ATD2011 Thomas D. Greem Semi: (1) Toronto St. Pats vs. (5) Cincinnati Fireworks

[Dreakmur]

Toronto St.Pats

(1919-1927)
Head Coach: Pete Green

Nels Stewart-Ron Francis(C)-Dave Taylor
Harry P. Watson(A)-Bernie Morris-Martin St. Louis
Percy Galbraith-Charlie Burns-Eric Nesterenko
Gerard Gallant-Bernie Nicholls-Leo Labine

Pierre Pilote(A)-Albert "Babe" Siebert
Art Ross-Ed Van Impe(A)
Brian Engblom-Doug Barkley

Ken Dryden
John Ross Roach

Spares:
Mike Rogers, C
Cecil Blachford, F
Fredrik Olausson, D
Joe Juneau, C/LW

Special Teams:
PP1: Babe Siebert-Nels Stewart-Martin St.Louis-Pierre Pilote-Art Ross
PP2: Bernie Nicholls-Bernie Morris-Dave Taylor-Ron Francis-Doug Barkley

PK1: Charlie Burns-Eric Nesterenko-Babe Siebert- Ed Van Impe
PK2: Percy Galbraith-Ron Francis-Brian Engblom-Pierre Pilote
PK3: Bernie Nicholls-Martin St. Louis-Brian Engblom-Ed Van Impe

Approximate Ice Time (in minutes)
Forwards

Name|ES|PP|SH|Total
Stewart|15|4|0|19
Francis|15|2|2.5|19.5
Taylor|15|3|0|18
Watson|13|0|0|13
Morris|13|3|0|16
St.Louis|13|4|1.5|18.5
Nesterenko|10|0|3|13
Burns|9|0|3|12
Galbraith|9|0|2.5|11.5
Nicholls|10|3|0|13
Gallant|8|0|0|8
Labine|8|0|0|8

Defensemen

Name|ES|PP|SH|Total
Pilote|20|5|0|25
Siebert|17|4|3|24
Ross|16.5|5|0|22.5
Van Impe|14.5|0|5|19.5
Engblom|12|0|4|17
Barkley|12|2|0|14

Pilote-Siebert: 17 Mins
Ross-Van Impe: 14 mins
Engblom-Barkley: 12 mins
Pilote-Ross: 2.5 mins
Pilote-Impe: 0.5 min

Galbraith-Burns-Nesterenko: 8 mins
Galbraith-Nicholls-Nesterenko: 1 min
Burns-Nicholls-Nesterenko: 1 min

VS.

CINCINNATI FIREWORKS

Head Coach: Jacques Demers

Bert Olmstead - Darryl Sittler (A) - Bernie Geoffrion
Dean Prentice - Paul Ronty - Ed Litzenberger (C)
Red Berenson - Art Chapman - Dolly Swift
Shayne Corson - Rick Meagher - Jerry Toppazzini

Extra: Danny Grant LW/RW, Marc Savard

Larry Robinson (A) - Allan Stanley
Vitaly Davydov - Viktor Kuzkin (A)
Paul Shmyr - Mathieu Schneider

Extra: Larry Hillman, Bob Turner

Bernie Parent
Gerry Mcneil


PP1: Olmstead - Sittler - Litzenberger
Geoffrion - Robinson

PP2: Berenson - Ronty - Swift
Schneider - Kuzkin

PK1: Prentice -Toppazzini
Robinson - Stanley

PK2: Berenson - Meagher
Kuzkin - Davydov​

Click to read more...

 

[Dreakmur]

Have fun and good luck!

 

[markrander87]

Thanks a lot for the voters who put me through. I wish I had more time to post. Just watched team Canada vs czech sold out exibition game at the u2 arena. Anyways I feel my team is Taylor made for this series. Robinson is perfect to out against there only offensive threat in Stewart. My forward lines will grind down low and wear down there defenseman and keep the play in there end. There bottom 2 lines bring little to no offense. That's all I have time for now

 

[Dwight]

Enjoy your travels, mark.

Shame you aren't here, and shame this match-up isn't taking place in a steel cage

 

[Leafs Forever]

Good luck to my opponent.

