50-70 picks, but you find value after that. BA and JC are more alike than people think with regard to many aspects. There will also be differences.

I think the bigger issue is that the team looked like it was up and up, then so much crashed down and it looks worse than it really is.

 

[Fyreman]

Jenik, Callahan, Farinacci, Maccelli, Prosvetov, and Crotty are all on my radar to be at least very good AHL players or better.

Great opinion, however I'm of the thinking we DON'T need very good AHL players with fingers crossed and shamrocks jammed up our a**. Maybe, hoping, praying, doesn't cut it for me anymore. I've read about and listened to many people say "man, great stats in the AHL, but s**t the bed when he moved up to the show."

I hope you are really, really right and I'm really, really, wrong and eating humble pie at the same time.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Great opinion, however I'm of the thinking we DON'T need very good AHL players with fingers crossed and shamrocks jammed up our a**. Maybe, hoping, praying, doesn't cut it for me anymore. I've read about and listened to many people say "man, great stats in the AHL, but s**t the bed when he moved up to the show."

I hope you are really, really right and I'm really, really, wrong and eating humble pie at the same time.

I totally understand where you are coming from, because we need NHL players. This is truth.

Yet, for so long, I think we had to pull up players who were not ready or would not fit any chance for a role going forward. Conor Murphy was brought up before he was ready. He did well, but that isn't always the position you want to have players in. If Murphy was brought up ahead of a "veteran AHL RD," that becomes a very different story because he is playing to a degree at or above the level of a different player on the same team. That is how development occurs. You have a stronger "bar" to cross to be on a certain AHL line or be brought up to the NHL. When the quality of that bar raises, your team or program benefits.

With DM, I feel like the bar to separate AHL and NHL was low. We didn't dip into the AHL heavily in 09-10 season because we had extra players in Nokelainen, Bissonnette, Vandermeer, etc and the bar was artificially high. In 13-14, we have less on the AHL side, and Tim Kennedy, MacMillan, and Szwarz are our call-ups. That's the low bar version of who we can bring up.

Adding talent across the entire organization has been key, so I am just happy that we appear to have that framework starting.

 

[TheLegend]

[REMINDER: This is the Gostisbehere thread....... we have other threads for the general stuff]

 

[Dirty Old Man]

So I was watching NHL Network this evening and they had this trade listed as 'future considerations' on the Flyers side...

 

[RABBIT]

Yo I’m still f***in excited about acquiring Ghost Bear. He isn’t just a throw in

 

[Jormungandr]

Yo I’m still f***in excited about acquiring Ghost Bear. He isn’t just a throw in

Ghost is one of my favorites. He’s a treat to watch.

 

[Jormungandr]

So I was watching NHL Network this evening and they had this trade listed as 'future considerations' on the Flyers side...

“Future considerations” is nothing. Nothing ever comes from it.

 

[TheLegend]

So I was watching NHL Network this evening and they had this trade listed as 'future considerations' on the Flyers side...

A bag of Max Domi autographed pucks.

 

[Grimes]

“Future considerations” is nothing. Nothing ever comes from it.

BA agreed to take Fletcher out to dinner to discuss who he drafted with that additional 7th.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Same number of letters as OEL, but without the hyphen.