Edit: All St. Pats main arguements are linked/summarized here. To see more detail on responses and counter-responses, go through thread.

The Summary of the Toronto St. Pats Arguements

Click on a the line/pairing to see the comparison done on it.

First lines: Nels Stewart vs Geoffrion Verdict: Wash offensively, sight edge Geoffrion.

First Lines: The rest Verdict: Small edge St. Pats on overall top lines.

Second Lines Verdict: Big edge St. Pats

Bottom-6s: Regular Season Offense Verdict: Moderate edge Fireworks in terms of raw regular season offensive talent.

Bottom-6s: The Rest Verdict: Offense is wash (all factors considered), St. Pats have good edge in intangibles. Overall, St. Pats have bottom-6 Edge.

Top Pairings Verdict: Slight edge Fireworks

Goaltending/Coaching: Verdict: Goaltending is edge St. Pats, Coaching is Wash

Special Teams Edge St. Pats on PP, Moderate edge Fireworks on PK. Small edge St. Pats on special teams overall.

Fighting the Robinson Factor and Loose Matchup Plan

Second and Third Pairings (Not as in-Depth or certain). Moderate Edge St. Pats on both.

-The St. Pats feel our top-6 offense, in particular our second line, will be able to be the scoring difference in this series. This is particularly considering the stronger defense and, in particular, the stronger toughness spread throughout the Toronto forward corps. The Forwards, I think, the St. Pats have a good edge overall.

-Though the defense corps are on the close side, I think the Toronto St. Pats have a slight edge, particularly in the department of gamebreaking offense with Pilote and Ross on their pairings.

-Goaltending is a good edge for the St. Pats and will make a good difference here in their support.

-Another key aspect, I think, is the St. Pats rather stronger toughness. Our forwards have, I feel, a stronger toughness that is spread throughout (elaborated in forward comparisons), and once past Robinson on the defense-corps (and Pilote is a pretty tough guy himself), the St. Pats top-4 and defense overall is a lot tougher. The extra ability to out-hit, out-battle, and wear down opponents is a good one in a playoff series.

Final Conclusion: The St. Pats will be able to battle through and defeat this challenging team.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

1. Is Nels Stewart really a guy you need to have a forward shadowing?

2. While LF's first line does depend an awful lot on Stewart to finish plays, St. Louis should be considered a very high end second liner by now and Morris is quite good too. Not as sold on Watson, though.

 

[Stoneberg]

While a forwards support may help a bit, the brunt of the threat from a net front presence like Stewart can be handled by a legendary beast like Robinson... in my opinion.

 

[Leafs Forever]

Fair enough on Stewart, though I'd argue that his lethality, ability to score from more than just the net (he was known for his shot and "ability to score from any angle") would ideally have more than Robinson as a defense. (Plus there's the factor of home-ice and Robinson seemingly be the only player on the Fireworks that has the skillset to handle Stewart).

 

[seventieslord]

While a forwards support may help a bit, the brunt of the threat from a net front presence like Stewart can be handled by a legendary beast like Robinson... in my opinion.

I was going to say the same thing.

A big bast@rd like Robinson is what you need to contain a guy like Stewart.

 

[jarek]

The thing is, if Robinson focuses on Stewart, I'm not sure how much that first line can do. Robinson is probably the anti-Stewart. I'm not sure how effective Stewart will really be. A lot of the offensive burden is going to be on the Morris and Nicholls lines, IMO.

 

[Leafs Forever]

The thing is, if Robinson focuses on Stewart, I'm not sure how much that first line can do. Robinson is probably the anti-Stewart. I'm not sure how effective Stewart will really be. A lot of the offensive burden is going to be on the Morris and Nicholls lines, IMO.

You speak as if the home-ice team will be looking to have Stewart out when Robinson is.

One should also not discount offense from the blue-line.

 

[jarek]

You speak as if the home-ice team will be looking to have Stewart out when Robinson is.

One should also not discount offense from the blue-line.

I'm just looking specifically at Robinson vs. Stewart. There are obviously other factors.

 

[BraveCanadian]

1. Is Nels Stewart really a guy you need to have a forward shadowing?

2. While LF's first line does depend an awful lot on Stewart to finish plays, St. Louis should be considered a very high end second liner by now and Morris is quite good too. Not as sold on Watson, though.

I go back and forth about Stewart.

As far as St. Louis goes, yes, I'd say he is a high end second liner. I'm a big fan.

That being said, I'm also a big fan of Robinson in this series too. The guy could get it done any way it had to be done. Coaches are going to matter in this one to get that matchup going. Toronto has home ice so that helps them.. they'll have to do it on the fly.

 

[markrander87]

I'm back on Wednesday. Regarding no forward. I'm pretty confident toppazzini,meagher,prentice , litz, corson are all more than capable to play with Stewart. Yes you have home ice advantage but let's be honest it's fairly easy to get a dman like Robinson who is known for his endurance and can play close to 28 minutes a night to shut down Stewart. Also I would like to point out I feel as though I have the best type of 2nd pairing to match up against a guy like St louis on a second line. I can buy him as slightly above average but lets remember the forgettable years he had early in his career. I'd still like some explanation for van impe in the top 4. He is by far the worst top 4 dman in this series. Bernie Nichols is a good 4 th liner but an offensive guy like him won't be able to find his rythym playing what 8-10 minutes a night.

 

[Sturminator]

It's not only Robinson. Allan Stanley arguably matches up against Stewart even better from a skillset standpoint. Stanley was big, physical and slow-footed - close to the perfect counter to Stewart.

That being said, the Ross - Morris - St. Louis constellation on Toronto's second unit is extremely dangerous, and I definitely prefer Dryden to Parent.

 

[markrander87]

Thats a good point regarding Stanley. If need be the fireworks can pair stanley with kuzkin on the second pairing as Taylor and Francis are both not a threat offensively to score goals. I'd like to point out the large advantage the fireworks have regarding 1st lines. Also regarding 2nd lines we have 3 legitimate 2nd liners and I'm not sold on Watson. Van impe is a black hole on the second pairing and that third line provides zero offense. Yes your 4th line is good offensively but my third line is better offensively and I'm not sure there is a big difference between your third and my 4th line

 

[markrander87]

I'm not concerned with the two time conn smythe winner between the pipes. I feel as though my team is Taylor made to beat this team but I have to leave it in the voters hands.

 

[jarek]

I'm not concerned with the two time conn smythe winner between the pipes. I feel as though my team is Taylor made to beat this team but I have to leave it in the voters hands.

Why are you not sold on Watson? Because he's always been a 4th liner? He's always been good enough to be a third liner in a 32 team draft.. and 32 left wingers had to be promoted to the 2nd line. Harry Watson was definitely one of those wingers.

Also, can you elaborate on why your team is tailor made to defeat the other team? I mean, I get the whole thing about Stewart, but you have done nothing to show that you'll be able to slow down the dangerous 2nd line of the St. Pats.

 

[Leafs Forever]

I'm back on Wednesday. Regarding no forward. I'm pretty confident toppazzini,meagher,prentice , litz, corson are all more than capable to play with Stewart. Yes you have home ice advantage but let's be honest it's fairly easy to get a dman like Robinson who is known for his endurance and can play close to 28 minutes a night to shut down Stewart. Also I would like to point out I feel as though I have the best type of 2nd pairing to match up against a guy like St louis on a second line. I can buy him as slightly above average but lets remember the forgettable years he had early in his career. I'd still like some explanation for van impe in the top 4. He is by far the worst top 4 dman in this series. Bernie Nichols is a good 4 th liner but an offensive guy like him won't be able to find his rythym playing what 8-10 minutes a night.

Prentice is a LW, Meagher is a centre, Coroson is a LW, I'd like evidence of Litz being something defensively, and Toppazzini is on the fourth line.

That does leave a solid 32 minutes of Robinson off the ice that Stewart can get some time playing in.

St. Louis "slightly above average"? St. Louis is a legit top-line RW in this. Since 2000/2001 (the time St. Louis got productive), which represents the majority of Iginla's quality offensive years, St. Louis has scored 94% of Iginla, a well accepted above-average top line RW. "Forgettable years"? Not every player lights it up from the get-go, and that's not really too abnormal.

What makes Van Impe that much worse than Kuzkin? Van Impe is a warrior type and quality defensive D-man, which should not be discounted; I'm going to try and take a closer look.

Bernie Nicholls is playing 13 minutes a night all told. I don't see Chapman, the staple offensive player of the bottom-6 on your team, getting much if at all more, so if Nicholls isn't going to find "rythm" with his ice-time, neither is Chapman.

like to point out the large advantage the fireworks have regarding 1st lines. Also regarding 2nd lines we have 3 legitimate 2nd liners and I'm not sold on Watson. Van impe is a black hole on the second pairing and that third line provides zero offense. Yes your 4th line is good offensively but my third line is better offensively and I'm not sure there is a big difference between your third and my 4th line

It's far from large as I am going to demonstrate later today, if an advantage at all. I'm fairly certain the Prentice vs Watson (who I do think is a legitimate 2nd line glue-guy here) is not a big a gap as Morris-St. Louis vs Ronty-Litzenburger, but I will have to look into it.

What context do you mean "black hole", exactly? Offensively, sure, but that's why Ross, an elite 2nd-pairing puckmover, is his partner. Defensively and toughness, not the case, and he certainly has some good capability against secondary scorers.

Again, why is it that the only thing you want to look at in a third line is offense? Because it favours you, who decided to forgo intangibles in your third line? Not all third lines have to provide offense, and that should not be frowned upon if they can do other things in quality fashion.

Well, I'm not sure there's a big difference between your third line and my fourth line either.

 

[Sturminator]

Also regarding 2nd lines we have 3 legitimate 2nd liners and I'm not sold on Watson.

I have to agree with Boy Wonder here. Watson is definitely deserving of a 2nd line glue role at 40 teams. He's not high end in the role, but he's not out of place, either.

 

[markrander87]

Regarding your 1st line I'd like to remind everybody of the poor poor defensive play that Stewart has. Yes Francis is good defensively but clearly by him having to focus on covering for Stewart it will effect his offense will it not?? I'm not concerned with his 2nd line as either one of my 4 lines have strong defensive players so St louis will be covered fairly closely. Id still like to point out I can sit up Robinson and Stanley if need be (which I don't think I'll have too) to watch Stewart. Taylor and Francis who will have to cover for Stewart will not be a threat offensively. If I had to build a line around Stewart I would of wanted a lot more offensive rw then Dave Taylor.

 

[jarek]

You seem to ignore the fact that Stewart did what he did DESPITE heavy checking. Larry Robinson won't make Stewart completely inept. I also think the statement that Francis won't be a factor offensively quite a joke, to be honest. In the offensive zone, he and Taylor won't just be hanging back because they're scared of Stewart not checking back. They will attack, just like they would with any other LW.

Also, you very much should be concerned with his 2nd line. That is an elite 2nd line offensively, IMO.

 

[markrander87]

Let's ask a question. Who has the better offense from their top 6? Also keep in mind common sense that 1st lines get more ice time. What are St louis point finishes?? I'd really like other gm's input on the top 6 offense players. I keep bringing up Robinson because clearly he is a huge factor. Did stewart ever play against a physical beast like Robinson before?? Also who does he plan on playing against my first line?? I assume it's his third which will be another advantage for cinncinati as they provide no offense and will be on the I e for roughly 20-22 minutes a game.

 

[markrander87]

How is it that we should think. His third line will shut down my 1st line (if they are) if they are only playing 8-10 es minutes a game?? Who else will play against them? Geoffrion would have a field day with Stewart against him and the 2nd line would be forced to play a rough tough checking board game which does not benefit St louis at all with dirty Bert olmstead giving him the business along the boards.

 

[markrander87]

How is it that we should think. His third line will shut down my 1st line (if they are) if they are only playing 8-10 es minutes a game?? Who else will play against them? Geoffrion would have a field day with Stewart against him and the 2nd line would be forced to play a rough tough checking board game which does not benefit St louis at all with dirty Bert olmstead giving him the business along the boards. Either line that he puts out for the reminding minutes against my 1st has a terrible match up. Either Stewart/geoffrion or St louis/olmstead. When our first line is out against their 2nd we will focus in on dump and chase and physical play which demers as a coach loves.